What are the benefits of liquid yeast compared to dry?

[Denny]

Or buy two packs of Wyeast 1450

It's not like I get royalties!

 

[Yooper]

It's not like I get royalties!

LOL! Denny, you made me spit beer at my screen, darn it. (And that's not nearly as ladylike as it sounds, believe me. Bob gave me a real "WTF?" look.)

Just think of there was a Yooper yeast strain! It would never flocculate, finish fermenting, OR be quiet. It would sometimes feel like fermenting, and then go into retirement for a while. But then get back to work because it was bored.

The simple fact is that you can make beer with or without a starter with liquid yeast. But no one will argue that you can make a better beer by underpitching the yeast. Stressed yeast just doesn't perform as well as healthy yeast, causing potential attenuation problems as well as off-flavors. Just because you can get by without a starter at times doesn't mean you should.

 

[osagedr]

But...but...but...all my friends say they LOVE my beer, and I never use a starter!

 

[MrSpiffy]

I don't think the point was the act of making a starter is overwhelming but that for the first two or so batches you want to keep the overall brewing process as simple as possible. Yes making a starter is the best way to go, but I have made plenty of very tasty beers with only a simple smack pack. You do not have to make a starter, but you should.

This is what I meant by my post. Thanks for clarifying.

Just to add, I wasn't aware that starters were highly-recommended for liquid yeasts. I read most of Papazian's book, and it didn't mention much about starters. (I haven't gotten through the all-grain section, yet.) Even the smack packs say you can just whack them and toss them in after they take off. (Or just pitch as-is!) Then I see all of this talk about starters being recommended, which was confusing to me. I guess I still don't see why they're recommended, unless you're going for bigger beers and you don't feel like buying more than one pack of yeast. The only downside I see as of right now is lag time. I'll have to do some more research on this and learn more...

Darwin18, thanks for making me feel like the total n00b that I am. Looks like my first two brews will be "inferior".

osagedr, I think he meant that using liquid yeast without making a starter produces inferior beer. Not that dry yeast does so.

 

[Yooper]

Even the smack packs say you can just whack them and toss them in after they take off.

Well, yes, it does. But Prego brand spaghetti sauce says on the label "real Italian flavor!" I don't know if you've ever had Prego, but I would say the label may be inaccurate in that claim.

In other words, marketing is marketing. Not that they are lying, exactly, but the Wyeast label should say something more like, "Pitchable in wort up to 1.060 wort IF the yeast is extremely fresh, has been handled brilliantly by the shipper and LHBS, and by the homebrewer and never once been out of refrigeration or too cold either". The maybe a disclaimer, "if the yeast is more than a week or two old, use in 1.045 beers or less, unless you make a starter".

Their website does say this: The Activator™ package contains a minimum of 100 billion cells in a yeast slurry.. The Activator™ is designed to directly inoculate 5 gallons of standard strength ale wort (1.034-1.060 SG) with professional pitching rates. Alternatively, for pitching into cold conditions (34-58°F/ 1-14°C) or higher gravity wort, we recommend increasing this pitching rate. This can be achieved by pitching additional Activator™ packages or by making a starter culture. Please see the Pitch Rate section for additional information.

And then on their "Pitch Rate" section:
http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_pitchrates.cfm

The Wyeast Activator (125 ml) smack-pack is designed to directly inoculate 5 gallons of standard ale wort (O.G. < 1.060, 65-72°F). When brewing high gravity beer (O.G. >1.060) or cold fermented lagers or ales (<65 °F)) additional yeast will be required. An Activator contains approximately 100 billion cells which will deliver slightly less than 6 million cells per milliliter to a 5 gallon batch of beer.

Pitch rates make a dramatic difference in the final flavor and aroma profile of any beer. Ester production is directly related to yeast growth as are most other flavor and aroma compounds.
A low pitch rate can lead to:

Excess levels of diacetyl
Increase in higher/fusel alcohol formation
Increase in ester formation
Increase in volatile sulfur compounds
High terminal gravities
Stuck fermentations
Increased risk of infection

___________________________________________________
Not my words- these are direct from Wyeast. I do happen to ferment many (most) of my ales <65 degrees.

 

[MrSpiffy]

That's excellent info, Yooper. Thanks!

 

[Yooper]

I bolded a couple of things in the previous post, because it's important to note that Wyeast is telling you, in optimum storage conditions, that the pitching rate at best will be "slightly less than 6 million cells per milliliter to a 5 gallon batch of beer" and that it is inadequate for fermentations <65 degrees, or for OGs of 1.060 or greater.

Now, according to mrmalty.com (Jamil Zainasheff) and many other brewers: The general consensus on pitching rates is that you want to pitch around 1 million cells of viable yeast, for every milliliter of wort, for every degree plato. A little less for an ale, a little more for a lager. George Fix states about 1.5 million for a lager and 0.75 million for an ale in his book, An Analysis of Brewing Techniques. Other literature cites a slightly higher amount. I'm going with Fix's numbers and that is what the pitching calculator uses.

So, the pitching calculator uses George Fix's numbers.

Later on that same page (http://www.mrmalty.com/pitching.php) Jamil states: You would need 2 of the large packs if you were pitching directly into 5.5 gallons of 1.048 wort to get the proper cell counts.

 

[MrSpiffy]

Thanks again, Yooper! I actually just stumbled onto Mr. Malty when looking for more info on this issue, and there's some really great info on their pitching rate page. Funny how the LHBS didn't mention anything about pitch rates... you'd think they might, just to sell another smack pack to a n00b like me. Nor did they mention making a starter for liquid yeast. (Yep, they knew it was my very first batch, too... I bought my brewing kit at the same time as the ingredient kit.) Now I know, and I'll pay a lot more attention to this issue next time I brew.

Do you usually decant the starter wort before pitching? Or just toss it right in, like Mr. Malty recommends?

 

[Yooper]

Do you usually decant the starter wort before pitching? Or just toss it right in, like Mr. Malty recommends?

It depends. If it's a relatively small starter in a 5 gallon batch, I just toss it all in. But for a large starter (like for lagers), I chill the starter and then decant the spent wort before pouring into my wort. A small starter won't really matter in 5 gallons of wort. But if it's a 4 liter starter, I don't want oxidized hopless beer added to my wort, so I decant it.

 

[cm02WS6]

How many smack packs do you think they would sell if they told you that you had to buy a 2L flask and a stir plate and had to find time to make a starter a couple days in advance to get the same pitch rate as a single pack of dry yeast? Marketing must know what they are doing

 

[MrSpiffy]

It depends. If it's a relatively small starter in a 5 gallon batch, I just toss it all in. But for a large starter (like for lagers), I chill the starter and then decant the spent wort before pouring into my wort. A small starter won't really matter in 5 gallons of wort. But if it's a 4 liter starter, I don't want oxidized hopless beer added to my wort, so I decant it.

Sounds easy enough! Thanks again!

How many smack packs do you think they would sell if they told you that you had to buy a 2L flask and a stir plate and had to find time to make a starter a couple days in advance to get the same pitch rate as a single pack of dry yeast? Marketing must know what they are doing

I dunno. I'd still use liquid yeast. In fact, I'll still get a flask. You don't NEED a stir plate, but you'll need less starter to get the same amount of yeast if you do use one. (At least, according to Mr. Malty.) You could even just shake it up every so often.

 

[By-Tor]

I personally like liquid yeasts for the variety and the feeling that I'm brewing "the right way". That's just how I feel

What is brewing the right way? There are poeople in South America who start fermenting by stiring with a stick they have had for many years. Held within the crevices of this stick is there path to full fermentaton, every time.

 

[Darwin18]

I personally like liquid yeasts for the variety and the feeling that I'm brewing "the right way". That's just how I feel

What is brewing the right way? There are poeople in South America who start fermenting by stiring with a stick they have had for many years. Held within the crevices of this stick is there path to full fermentaton, every time.

Let me help you with that, since you obviously didn't read the rest of my quote.

I personally like liquid yeasts for the variety and the feeling that I'm brewing "the right way". That's just how I feel - nothing like progating liquid yeast, making a great starter, and seeing it take off a couple hours after pitching. I never got that feeling sprinkling packets of dry yeast into the wort. There is nothing wrong with dry yeast and it makes excellent beer, just how I feel. Your opinions will vary.

 

[By-Tor]

"The right way" is what works i suppose. Or what you like best.

 

[jbsg02]

From listening to the brewing network, liquid yeasts are able to use some of their "reserves" to keep themselves healthy, which is one of the reasons they need a starter with lots of oxygen to replenish it. Dry yeasts can't keep themselves healthy after they are dried and yeast health could be a bigger concern.

 

[Denny]

Look, you don't have to believe mrmalty, Wyeast, or anybody but yourself. Make a batch direct pitching a smack pack. Then brew exactly the same recipe again and use a correctly sized starter. Do a blind triangle tasting and decide which one you prefer. That's what I did to reach my conclusion. I've made starters for every batch since.

 

[MrSpiffy]

Denny, that's a great thing to try. It's better than just believing what other people say. Making two batches (or splitting a batch in half) and pitching separately like you did is a perfect test to really see if it makes a difference.

After reading Mr. Malty, it makes a lot of sense that pitch rates matter. Tired yeast can't work as well. The starter helps the yeast perform at an optimum level during fermentation. If only I had known this before I made my first batches, I would have definitely made a starter for each.

 

[Heavyfoot]

What I'd like to know is why wyeast wouldn't just make smack packs with the right number of cells to make a starter totally unnecessary for normal gravity beers. Can't see it costing that much more per pack to produce. I'd pay a buck or two more to not have to make a starter.

 

[TimTrone]

What I'd like to know is why wyeast wouldn't just make smack packs with the right number of cells to make a starter totally unnecessary for normal gravity beers. Can't see it costing that much more per pack to produce. I'd pay a buck or two more to not have to make a starter.

The moment the packs are made I'd bet that there's a sufficient amount of cells for average brews. However, even in the best case it still takes about a month or two for it to reach the consumer. In that time some of the viability goes down.

Making a starter only takes 15-20 minutes, but I understand people don't always have free time. I use dry yeast anytime I would be using 1056(05) or 002(04).

 

[Special Hops]

Only advantage to liquid yeast IMO is that it has lots more variety you can't get with dry.

Dry is cheaper & easier.

I use dry for 80% of my beers. Only liquid when I am making something using a strain not available in dry form.

 

[jsmcclure007]

The variety of yeast strains is amazing. The immediate feedback verifying viability is very. Reassuring Dry yeast is probably just great for most stuff. I like to "feel" a puffy yeast bag prio4 to pitching. If I was a starving student it might not be worth it but, for the time being, it's worth it. It's all good

 

[tom_gamer]

This could totally be in my head but all beers/meads that I have made with liquid have turned out much better than with dry. Again this could be an accident.

 

[Denny]

What I'd like to know is why wyeast wouldn't just make smack packs with the right number of cells to make a starter totally unnecessary for normal gravity beers. Can't see it costing that much more per pack to produce. I'd pay a buck or two more to not have to make a starter.

According to what Wyeast has said, it would cost enough more to make an impact.

 

[Denny]

However, even in the best case it still takes about a month or two for it to reach the consumer. In that time some of the viability goes down.

That depends on where you live. I've gotten smack packs with dates only a day or 2 before I receive them.

 

[Wobbegong]

That depends on where you live. I've gotten smack packs with dates only a day or 2 before I receive them.

Agreed. I regularly see smack packs just a few days old at my LHBS.

 

[TimTrone]

You guys are lucky. My LHBS doesn't sell any out of date yeasts, but they're all at least a month old. I've gotten a few packs online that we're about a week old, but that was rare.

 

[william_shakes_beer]

How many smack packs do you think they would sell if they told you that you had to buy a 2L flask and a stir plate and had to find time to make a starter a couple days in advance to get the same pitch rate as a single pack of dry yeast? Marketing must know what they are doing

... And, once you have all that equipment you might as well pick up some mason jars and start ranching... Another yeast customer bites the dust!!!

 

[johnp]

You can harvest and wash liquid yeast and get a few batches out of 1
smackpack or vial for about 7 bucks.That`s the advantage if there is any
plus diversity.But US-05 is the cheapest most reliable yeast I have ever used
at about 3 bucks a pack,also fits many styles.

You can't wash and reuse dry yeast?

 

[stratslinger]

You can't wash and reuse dry yeast?

Sure you can... It's just that dry yeast tends to be so inexpensive that most folks don't bother.