Well Water, Water Report and Consistency Questions

[Ylbc]

Hey everyone,

So my wife and I bought a new house that we are moving into in a couple of months. Of course one of the things I'm really excited about is the space I'll have for brewing beer. I currently do all grain BIAB, and to date have been using RO/Distilled water and building up my profile. At the new house, it has well water. So my question is if I get the profile down from a report, how consistent can I expect that water profile to be time after time? Is well water generally consistent or does it swing like municipal water can?

Then the second question is as part of inspection I received a report about the water (attached). Is there a way to build a water report from this? It doesnt seem to use the same minerals that I have seen people reference before?

Any help would be appreciated! Stay safe everyone!

 

[Sammy86]

In my experience my well water has been pretty consistent. My well guy suggested getting tested every year so thats what I do.

He did tell me that water profile will change with the seasons...and the best time to test is late spring, early summer.

My well water here in CT is HARD! So we have a water softener and RO system put in this past fall...like night and day! I would get it tested and see what you're working with before making any big water adjustment equipment.

 

[mabrungard]

Unless your groundwater is under the influence of a nearby stream or river, you can probably expect that the well water quality will be consistent.

No, that water report is insufficient to determine the content of some ions. I recommend you send a 4 oz sample to Ward Labs for testing. The Stock Water analysis is what you want and it's less expensive than the Brewer's test.

 

[okiedog]

Your well water properties and consistency depends on your location, source, and rock strata. I can tell you from experience that most well water is more consistent than municipal water supplies that rely on surface water sources. First of all, you will need more information than is shown in your attached water report. I do not see calcium or magnesium listed, Also, the report lists .everything in mg/L, which is typical. You will need to convert to ppm. Here is an online converter: mg/L to PPM Converter | Milligrams Per Liter to Parts Per Million Calculator (easycalculation.com) . If you ask, you may be able to obtain a report that lists everything you need to know for brewing water. I am no expert on water reports, but hopefully someone who is more knowledgeable will weigh in on this.

 

[Ylbc]

Thanks @mabrungard I dont think there is a nearby stream or river, so that would make life a lot easier than having to get a ton of RO water everytime I have to brew. @Sammy86 I am in CT as well! And there is a water softener system in the house. I'll get the water tested and see what it comes back with!

 

[Sammy86]

Thanks @mabrungard I dont think there is a nearby stream or river, so that would make life a lot easier than having to get a ton of RO water everytime I have to brew. @Sammy86 I am in CT as well! And there is a water softener system in the house. I'll get the water tested and see what it comes back with!

Awesome to have another CT Brewer! Where about are you? I’m in Newtown. Moved here a year and half ago from Danbury.

 

[Ylbc]

Awesome to have another CT Brewer! Where about are you? I’m in Newtown. Moved here a year and half ago from Danbury.

New Canaan. Moving from NJ! Finally making the move to the suburbs.

 

[VikeMan]

Also, the report lists .everything in mg/L, which is typical. You will need to convert to ppm. Here is an online converter: mg/L to PPM Converter | Milligrams Per Liter to Parts Per Million Calculator (easycalculation.com) .

Hats off to you if you find that converting mg/L to PPM makes a difference in your brewing decisions. Personally, I can't taste the difference between 200 PPM and 200.2 PPM of Sulfates, for example. At naturally occurring concentrations, PPM and mg/L are the same when rounded to a whole number.

 

[Ylbc]

Unless your groundwater is under the influence of a nearby stream or river, you can probably expect that the well water quality will be consistent.

No, that water report is insufficient to determine the content of some ions. I recommend you send a 4 oz sample to Ward Labs for testing. The Stock Water analysis is what you want and it's less expensive than the Brewer's test.

Martin which of these is the standard test? The W-1?

 

[okiedog]

Hats off to you if you find that converting mg/L to PPM makes a difference in your brewing decisions. Personally, I can't taste the difference between 200 PPM and 200.2 PPM of Sulfates, for example. At naturally occurring concentrations, PPM and mg/L are the same when rounded to a whole number.

Okay, if you say so. As I said, I'm no expert. I am familiar with with ppm, so that's what I use. Thanks for the tip.

 

[Sammy86]

New Canaan. Moving from NJ! Finally making the move to the suburbs.

Ahh, the nice part of town...I'm a varsity baseball coach....NCHS is in our conference. Good luck with the move!

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

Any help would be appreciated! Stay safe everyone!

You have a touch of iron and manganese, and your water is fairly hard. Your water softener will help with all three issues in terms of protecting your plumbing fixtures. Let us know if you need a manual for your softener or some input on use/maintenance.

Its likely your softener will add about 54 mg/L or ppm of sodium to your water. That would give you a total of about 82 mg/L (ppm) in your brewing water.

Russ

 

[VikeMan]

Its likely your softener will add about 54 mg/L or ppm to your water. That would give you a total of about 82 mg/L (ppm) in your brewing water.

@Ylbc, @Buckeye_Hydro is referring to sodium here.

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

Oops! I updated my post. Thanks Vike.

 

[Dland]

I'd second the opinion to get a second opinion from Ward labs or other reputable lab. I just got test results for my new well and they had the pH at exactly 7 also. The well driller says he has never seen pH that high around here and suggested I get a re test at another lab.

 

[Karn]

Hey everyone,

So my wife and I bought a new house that we are moving into in a couple of months. Of course one of the things I'm really excited about is the space I'll have for brewing beer. I currently do all grain BIAB, and to date have been using RO/Distilled water and building up my profile. At the new house, it has well water. So my question is if I get the profile down from a report, how consistent can I expect that water profile to be time after time? Is well water generally consistent or does it swing like municipal water can?

Then the second question is as part of inspection I received a report about the water (attached). Is there a way to build a water report from this? It doesnt seem to use the same minerals that I have seen people reference before?

Any help would be appreciated! Stay safe everyone!

We've been in the northern woods of MI for more than 10 years. Our well water tastes great. Our report kind of resembles yours, not too hard, not too much sulphur. I've been told by locals that the water table 'turns over' in the spring after the winter thaw, but have not observed any obvious effects from this. I've been making wine for several years and am thankful for well water without the chlorine. I would say, go for it, without adding anything to your water.

 

[cire]

Hey everyone,

Then the second question is as part of inspection I received a report about the water (attached). Is there a way to build a water report from this? It doesnt seem to use the same minerals that I have seen people reference before?

Any help would be appreciated! Stay safe everyone!

While your report doesn't give individual values for calcium, magnesium and alkalinity, it does give values for the other major ions and hardness. As hardness is a measurement of the combined influence of calcium and magnesium, we could suppose values for calcium of 45 ppm and magnesium of 3 ppm, which provide that level of hardness. To produce a balanced water with those measurements, alkalinity at 20 ppm as CaCO3 would complete the profile, which is a rather good starting point for brewing.

 

[Ylbc]

You have a touch of iron and manganese, and your water is fairly hard. Your water softener will help with all three issues in terms of protecting your plumbing fixtures. Let us know if you need a manual for your softener or some input on use/maintenance.

Its likely your softener will add about 54 mg/L or ppm of sodium to your water. That would give you a total of about 82 mg/L (ppm) in your brewing water.

Russ

I would love that as this is my first time not on city water!

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I'm going to guess at your missing brewing water relevant analyticals as follows:

Ca++ ~=34.5 mg/L
Mg++ ~= 9 mg/L
Alkalinity (as CaCO3) ~= 22.5 mg/L
HCO3- (Bicarbonate ion) ~= 27.4 mg/L

 

[mabrungard]

Martin which of these is the standard test? The W-1?

View attachment 717510

Oops. Got the name wrong. The W-4 Livestock Suitability test has all the parameters we brewers need.

 

[Ylbc]

I'm going to guess at your missing brewing water relevant analyticals as follows:

Ca++ ~=34.5 mg/L
Mg++ ~= 9 mg/L
Alkalinity (as CaCO3) ~= 22.5 mg/L
HCO3- (Bicarbonate ion) ~= 27.4 mg/L

Mind if I ask how do got to this?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Hardness = 123 mg/L
But also: Hardness = 2.4973(Ca++) + 4.11796(Mg++)
For nominally average fresh water, ~70% of hardness is from calcium, and 30% of hardness is from magnesium
123 x 0.70 = 86.1
123 x 0.30 = 36.9
Therefore:
Ca = 86.1/2.4973 = 34.48 mg/L
Mg = 36.9/4.11796 = 8.96 mg/L
Next I guessed at K (Potassium) = 1 mg/L
And we know that Na (Sodium) = 27.8 mg/L
Then we know that waters Cations mEq/L must equal waters Anions mEq/L for water to be charge neutral
Ca, Mg,Na,and K are the waters Cations
We know the Anion mg/L values for Cl and SO4
We must solve for Anions Bicarb and Alkalinity
Based on MW's and EqW's (Equivalent Weights), and the use of my below linked spreadsheet which assists, I solved for Alkalinity
And lastly, when pH is 7.0, such as yours is, Bicarbonate = 61.01684/50.04345 x Alkalinity

Assisting spreadsheet link:
Download the spreadsheet at the Google Drive link seen below (by pressing the "down arrow" seen next to the printer icon in the upper right hand corner) and then launch and run in Excel or LibreOffice Calc.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-jGTe8zEj9_X8SUuumGgblx7O-6eLGVO/view?usp=sharing
Enter all known Anions and Cations, and then play with various Alkalinity values until Anions mEq/L = Cations mEq/L. That gives you Alkalinity.

 

[cire]

The report includes a value for nitrate of 3 mg/L as nitrogen, making the anion nitrate to be 13 mg/L. Bringing this to account would reduce alkalinity as CaCO3 by ~ 12 mg/L

 

[Brooothru]

Two factors that can also determine the consistency of your well water are the depth of your well and the overlying land use. It stands to reason that the more "filtration" you have, the more consistent the composition of the water. Agricultural overlay (and whether it is crop or livestock) verses residential (and whether paved verses 'green') will affect the run-off seasonally.

We have a 480' deep well fed from a forested watershed, surrounded by former farmland settled in the 1700s by German farmers. It's mixed usage zoned Agricultural/Residential, 1-3 acre lots with dairy farms and planted crops. Water is virtually unchanged in the 35 years we've lived here, and likely never will as long as the nearby towns draw their water from our common watershed.

Brooo Brother

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

The report includes a value for nitrate of 3 mg/L as nitrogen, making the anion nitrate to be 13 mg/L. Bringing this to account would reduce alkalinity as CaCO3 by ~ 12 mg/L

The addition of this Anion changes Alkalinity to ~12-13 mg/L (vs. 22.5). That's a lot of nitrate. More typically it is reported as <1 mg/L. Good catch.

As to mash pH, the difference between 22.5 mg/L and 12.5 mg/L of Alkalinity will likely only move a mash by about 0.05 pH points, so it is not highly significant from that perspective.

 

[okiedog]

Hats off to you if you find that converting mg/L to PPM makes a difference in your brewing decisions. Personally, I can't taste the difference between 200 PPM and 200.2 PPM of Sulfates, for example. At naturally occurring concentrations, PPM and mg/L are the same when rounded to a whole number.

Vikeman, I do sincerely want to thank you for calling my attention to the fact that the difference in mg/L and ppm is basically negligible. I can't believe that for so long I had not compared the two.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Vikeman, I do sincerely want to thank you for calling my attention to the fact that the difference in mg/L and ppm is basically negligible. I can't believe that for so long I had not compared the two.

If calcium is 50 mg/L in a Wort of density 1.060 g/CC, then the very same calcium is only 47.17 ppm in the same Wort. The error between mg/L and ppm for that case is at a scale of 5.7% to 6%. Depending upon how critically you want to look at it, that can be either significant or negligible.

And the error grows to twice that for a Wort with a density of 1.120 g/CC.

 

[okiedog]

Good point, but with most brews, I am usually more concerned with the sulfate/chloride ratio than a few more ppm. Now, thanks to you, I will not be avoiding measurements in mg/L.

 

[mabrungard]

Good point, but with most brews, I am usually more concerned with the sulfate/chloride ratio than a few more ppm. Now, thanks to you, I will not be avoiding measurements in mg/L.

The ratio is useless. Don’t use it as a guide for sulfate or chloride additions.

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

@Sammy86 if I understand correctly, you are basing water quality on late spring/early summer. If this is correct, this means any brewing water additions in Fall, Winter, early Spring and late Summer are wrong.

 

[Sammy86]

@Sammy86 if I understand correctly, you are basing water quality on late spring/early summer. If this is correct, this means any brewing water additions in Fall, Winter, early Spring and late Summer are wrong.

Not necessarily true...my first water test in the summer (July, 2019) was almost identical to the one I got in March (2020)...only difference was hardness and it was down 25 ppm. so I don't know the science behind it or if its even true just relaying a message from a well guys who has been in the business for 30+ years.

Also of note, i now have an RO system so I don't necessarily worry about it for brewing but I will be getting it tested again this summer for my annual test.

 

[okiedog]

The ratio is useless. Don’t use it as a guide for sulfate or chloride additions.

Thanks Martin. I know that I have a lot to learn when it comes to water chemistry. I have used your spreadsheet in the past with some success, but now I'll have to give it another try. Would you please elaborate on why I should not rely on sulfate/chloride ratio?

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

My point is the report is a moving target. You brew in August/September. What is the hardness? Whom knows.

I have the same problem here.

 

[mabrungard]

Thanks Martin. I know that I have a lot to learn when it comes to water chemistry. I have used your spreadsheet in the past with some success, but now I'll have to give it another try. Would you please elaborate on why I should not rely on sulfate/chloride ratio?

Because you can keep the ratio unchanged while drastically changing the impact due to the magnitude of the concentrations. 10 ppm sulfate with 20 ppm chloride will have a significant difference in effect from 100 ppm sulfate with 200 ppm chloride. The ratios are the same, but the effect will be different in the beer.

 

[okiedog]

Okay, now I understand. Of course, I do pay attention to more than just the sulfate to chloride ratio. MB, when it comes to brewing water, you keep me thinking, and I am happy to be enlightened.