Belgian Dark Strong Ale Westvleteren 12 Clone - Multiple Award Winner

[jtp137]

I brewed the AG version of this ~10 days ago. My primary is now sitting at 80F and I am trying to figure out the next step (assuming my gravity tonight is on-point). I see I should lower the temp to 73-75 for a few days for a diactyl rast, but then what?

CSI recommends a secondary at 50F for 40 days, but says it's mostly just based off tradition. I have never racked to a secondary for my brews and the thought of potential infection when doing so has me cringing. Can I do a week or two in the primary at 50F and then bottle from the primary? Has anyone tried this?

What is the gravity

 

[orangehero]

There's no diacetyl rest in the profile and you wouldn't lower temperature to do one anyway as the higher the temperature the faster the clean-up of diacetyl.

As CSI explains in detail directly above your post, the purpose of the transfer to secondary is to get the beer off the yeast to prevent overattenuation. As long as your sanitation regimen is solid there is little risk of infection for a fully fermented beer, especially one at over 10% alcohol.

A secondary at 50°F is not just for tradition, not sure where that was mentioned, but it will speed up the maturation of the beer. Think of it as lagering except at ale yeast temperatures.

Just follow the instructions from the CSI website:

"Ramp primary to 77F for 6-7 days. At 1.013 rack off yeast to secondary
and crash to 55-60F. Hold for 3-4 days until FG is reached. Dump yeast again and lower to 45F and hold for 8 weeks."

 

[HausBrauerei_Harvey]

There's no diacetyl rest in the profile and you wouldn't lower temperature to do one anyway as the higher the temperature the faster the clean-up of diacetyl.

As CSI notes above, the purpose of the transfer to secondary is to get the beer off the yeast to prevent overattenuation.

A secondary at 50°F is not just for tradition, not sure where that was mentioned, but it will speed up the maturation of the beer.

Just follow the instructions from the CSI website:

"Ramp primary to 77F for 6-7 days. At 1.013 rack off yeast to secondary
and crash to 55-60F. Hold for 3-4 days until FG is reached. Dump yeast again and lower to 45F and hold for 8 weeks."

I didn't take the reading yet, but assuming its at 1.013 my question is then, can I cold crash to 55-60 in the primary (instead of racking to secondary) and then bottle once FG is reached? Is the reason for racking primarily to get rid of all but the yeast still in suspension?

Do I need to do the 45F/8week step was my main question.

 

[orangehero]

Yes you can do as you propose. The cold maturation is not necessary, but it will improve the flavor. Also don't assume 1.013 is your terminal gravity as we don't know anything else about your ingredients and process. If it doesn't change three days in a row go ahead with bottling. Don't be afraid of secondaries, though.

 

[Kee]

I brewed the AG version of this ~10 days ago. My primary is now sitting at 80F and I am trying to figure out the next step (assuming my gravity tonight is on-point). I see I should lower the temp to 73-75 for a few days for a diactyl rast, but then what?

CSI recommends a secondary at 50F for 40 days, but says it's mostly just based off tradition. I have never racked to a secondary for my brews and the thought of potential infection when doing so has me cringing. Can I do a week or two in the primary at 50F and then bottle from the primary? Has anyone tried this?

Yes, I have bottled from primary after just a couple of weeks with excellent results. I would never claim that to be equal to the recommended schedule, but it works. The beer ages well in bottles (although I have trouble keeping any past a few months).

As with any beer look for a stable FG and clarity. And give it a few extra days if there is any doubt.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

I brewed the AG version of this ~10 days ago. My primary is now sitting at 80F and I am trying to figure out the next step (assuming my gravity tonight is on-point). I see I should lower the temp to 73-75 for a few days for a diactyl rast, but then what?

CSI recommends a secondary at 50F for 40 days, but says it's mostly just based off tradition. I have never racked to a secondary for my brews and the thought of potential infection when doing so has me cringing. Can I do a week or two in the primary at 50F and then bottle from the primary? Has anyone tried this?

You can perform primary and secondary in a single vessel, however, your would want to use a temp controlled conical with a 2" dump valve to make it more straightforward. This also has the advantage of oxygen shielding the ale throughout under its own CO2.

If manually moving from one vessel to another, I would thoroughly clean then over-soak vessels and equipment in star-san for longer than required. Drip dry and slowly decant onto the star-san foam using a siphon. Pouring may create oxidation and this ale will usually show it.

You're absolutely correct about the 40 days in secondary. Even the brewing accounts at the monastery indicate the long secondary is a rule of thumb only. They've combined secondary & tertiary, (brightening) since clarity isn't that important for a dark belgian strong. Theoretically it could be done in much less time.

 

[av8bdriver]

Ok, primary seems to be stuck at 1.020. I pitched 2 viles of WLP530, then added a 3rd vial several days after initial pitch. I posted earlier that the temp got pretty high.. 87ish.. and I cooled it down in a cold bath overnight. That brought it down a little too much to 73ish. Put it on a heating pad and wrapped it up. got the temp up to 78-79 for about a week. let the temp come down to 73-74 (where it is at now). Worried that it wont come down to the 1.012. Brewed this on Dec 16th. Any advice? Thanks!

 

[jtp137]

Ok, primary seems to be stuck at 1.020. I pitched 2 viles of WLP530, then added a 3rd vial several days after initial pitch. I posted earlier that the temp got pretty high.. 87ish.. and I cooled it down in a cold bath overnight. That brought it down a little too much to 73ish. Put it on a heating pad and wrapped it up. got the temp up to 78-79 for about a week. let the temp come down to 73-74 (where it is at now). Worried that it wont come down to the 1.012. Brewed this on Dec 16th. Any advice? Thanks!

Try this. I have had problems with this yeast as well. I stick to wlp500. I think it crashes when it gets too high



Stuck fermentation



Create a new WLP530 stir-plate 3000ml starter. The large starter has be able to quickly ferment under adverse conditions so it has to be large. Oxygenate the starter before seeding with 1 vial WLP530, oxygenate it again at 8 hrs, and after high krausen has subsided oxygenate it a third time. Crash the starter to flocc. Take out of chill and pour off almost all of the starter beer and let the temp normalize to your primary temp. Pitch and stir in *very* gently. In 1-2 days a slow fermentation will resume. Monitor until you reach FG 1.012. Probably another week to 10 days. It worked

 

[av8bdriver]

Is there something about getting this yeast to the 65 deg range that helps it attenuate further?

 

[Kee]

Is there something about getting this yeast to the 65 deg range that helps it attenuate further?

No. Starting fermentation around that temperature is to get the desired esters and phenols, not to help attenuation. Letting the wort temp get up to 78 or slightly above (83 max) will give you the best chance to reach the desired FG.

 

[av8bdriver]

I meant on the backside, after 80% attenuation.

 

[Kee]

I meant on the backside, after 80% attenuation.

I misunderstood. But the principle is the same. At 65 the yeast will still be active but that is not the desired temp for maximum attenuation.

 

[av8bdriver]

Try this. I have had problems with this yeast as well. I stick to wlp500. I think it crashes when it gets too high



Stuck fermentation



Create a new WLP530 stir-plate 3000ml starter. The large starter has be able to quickly ferment under adverse conditions so it has to be large. Oxygenate the starter before seeding with 1 vial WLP530, oxygenate it again at 8 hrs, and after high krausen has subsided oxygenate it a third time. Crash the starter to flocc. Take out of chill and pour off almost all of the starter beer and let the temp normalize to your primary temp. Pitch and stir in *very* gently. In 1-2 days a slow fermentation will resume. Monitor until you reach FG 1.012. Probably another week to 10 days. It worked

What if I wash the yeast cake and make a starter from that? Dont have any more vials of WLP530.... would have to order more and that takes more time and money... which i am willing, but just curious about the yeast cake.

 

[orangehero]

Generally speaking yeast is yeast, but I wouldn't pull the whole yeast cake. If you can harvest a fraction and make the starter from that it would be best. Optimally you should also pitch the starter at high krausen.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

What if I wash the yeast cake and make a starter from that? Dont have any more vials of WLP530.... would have to order more and that takes more time and money... which i am willing, but just curious about the yeast cake.

For the Westy 12 clone to reach FG there are yeast quality issues that can not be substituted:

1) Create a minimum stir-plate starter of 3000ml that is initially charged with O2. Keep in mind that the monastery uses fresh Westmalle krausen only, (we also use fresh harvested krausen only). See pic below.

2) Avoid using trub or an old yeast cake assuming more is better or that yeast quality can be substituted for quantity. For this clone, yeast quality is the primary key to ale quality.

 

[ruger988]

On that note, would you care to give a quick write up of your harvesting process? Or point me in the right direction if you've already done so elsewhere?

Thanks!

 

[av8bdriver]

For the Westy 12 clone to reach FG there are yeast quality issues that can not be substituted:

1) Create a minimum stir-plate starter of 3000ml that is initially charged with O2. Keep in mind that the monastery uses fresh Westmalle krausen only, (we also use fresh harvested krausen only). See pic below.

2) Avoid using trub or an old yeast cake assuming more is better or that yeast quality can be substituted for quantity. For this clone, yeast quality is the primary key to ale quality.

Thanks, CSI. So are you saying to only pour the top portion of your picture.. the foaming part? That's what I think krausen is.

 

[ruger988]

Thanks, CSI. So are you saying to only pour the top portion of your picture.. the foaming part? That's what I think krausen is.

No, he would pitch his entire starter. The yeast used to make the starter is harvested from the high krausen of another full brew that he has going.

 

[gotbags-10]

Is it crucial to use a yeast starter made from high krausen on another batch?

 

[ruger988]

Is it crucial to use a yeast starter made from high krausen on another batch?

If you can make a starter from a fresh vial thats fine. Not really adviseable to use yeast slurry from a previous batch though.

 

[orangehero]

Not really adviseable to use yeast slurry from a previous batch though.

You mean using a starter made from slurry, correct? Why exactly is that not advisable?

Although Westmalle has the capability to top crop, many, if not most, breweries (and homebrewers) repitch the yeast harvested from the bottom of the fermentation vessel. There is a rationale for harvesting the "middle" yeast from the bottom in that you preserve the flocculation properties across many generations. If the beer was made a week ago I would think the cake is still viable and healthy, although perhaps the stalled fermentation is an indicator of poor yeast health. Some have even discovered that the commonly used yeast slurry viability calculators grossly overestimate the rate at which yeast loses viability. Furthermore, according to the Yeast book yeast don't begin performing optimally in a particular brewery until they've been repitched several times.

Also to clarify, "krausen" is the foamy yeast on top, but "high krausen" describes a phase in the fermentation.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

On that note, would you care to give a quick write up of your harvesting process? Or point me in the right direction if you've already done so elsewhere?

Thanks!

Yes, the krausen harvest process I've been meaning to post. On next harvest I'll get pics and process posted.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

Thanks, CSI. So are you saying to only pour the top portion of your picture.. the foaming part? That's what I think krausen is.

What you're seeing in the pic is an all krausen harvest that has been flocced, (about 1 trillion cells). The top portion is only the yeast that would not flocc due to suspended air/O2. We flocc it to get a measurement on count. For packed, clean Westmalle it's 4.0 billion cells per ml.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

No, he would pitch his entire starter. The yeast used to make the starter is harvested from the high krausen of another full brew that he has going.

Yes, that's correct. This flask is a flocced capture. You can make some explosively active yeast starters from krausen capture. However, we pitch the krausen yeast directly.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

If you can make a starter from a fresh vial thats fine. Not really adviseable to use yeast slurry from a previous batch though.

Concur.

 

[av8bdriver]

For the Westy 12 clone to reach FG there are yeast quality issues that can not be substituted:

1) Create a minimum stir-plate starter of 3000ml that is initially charged with O2. Keep in mind that the monastery uses fresh Westmalle krausen only, (we also use fresh harvested krausen only). See pic below.

2) Avoid using trub or an old yeast cake assuming more is better or that yeast quality can be substituted for quantity. For this clone, yeast quality is the primary key to ale quality.

OK... washed the yeast cake. Got a total of about 1/2 cup from the yeast cake. I notice that yall say to use a 3000ml starter. My flask is only 2000ml. I boiled 1.5 quarts of water and added 3oz (85 grams) of light dme for the starter base.
Cooled the wort and pitched the harvested yeast... for a total of about 1200ml right now. Sitting on stir plate now.
Do I need to make more wort and add to the solution? Thanks for all of the help...

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

OK... washed the yeast cake. Got a total of about 1/2 cup from the yeast cake. I notice that yall say to use a 3000ml starter. My flask is only 2000ml. I boiled 1.5 quarts of water and added 3oz (85 grams) of light dme for the starter base.
Cooled the wort and pitched the harvested yeast... for a total of about 1200ml right now. Sitting on stir plate now.
Do I need to make more wort and add to the solution? Thanks for all of the help...

When using slurry or yeast cake you may or may not have the ability to calc your count outcome. We're after a proximity to the Fix rate:

Count = (0.75 million) X (milliliters of wort) X (degrees Plato)

Also, even washed slurry will have a percentage of dead cells and non-viable cells no matter how well it is washed so quality and quantity may still be questionable. Stalled ale problems usually trace back to yeast quantity & quality.

Lyces and histamines from decomposing yeast carcasses will emit byproducts that are not desirable. If you want to use yeast cake out of frugal use, you could consider creating a fermentation explosion and 'distill', (capture), the top-crop and get a yeast viable enough for a quad fermentation. Even doing this though, you will still not have a premium yeast. The cake should then be thrown away.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

OK... washed the yeast cake. Got a total of about 1/2 cup from the yeast cake. I notice that yall say to use a 3000ml starter. My flask is only 2000ml. I boiled 1.5 quarts of water and added 3oz (85 grams) of light dme for the starter base.
Cooled the wort and pitched the harvested yeast... for a total of about 1200ml right now. Sitting on stir plate now.
Do I need to make more wort and add to the solution? Thanks for all of the help...

For a 10P starter wort I generally adopt the Jamil approach, (1g/10ml). You would need 120g of DME per 1200ml total volume. Feed the bugs

 

[av8bdriver]

Ok... just wanted to update everyone. Finally got the 2 step starter pitched this morning. When I got home from work this evening, looked like fermentation has started nicely.... airlock was bubbling about 12-15 times/minute. Also put a heating pad on low underneath it. Fingers crossed! Thanks again everyone for all of the great advice.

 

[The_Glue]

I have to brew something belgian in the 1.070-1.090 range for a competition in mid march, do you think i can get away with less aging if i brew a weaker/diluted version of this, like 1.070 OG?