What do you recomend to prevent clovelike flavors in pale ales?

[letsbrew]

Well i have noticed that when i brew pale ales with generous amount of wheat malt (15% to 50%) i get clovelike flavor.


I tried to add more wheat to get a neutral flavor and get more hop flavor.



Im sure there is no infection. I have readed that wheat malt has a lot of ferrulic acid that weizen yeast converts into clove flavor 4-vynil guaiacol but im not using weizen yeast im using US05.


Phenolic flavors and aromas in beer are most often described as clovey, spicey, smokey, band-aid-like, or medicinal flavors and aromas.

-Wild yeast produces band aid and medicinal flavor.
-Chlorine produces medicinal flavors.
-Mash and saparge,alkaline sparge water,sparge water above 76 C,high amounts of hops,some types of malt produces polyphenols that creates chill or permanent haze and astringency.

So im thinking in the generous amounts of wheat malt Weyerman that in using. But in not sure.

Can high fermentation temps could create clove flavor? any hint? in my darker beers i have no problems. In the pale ales i used bottled water that is softer.


All the best!

 

[letsbrew]

also Daniel's book sais that the wheat flavor has some malty spicyness, could be this description the clovelike flavor i found?

 

[letsbrew]

before bottling the beer tastes very nice a nice falvor but once is carbonating the clove flavor developes, for me is not an infection because i follow the same thecnique for alkaline cleaning,rinsing and acid santizing for all my beer styles (the paler beers comes or develope the clove flavor after bottling)

 

[bb239605]

I had this same problem when I moved to Omaha. I was only there for nine months so I just brought stuff for extract batches. Every time I brewed I got that same flavor you are describing. No noticeable problems until I carb'd it up. So what I Am guessing it was that it was something to do with the water, I.e. It had chlorine in it, and the flavor didn't become apparent until the co2 helped release it from the beer. I honestly have Bo idea what else it could have been cause each time I brewed I became more meticulous and had that problem every time. I hated it and after three batches I stopped. Thank goodness I am in KC now and have not had aroblem since.

 

[Rip]

Just some ideas, off the cuff:

Ferment below 67F

Drop most or all of the wheat, anything over 5% is too much for a hoppy pale ale (just my personal experience & preference).

Remove a portion of the malt from recipe and add table sugar in it's place - this will lower the FG and body of the beer.

Use some other adjunct (other than wheat) - maybe flaked corn or instanst rice or somesuch.

Treat brewing water with campden to remove any phenolic precursors - Campden tablets (aka sodium metabisulfite) remove the chlorine/chloramine and also add a little SO to help with the hoppy flavor.

mix & match above... ?

 

[letsbrew]

I had this same problem when I moved to Omaha. I was only there for nine months so I just brought stuff for extract batches. Every time I brewed I got that same flavor you are describing. No noticeable problems until I carb'd it up. So what I Am guessing it was that it was something to do with the water, I.e. It had chlorine in it, and the flavor didn't become apparent until the co2 helped release it from the beer. I honestly have Bo idea what else it could have been cause each time I brewed I became more meticulous and had that problem every time. I hated it and after three batches I stopped. Thank goodness I am in KC now and have not had aroblem since.

Good point, it makes sense that CO2 releases that annoying flavor i was using a carbon filter but i dont remember when i had to replace the cartridge so maybe in getting some cholrine. Did you brew dark beers when you were in Omaha?

When i brew dark beer no issues.

 

[letsbrew]

Just some ideas, off the cuff:

Ferment below 67F

Drop most or all of the wheat, anything over 5% is too much for a hoppy pale ale (just my personal experience & preference).

Remove a portion of the malt from recipe and add table sugar in it's place - this will lower the FG and body of the beer.

Use some other adjunct (other than wheat) - maybe flaked corn or instanst rice or somesuch.

Treat brewing water with campden to remove any phenolic precursors - Campden tablets (aka sodium metabisulfite) remove the chlorine/chloramine and also add a little SO to help with the hoppy flavor.

mix & match above... ?

Nice! i dont know why i havent tought about using another more neutral ingredient with sugar will make drier the beer and for me thats very refreshing also the rice works and i came up with the idea of using 6 row malt that i got 22kg so i could mix with pale ale malt instead of using to much wheat malt, and yes i agrree a hoppy pale ale its very great. Today mi bro will get me some new cartdiriges for my filter,some chlorine strips testers and also i should get some camped tablets.

In the morning i was reading in another forum a brewer with the same trouble so it seems quite a bit that some brewers find that clovelike when we followed the wheat path hehehe.

 

[BigEd]

It's not the ingredients, it's the procedures. If you are getting clove-like flavors and are not using any spices or yeasts strains that deliberately produce it then it is almost certainly one of two things. Your fermentation temperature is too high and/or your cleaning & sanitizing are not up to snuff. Many standard yeasts will produce unusual flavors if fermented too high as will many wild yeasts and bacteria.

 

[passedpawn]

Wild yeast maybe. I've collected my own wild yeast (off berries) and brewed with it and got clove flavors, even with careful temp control. So, check your sanitation on brewday.

 

[letsbrew]

for example i brewed a pale ale one friday, next day i brewed a robust porter in 2 weeks i bottled them, the pale ale tasted great and porter too i bottled first the pale ale 50%pale malt-50%wheat malt,next day the porter after 2 weeks carbonating the pale ale tasted clovelike and robust porter tasted even better with no clovelike. That was las September, in Octuber once again first another robust porter, next day pale ale 85% pale malt-15%wheat malt and i got the same, clove flavor in the pale beer and a great flavor in my robust porter.

For the pale ale i used bottled water and for my robust porter tap water.

Actually i dont think or i doubt it could be an infection i have made some test to see what happened by not using alkaline cleaning and always i didnt make an alkaline cleaning the beer got the famous neck ring and the taste turned always sour.


My cleaning procedure is to use PBW or OXiclean for 30min contact time, the Ph remains at least at 11.

My rising techique is to use tap water, months ago i was getting the tap water from my filter now i havent used it cos i have to change some parts.


Finally i use Starsan 6ml per 4 liters of bottled water to get a Ph of 3 (if i use tap water the Ph gets higher and it turns cloudy) so with my acid sanitizer i put everything in contact for 1 min , then i ust drain them.


So what im doing is to break the cell membrane of bad criters by changing their emviroment Ph.


Now you both said temperature, where i live i got 28 C in my cellar (if i can called that way hehe) i only can control my temp in my little fridge where i use for lager, but in my storage room i have no way of control temp yet, so thats another path i can follow.

 

[BigEd]

Now you both said temperature, where i live i got 28 C in my cellar (if i can called that way hehe) i only can control my temp in my little fridge where i use for lager, but in my storage room i have no way of control temp yet, so thats another path i can follow.

28C is far too warm to ferment or condition beer. Sorry but that is very basic brewing knowledge. You will do yourself and your beer a big favor if you buy and read a copy of a good homebrewing book like Palmer's "How to Brew". There's nothing wrong with asking help questions on the forums but some simple background information would have prevented the problem in the first place.

 

[erikhild59]

I've had clove flavor in my cream ale with no wheat, I think the us05 is the cause. There have been reports of this off~flavor associated with it lately.

 

[letsbrew]

28C is far too warm to ferment or condition beer. Sorry but that is very basic brewing knowledge. You will do yourself and your beer a big favor if you buy and read a copy of a good homebrewing book like Palmer's "How to Brew". There's nothing wrong with asking help questions on the forums but some simple background information would have prevented the problem in the first place.

yes i have three books the problem is the space,the hot climate in my country and hot summer maybe i have to get a small and cheap jacket fermenter (a controlled temp room it seems expensive but winter is coming

 

[letsbrew]

I've had clove flavor in my cream ale with no wheat, I think the us05 is the cause. There have been reports of this off~flavor associated with it lately.

interesting that there are some reports about us05 . The cream ale you said at what temp did you brew it?

 

[emjay]

Wild yeast maybe. I've collected my own wild yeast (off berries) and brewed with it and got clove flavors, even with careful temp control. So, check your sanitation on brewday.

I am thinking this too. Wild yeasts are often a source of unwanted phenols.

 

[letsbrew]

guys going back to my notes in January 2010 i brew a beer with 33% wheat and i used s-33 yeast it was winter and the beer came up with no clove flavors.

In February 2010 i brewed a pale ale with 91% pale malt, 5% caramel 40 and 4% meladoinine malt, i used US05, beer without clove character.

But last pales were brewed during hot months from April to September-Octuber with these flavors my other beer came uo very good, old ale,porter,stout,irish red,vienna,barley wine so darkers beers.

Palmer says that medicinal, ban aidlike, and clove comes from initial produced phenols by yeast, due to chlorophenols from cholrines and wild yeast and winning-homebrew dot com says another things so ill take advice for all of your comments =)

 

[erikhild59]

interesting that there are some reports about us05 . The cream ale you said at what temp did you brew it?

Fermented around 70F . I had it in the bathtub with frozen 2 liter bottles . I made 2 identical batches. 1st with wlp001 ,2nd with us05. 1st batch was excellent, 2nd was barely drinkable. I'm not saying with 100% certainty that its the yeast , but I think it was.

 

[letsbrew]

Fermented around 70F . I had it in the bathtub with frozen 2 liter bottles . I made 2 identical batches. 1st with wlp001 ,2nd with us05. 1st batch was excellent, 2nd was barely drinkable. I'm not saying with 100% certainty that its the yeast , but I think it was.

i will make some changes in the recipie, in my water profile, in my sparging,in my cleaning(overnight cleaning i will do) rinse with bottle water, maybe i will switch the sanitizer to iodophor(to change it for the criters) i was in a conference with the head of production of new belgium and he said they switch every week theirs sanitizers. Also i will make a filter screen to hold the more trub i can, controlling the temp maybe with and ice bath or something, i used US05 for some irish red too but they turned well and they were brewed during hot months, also a 2 more pale ales with Nottinham yeast and they has no clove.

make changes to try to solve this and previous batches call them hefeweizen haha