What are your contrarian/"unpopular" beer opinions?

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GPP33 said:
I like this one! Maybe if you have a pump it'll work but I gave up trying to stir up an effective whirlpool long ago. Came to terms with the fact that it doesn't matter if a buch of crap makes it into the fermenter.
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Only time I care is if I'm not going to be able to give the beer a good cold crash. Hop floaties can lead to bottle bombs. Other kinds of trub into the fermentor I don't much care about.
 
Contrarian opinion:
Unless your base water has an unusual pH, you really don't need to worry about controlling mash pH.

Here's why:
Your grains should get you in the right ballpark all by themselves.
For those of you who check your pH every time, how often do you actually have to adjust it? My guess is not that often (again, unless your brew water has an unusual pH).

And if your pH is outside the optimal range by a point or two, the only thing you'll lose is a small his on enzymatic efficiency, which in the grand scheme of things won't throw your beer off by a noticeable amount.

Caveat: if you are using other additives that will change your pH, like SMB, you should monitor it because you are artificially modifying your water's natural pH.
 
Bosh said:
Only time I care is if I'm not going to be able to give the beer a good cold crash. Hop floaties can lead to bottle bombs. Other kinds of trub into the fermentor I don't much care about.
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Everything sinks in my fermenter, never had hop floaters. I always brew a little extra though so I can leave the really thick stuff in the kettle.
 
GPP33 said:
Everything sinks in my fermenter, never had hop floaters. I always brew a little extra though so I can leave the really thick stuff in the kettle.
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Well doing this:
1. Pour wort into fermentor with spigot on the bottom.
2. Pitch yeast.
3. Throw in loose dry hop a few days later.
4. Don't cold crash.
5. Bottle from spigot on bottom of primary fermentor.

Isn't a good idea. Been there done that. I'm smarter now.

With beers without enough hops in loose to goop stuff up I don't give a crap.
 
GPP33 said:
I like this one! Maybe if you have a pump it'll work but I gave up trying to stir up an effective whirlpool long ago. Came to terms with the fact that it doesn't matter if a buch of crap makes it into the fermenter.
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I just pass it all through a strainer. Catches the crap and aerates a bit too.
 
Cavpilot2000 said:
Contrarian opinion:
Unless your base water has an unusual pH, you really don't need to worry about controlling mash pH.

Here's why:
Your grains should get you in the right ballpark all by themselves.
For those of you who check your pH every time, how often do you actually have to adjust it? My guess is not that often (again, unless your brew water has an unusual pH).

And if your pH is outside the optimal range by a point or two, the only thing you'll lose is a small his on enzymatic efficiency, which in the grand scheme of things won't throw your beer off by a noticeable amount.

Caveat: if you are using other additives that will change your pH, like SMB, you should monitor it because you are artificially modifying your water's natural pH.
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Before I adjusted water my all-grain beer was aweful. Mash pH was too high due to alkalinity and my beers turned out astringent. The impact of being off slightly does seem to me to be far lower than many brewers think though.
 
rhys333 said:
Before I adjusted water my all-grain beer was aweful. Mash pH was too high due to alkalinity and my beers turned out astringent. The impact of being off slightly does seem to me to be far lower than many brewers think though.
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I made decent beers with a 3 vessel system for 3 years, after switching to BIAB 3 years ago(at the recommendation of my lbhs) my lighter beers really sucked and no one would admit to me that there was a strange bitterness on the finish everyone said it was hop bitterness, well after much reading I determined my mash ph had to be high due to the full volume mashing, the same guy that recommended BIAB had no answers for me, so after alittle more research i bought a cheap kh and gh aquarium kit using a calculator on kai's website i now add 1/2-1 tsp of calcium chloride and alittle acid malt according to ez water, problem solved


My unpopular opinion is notty is not a clean neutral yeast, the ester profile dominates my palate even fermented below 60* F unless i use it in an IPA, i've tried s-04 and mj's dark ale with similar results
 
Rhaop said:
My unpopular opinion is notty is not a clean neutral yeast, the ester profile dominates my palate even fermented below 60* F unless i use it in an IPA, i've tried s-04 and mj's dark ale with similar results
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Oh no! I'm presently fermenting a brew in my garage using Nottingham yeast, and with the garage temperature holding over the past 3-1/2 days of active fermentation at between 61 degrees and 63 degrees F. It's nearing completion (about 2.5 bubbles per minute as seen in the airlock, down from a high of a bit over 120). Now I'm concerned.

My unpopular opinion is that whereas it is necessary to adjust mash pH downward if above 5.5, it is not necessary to adjust mash pH upward if it is below 5.2. A recent Brulosophy exbeeriment was conducted whereby they brewed a batch that was mashed at pH 4.45, and it came out just fine. And the panel of taste testers could not determine any statistical difference from the same batch brewed at a mash pH of 5.3. It took 19 ml of 88% lactic acid to get the 5 gallon batch to mash at pH 4.45, and the panel of taste testers couldn't detect the presence of lactic acid tainted flavoring either, again finding it statistically indistinguishable from the control batch. A two for one disproof of myths currently accepted as common logic. It can't get much more contrarian than this.
 
"Oh no! I'm presently fermenting a brew in my garage using Nottingham yeast, and with the garage temperature holding over the past 3-1/2 days of active fermentation at between 61 degrees and 63 degrees F. It's nearing completion (about 2.5 bubbles per minute as seen in the airlock, down from a high of a bit over 120). Now I'm concerned."


I wouldn't be concerned the batches i fermented with notty didn't goto waste friends and family loved them, it's just not my cup of tea, I won't lie though I haven't used liquid British yeasts yet afraid to dip my toe in the water so to speak lol
 
Rhaop said:
I wouldn't be concerned the batches i fermented with notty didn't goto waste friends and family loved them, it's just not my cup of tea, I won't lie though I haven't used liquid British yeasts yet afraid to dip my toe in the water so to speak lol
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What is your opinion of Fermentis SafeAle US-05 vs. Nottingham for cleanness? Was Nottingham as bad in this regard as S-04?
 
Rhaop said:
I made decent beers with a 3 vessel system for 3 years, after switching to BIAB 3 years ago(at the recommendation of my lbhs) my lighter beers really sucked and no one would admit to me that there was a strange bitterness on the finish everyone said it was hop bitterness, well after much reading I determined my mash ph had to be high due to the full volume mashing, the same guy that recommended BIAB had no answers for me, so after alittle more research i bought a cheap kh and gh aquarium kit using a calculator on kai's website i now add 1/2-1 tsp of calcium chloride and alittle acid malt according to ez water, problem solved
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You may be on to something there. I don't often do light beers via full-volume mash. Most of my lagers and lighter beers are step infusion mashes or single infusion with batch sparge. So my experience indicating good beer without adjusting pH could be related to more traditional practices and not really using full volume much.
 
Silver_Is_Money said:
What is your opinion of Fermentis SafeAle US-05 vs. Nottingham for cleanness? Was Nottingham as bad in this regard as S-04?
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For my palate and my opinion i get great clean ales at any reasonable temp with 05, even my early batches six years ago with a wort chiller so small i could barely get the wort temp below 80, i still pitched high 70's and left the fermenter in the basement, it would be mid sixties by morning and never noticed ill effects, lol I wouldn't dream of doing that now though


Edit: and yes s-04 has a similar profile to my taste buds
 
Cavpilot2000 said:
You may be on to something there. I don't often do light beers via full-volume mash. Most of my lagers and lighter beers are step infusion mashes or single infusion with batch sparge. So my experience indicating good beer without adjusting pH could be related to more traditional practices and not really using full volume much.
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Yup my thoughts exactly, can't tell you how long i racked my brain on the web trying to diagnose an off flavor i never had before, it never dawned on me that the full volume mashing combined with my seasonal changing tap water was dooming my beers before i even milled the grain, now i never had to dump any of those beers but i knew something was off

The issue i had was listening to the advice of the lhbs and my cousin who is the self proclaimed brew master of the family, neither one knew of or ever mentioned mash ph
 
Vandulus said:
For me time is at a premium, so I'm more than happy to spend the money instead. Also I like many different styles so more than a six pack, quickly gets old. But hey, that's why I'm contrarian!

I do greatly respect those that invest the time and effort to come up with a great clone recipe. Salut!
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my clones are fresher and taste better than the bottled versions of the originals. the more i brew, the less i like *any* commercial bottled or canned beers.
 
Funny, I started using Nottingham recently and I prefer it (a lot) to US-05. I actually find it cleaner (ferm temps 65, slow ramp up to 70) than S-04 and US-05. Interesting.
 
Cavpilot2000 said:
Contrarian opinion:
Unless your base water has an unusual pH, you really don't need to worry about controlling mash pH.
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This isn't contrarian; it's dead wrong.

Your starting water pH has little to no bearing on mash pH. Alkalinity does, along with the grist being mashed.

Even in water with low/no alkalinity, with lighter grists some acid helps the pH drop into it's more optimal range.
 
The_Bishop said:
This isn't contrarian; it's dead wrong.

Your starting water pH has little to no bearing on mash pH. Alkalinity does, along with the grist being mashed.

Even in water with low/no alkalinity, with lighter grists some acid helps the pH drop into it's more optimal range.
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And that's the "dominant" opinion, which is why mine is the contrarian.
I understand that what you say is how you are "supposed to" do it, but I've never once measured pH nor adjusted it deliberately in any way, and the beers I've been making, including lighter styles like Helles and Pils, have been delicious.
If not measuring and adjusting pH is dead wrong, then the beers I've been making would be bad, but they're not.

Conventional wisdom and some degree of science is on your side.
Personal experience is on mine.

Now, with that said, as I discussed with another chap on this board, we think it may be due to the fact that I don't BIAB or No-Sparge with light styles (or really any of my German Lagers). I usually step mash, starting pretty thick, and batch sparge.
My understanding, backed up with the experience of others, is that full-volume mashing with light grain bills can lead to less-than-optimal pH ranges.
So it is possible that we are both correct, depending on techniques used in the mash.
But without even measuring my pH, I've been producing Helles and Pils that would stack up against anything you'll find in Germany (I spend a lot of time in Bavaria drinking a lot of German beer).
But perhaps it's my process that makes adjusting pH unnecessary.
 
schematix said:
Lot of science actually....

This is an example of "luck". Your process will fail you elsewhere.
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No to be argumentative, but there's lots of science saying you HAVE TO adjust pH?

So you are saying if a brewer lands in the corrrect pH range, it's pure luck and can't be because consistent process leads to consistent results?

Or perhaps the science suggests that IF you are not hitting appropriate pH, you can adjust into the appropriate range.

I'm leaning toward the latter because I have never seen a single piece of science that says you HAVE TO adjust your pH to be in the optimal range (meaning you can't get there without adjustments).
If there is such evidence, by all means, please provide links because I would welcome the education.
 
Cavpilot2000 said:
No to be argumentative, but there's lots of science saying you HAVE TO adjust pH?

So you are saying if a brewer lands in the corrrect pH range, it's pure luck and can't be because consistent process leads to consistent results?

Or perhaps the science suggests that IF you are not hitting appropriate pH, you can adjust into the appropriate range.

I'm leaning toward the latter because I have never seen a single piece of science that says you HAVE TO adjust your pH to be in the optimal range (meaning you can't get there without adjustments).
If there is such evidence, by all means, please provide links because I would welcome the education.
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Fair question, and i don't want to derail this thread too much. Mash pH is discussed at length in other threads and it should stay there.

My point is that if you have an average grist, and average water, you're probably going to be ok. But if you have something more extreme, say really soft water, and an acidic grain bill, or very alkaline water with a pale grist, you're going to make crappy beer. If you're not too extreme you'll probably still make beer though. It's possible that you're "lucky" enough to not be at the extremes that cause the most issues and end up with something halfway decent without really knowing why.

My own experience is that the best improvements to my beer were:
1. temp controlled fermentation
2. mash pH control
3. RO water (makes #2 easier but with a cleaner tasting base)
4. low oxygen process


These days i'd still put #1 as the end-all-be-all of brewing, but 2-3-4 are equally important to making a great beer. You can make beer without any of these though.
 
The_Bishop said:
This isn't contrarian; it's dead wrong.

Your starting water pH has little to no bearing on mash pH. Alkalinity does, along with the grist being mashed.

Even in water with low/no alkalinity, with lighter grists some acid helps the pH drop into it's more optimal range.
Click to expand...

And not to pick nits, but alkalinity is not the opposite of pH, it is the opposite of acidity.
So yes, starting water pH DOES bear on mash pH, especially if it is on the alkaline end of the oH spectrum (as opposed to the acid side of pH 7).
I'm going to assume you know that though and simply misspoke. Happens to us all.

And notice I never said pH doesn't matter. I simply said that it isn't necessary to adjust or even measure pH given the right processes.

I am actually going to buy a pH Meter very soon and I intend to start taking pH readings, but only because I am going to start experimenting with some different processes, so I want to see if they have an effect. When I stick to my current process, I will still take readings, but I'll bet my next paycheck that I won't need to make any adjustments.

So does pH matter? Yes.
Is it necessary to adjust pH if your process and water chemistry already gets you to the sweet spot?
Nope.
 
schematix said:
Fair question, and i don't want to derail this thread too much. Mash pH is discussed at length in other threads and it should stay there.

My point is that if you have an average grist, and average water, you're probably going to be ok. But if you have something more extreme, say really soft water, and an acidic grain bill, or very alkaline water with a pale grist, you're going to make crappy beer. If you're not too extreme you'll probably still make beer though. It's possible that you're "lucky" enough to not be at the extremes that cause the most issues and end up with something halfway decent without really knowing why.

My own experience is that the best improvements to my beer were:
1. temp controlled fermentation
2. mash pH control
3. RO water (makes #2 easier but with a cleaner tasting base)
4. low oxygen process


These days i'd still put #1 as the end-all-be-all of brewing, but 2-3-4 are equally important to making a great beer. You can make beer without any of these though.
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I'll buy that.
No arguments there.
 
Since waters alkalinity anions must always be balanced (charge neutralized) by the presence of cations, the pH of water has no relationship to the waters alkalinity. My well water is quite neutral at pH 7.2, yet is has a whopping 436 ppm of alkalinity (which is roughly 532 ppm of bicarbonate).
 
Don't shoot me, but Heady Topper is overrated. I like IPAs and DIPAs and love brewing them, but what is all the hype? I'm not paying $4 or $5 a can for a beer that is OK. I'd rather just drink a homebrew. Haha.
 
The various mash pH predicting spreadsheets and online software programs algorithms do not even point to (look at) your waters pH, since it is irrelevant. Change your input water pH and see for yourself.
 
Contrarian opinion (did not bother reading other 472 entries, aside from 1st)-
Too many beers out there and most of them are not great!
I think Bells 2 hearted is overrated!
Not everything needs to age in oak!
 
JediJoel said:
My contrarian beer opinion is that everything needs be aged in oak, including brewers. It helps the brewers mellow out and gives them a nice smokey, woody aroma. :D
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I love oak aged stouts,
Love my wine over oaked.
Love me some good oaky bourbon.
But don't need my sours, porters, sessions, lagers & ipa's all aged in oak.
Just too much for me!
 
Sour beers are overrated and only popular because they are beertrendy.
And you have to have a beard and wear cuffed skinny jeans with suspenders to enjoy them.
 
Sir, I believe you just called me a hipster and I take great umbrage at the very notion! I'll have you know you would not enjoy the sight of skinny jeans, beard, NOR suspenders anywhere on or near my ample frame. Methinks you need to drink better sours!
 
TANSTAAFB said:
Sir, I believe you just called me a hipster and I take great umbrage at the very notion! I'll have you know you would not enjoy the sight of skinny jeans, beard, NOR suspenders anywhere on or near my ample frame. Methinks you need to drink better sours!
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I'll call your umbrage and raise you a high dudgeon, sir!

I know, I know, to each his own, but I've tried several and only found one I would bother to reach for if presented a selection of both sour and non-sour beers. It's called Jetty from Castle Island Brewing in MA.
And I could do a Berlinerweiss on a hot day but I'd probably rather reach for a Pils or Helles.

But to each his own.

Disclaimer: No hipsters were harmed in the writing of this post.
Okay, maybe their feelings, but no actual injury was inflicted...
 
InkBird 300

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