What do you use for pulling decoctions?

[Gavin C]

I've been playing around this last few brews with different mashing methods with my BIAB setup.

I do full volume mashing and have tackled direct firing the mash-tun and infusions to achieve my target rests in multi-step mashes. Infusions were a lot easier.

This was my most recent mash. Infusions to hit each sacch. rest and then a single decoction to raise it to mash-out. After some reading it seems acid and protein rests are not indicated with fully modified malts and doing them can be detrimental.

Mash Schedule for an Alt.



I'm doing this, not for any efficiency gains but to see what flavors and differing mouthfeels I can get. It's also fun to challenge onself and try to learn these mashing techniques.

One area where I feel the full-volume mash complicates things a little, was in pulling the decoction volume to get to mash-out. It was not easy to get a thick decoction owing to the thin mash.

One solution would be to pull the decoction earlier on in the mash when it was thicker (if doing infusions) but I would prefer to restrict my decoction to reaching mash-out for the time being.

I was wondering if anyone does something similar and has any ideas what type of scoop to use to pull a grain-heavy decoction when working with a very thin main-mash.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Not sure what volumes your looking to pull out of the mash, but perhaps a large, long handled commercial soup ladle would work.

 

[Gavin C]

Not sure what volumes your looking to pull out of the mash, but perhaps a large, long handled commercial soup ladle would work.

This or something like it was what I was thinking but before trawling amazon only to find a better solution on HBT after the fact I thought I'd ask the think-tank. Thanks for the suggestion.

Small enough decoction. Less than two gallons. If I come up short I'm direct firing to mash-out anyway. Only tried it once so far and want to refine my process for the next time.

 

[IslandLizard]

I use a large colander, but it doesn't have as many holes as I want. I tried a mesh strainer, which would be ideal, but the handle can't "handle" the weight. I found the key is to mash thinner, like 2 qt/lb.

 

[wobdee]

Give this a whirl. Mash in at 150 for 15-20 min, drain enzyme rich wort from your kettle to a cooler until you get an oatmeal consistent mash then slowly heat your mash to boil and boil for 30 min. Turn off heat cool down mash to about 170 then return your wort liquid back from cooler to the main mash to reach a 30-45 min rest at 155-160.

 

[Gavin C]

I use a large colander, but it doesn't have as many holes as I want. I tried a mesh strainer, which would be ideal, but the handle can't "handle" the weight. I found the key is to mash thinner, like 2 qt/lb.

My mash is thinner than that. Full-volume no-sparge mashing. Decoction being pulled to reach mash-out is the plan.

 

[giraffe]

I use a 1 gallon measuring cup/pitcher, I got from a restaurant supply store for 3$. It works great, Ive done hundred of decoctions with it. (and its a measuring cup, so you know how much you are pulling for consistency's sake.) I hold the pitcher against the side of the mash tun to drain any extra water. Also useful from the resturant supply store is a mesh strainer with a long handle. If you want to just scoop some grain, without any liquid.

 

[giraffe]

Wait... if you are pulling a decoction for mash out, you want to pull liquid. If you pull grain, you will release more starch, that wont convert cause you are at mashout.

The mashout decoction produces little flavor or efficiency benefits. The thick decoctions between protein, and the one or two sac rests are the more important ones (if they do anything anyway). I usually do those as decoctions and infuse with boiling water for mash out to save time.

 

[fredfoodphilly]

this is the best thing to use

 

[Gavin C]

Give this a whirl. Mash in at 150 for 15-20 min, drain enzyme rich wort from your kettle to a cooler until you get an oatmeal consistent mash then slowly heat your mash to boil and boil for 30 min. Turn off heat cool down mash to about 170 then return your wort liquid back from cooler to the main mash to reach a 30-45 min rest at 155-160.

Thanks for that Wodbee. I looking to keep it a bit more simple with regard to the decoction. But that sounds like a workable solution for sure. I'm not looking to add a cooler to my basic setup.

Stove Top BIAB Setup for Infusion Step Mash and Decoction

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

Wait... if you are pulling a decoction for mash out, you want to pull liquid. If you pull grain, you will release more starch, that wont convert cause you are at mashout.

The mashout decoction produces little flavor or efficiency benefits. The thick decoctions between protein, and the one or two sac rests are the more important ones (if they do anything anyway). I usually do those as decoctions and infuse with boiling water for mash out to save time.

Full volume BIAB they are probably already grinding very very fine anyway so I'd bet there's not a whole ton of starch release. More than likely conversion has already occurred and at a very high percent. I've pulled decoctions to achieve mash out temps and haven't had issues with starch release.

I use a Pampered Chef pasta scoop thing, can get about 24oz of grain with each scoop and has holes to drain thin mash. You could try pulling your bag up and out a little to get the grain close to the surface and you wouldn't need such a long handle.

 

[Gavin C]

I use a 1 gallon measuring cup/pitcher, I got from a restaurant supply store for 3$. It works great, Ive done hundred of decoctions with it. (and its a measuring cup, so you know how much you are pulling for consistency's sake.) I hold the pitcher against the side of the mash tun to drain any extra water. Also useful from the resturant supply store is a mesh strainer with a long handle. If you want to just scoop some grain, without any liquid.

I've got a measuring jug but want something with a long handle as the grain is all down the bottom of the thin mash.

Wait... if you are pulling a decoction for mash out, you want to pull liquid. If you pull grain, you will release more starch, that wont convert cause you are at mashout.

I thought conversion was all done at that stage after rests at 140, 150 and 158. Iodine test certainly showed no starch but perhaps if i crushed up some of the grist in the test sample that might be different.

The mashout decoction produces little flavor or efficiency benefits. The thick decoctions between protein, and the one or two sac rests are the more important ones (if they do anything anyway). I usually do those as decoctions and infuse with boiling water for mash out to save time.

I would have thought conversion was all done at that stage after rests at 140, 150 and 158. Iodine test certainly showed no starch but perhaps if i crushed up some of the grist in the test sample that might be different.

My post boil sample was nice and clear. I didn't see any sign of starch haze.

OG and sample




Not looking for any efficiency changes. Doing this partly to experiment with the process and partly to test the results.

I'm not sure if doing a protein or acid rest is indicated with the fully converted malts. I suppose the same can be said of any decoction. What little homework I have done seems to indicate these lower temperature rests can have bad effects on the beer. Disclaimer: I have much to learn about this subject so I certainly am not calling into question your advice. Thanks for it BTW. Much appreciated.

Edit the one decoction I did pull was very thin so unintentionally I seemed to have done what you advise.

 

[Gavin C]

this is the best thing to use

That looks like the right tool for the job. Do you have a link?

 

[Gavin C]

Full volume BIAB they are probably already grinding very very fine anyway so I'd bet there's not a whole ton of starch release. More than likely conversion has already occurred and at a very high percent. I've pulled decoctions to achieve mash out temps and haven't had issues with starch release.

I use a Pampered Chef pasta scoop thing, can get about 24oz of grain with each scoop and has holes to drain thin mash. You could try pulling your bag up and out a little to get the grain close to the surface and you wouldn't need such a long handle.

Yes grinding fine hence the shorter rest times. Mash efficiency for the batch was ~88% BH efficiency 80%

Good idea on lifting the bag. Hadn't thought of that.

 

[SpeedYellow]

A simple 1-qt glass pyrex measuring cup works perfectly fine, and you probably already have one on hand.

 

[Gavin C]

Yes. I have one in the two cup variety. I does not reach much of the grain unless my arm is in the hot mash. Looking for something long handled

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

Yes grinding fine hence the shorter rest times. Mash efficiency for the batch was ~88% BH efficiency 80%

Good idea on lifting the bag. Hadn't thought of that.

I have a metal basket that holds my bag so that's how I get away with this, I couldn't tell from your pictures if you have a metal basket so that might make it hard for you to raise that bag without spill grain all over. So that shoots some holes in my idea.

 

[Gavin C]

I have a metal basket that holds my bag so that's how I get away with this, I couldn't tell from your pictures if you have a metal basket so that might make it hard for you to raise that bag without spill grain all over. So that shoots some holes in my idea.

No basket. Messiness would be my concern with this approach also. I like a clean neat brew area. So does the SWMBO.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

No basket. Messiness would be my concern with this approach also. I like a clean neat brew area. So does the SWMBO.

That long handled ladle looks to be your best option, I want one of those but I'm a huge cheap skate. You could just take a small drill bit and put holes in the bottom and dside to allow drainage.

 

[Gavin C]

I reckon I don't need the holes. Once I can reach the grain bed I'll be able to drain any liquid with ease on the pot wall.

Holes+mash=mess on stove perhaps

 

[wilserbrewer]

That long handled ladle looks to be your best option, I want one of those but I'm a huge cheap skate. .

Well, there's also the soup can fastened on a stick for the practical budget minded....

Maybe for a one time deal idk...

 

[jmpreiks]

Well, there's also the soup can fastened on a stick for the practical budget minded....

Maybe for a one time deal idk...

Haha love the soup can idea.

 

[giraffe]

I'm not sure if doing a protein or acid rest is indicated with the fully converted malts. I suppose the same can be said of any decoction. What little homework I have done seems to indicate these lower temperature rests can have bad effects on the beer. Disclaimer: I have much to learn about this subject so I certainly am not calling into question your advice. Thanks for it BTW. Much appreciated.

Edit the one decoction I did pull was very thin so unintentionally I seemed to have done what you advise.

Rests at 131 for a high protein rest can help with clarity and head retention even with fully modified malts. And the sac rest can be split with a mid 140s rest, and then a high 150s rest (you are doing something similar). This is typically done in lager breweries to have more control over the fermentability of the wort. Probably not necessary on our scale, but it gets a thick decoction in. A feulic acid rest around 105-115 can be used for hefes and the like.

(I dont do BIAB, so I grind thicker, and a 20 minute decoction will also break more starch out of the kernel, traditionally the last decoction is done very thin for this reason.)

 

[Cyclman]

Webstraunt is a great source: http://www.webstaurantstore.com/24-oz-two-piece-ladle/92258540.html

 

[Gavin C]

Webstraunt is a great source: http://www.webstaurantstore.com/24-oz-two-piece-ladle/92258540.html

Thanks for the link @cyclman Much appreciated

This looks like a great product and a great price.

 

[wilserbrewer]

This looks like a great product and a great price.

A nice big ladle like that can also serve you well for collecting yeast slurry from the bottom of a drained fermenter.

 

[Gavin C]

A nice big ladle like that can also serve you well for collecting yeast slurry from the bottom of a drained fermenter.

I might have a job getting it through the neck of my carboy.

I looked at that website and found a thing called a spoodle. Looks like it might work better but it is too small.

I reckon the 1 piece 24 oz ladle is the right tool for the job.

 

[fredfoodphilly]

That looks like the right tool for the job. Do you have a link?

Go to a local Restaurant Supply store, or the On-Line srores should have it google "flat bottom long handled ladle"

 

[Gavin C]

Go to a local Restaurant Supply store, or the On-Line srores should have it google "flat bottom long handled ladle"

Thanks Fredfoolphilly. I can't find a flat bottomed one in a one piece design so I'll probably get the large ladle shown earlier. Thanks for the help.

 

[Gavin C]

Thanks for all the helpful advice.

Got this one in the end. Just now.

32oz 1 piece Stainless steel.