coonmanx
Well-Known Member
Very little actually.
Well damn...what did I do wrong?
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Very little actually.
coonmanx
Well-Known Member
And yet he waited two weeks to rack to secondary and I usually do that in three days or so. And crap. I failed to notice that this was also one of your posts. Now it's my mistake. LOL.
The reason for doing it after primary has crashed is that the secondary is a perfect place for settling and clearing and without all of that yeast cake it does it a whole lot better. And if CO2 is still coming off then it will purge any oxygen out of the headspace in secondary. But I already said that. Wish I could have just deleted the post....
I will advise NOT doing a secondary. I have only done 3 in my 9 years of brewing, twice were to make additions. I get very little sediment and get the same comments about selling my beers.
For me it is a step I don't need to do. I feel that the risks of oxidation and infection far outweigh the very minor amount of clearing you will get. Though with proper sanitation and doing closed transfers that should not be an issue. If you do a secondary I also suggest that you do not just siphon to a smaller carboy. Invest in co2 and a closed transfer system. I am also not worried if my beers aren't crystal clear, though most are. Just give the beer enough time. For me that is usually at 2 weeks, though most of the time it gets a little longer.
Of course if things work, just continue. In brewing there are so many ways to accomplish creating a great beer.
For me it is a step I don't need to do. I feel that the risks of oxidation and infection far outweigh the very minor amount of clearing you will get. Though with proper sanitation and doing closed transfers that should not be an issue. If you do a secondary I also suggest that you do not just siphon to a smaller carboy. Invest in co2 and a closed transfer system. I am also not worried if my beers aren't crystal clear, though most are. Just give the beer enough time. For me that is usually at 2 weeks, though most of the time it gets a little longer.
Of course if things work, just continue. In brewing there are so many ways to accomplish creating a great beer.
Thats why I remarked about it haha. I'd only ever seen or watched firsthand brewers rack to secondary long after that time has already passed.
coonmanx
Well-Known Member
So shouldn't we really ask just how big that risk actually is if it never happens. Seems to me that it is then just a risk running around in someone's head and is no different than the risk of getting hit by a car just because you went outside. To me, it is an almost non-existent risk if you use proper sanitation and do things the correct way. Just like the risk of being hit by a car is pretty much zero if you look twice before crossing the street. So why even worrry about something that most likely will never ever happen?
I have never seen the need for closed transfer at all. When I am racking there is still gas coming off of the beer so any oxygen in the headspace should be depleted quickly. So for me, not an issue once again.
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coonmanx
Well-Known Member
Secondary also is a great way to store 5 gallons of beer for an extended period of time. I have left beers in secondary for a few months that way and then primed them in a keg and had some of the best beer that I have ever made.
That was actually what I will call a red ale that sat in my closet for about 3 months last year. Temps were even getting up to about 80 degrees. I siphoned into a keg primed with 5/8 cup of malt extract and threw it in my friend's basement for two weeks where it was much cooler. Tapped off the first pour without putting any gas on it and it was fantastic. Seven people at a poker party nearly drained the entire keg in the span of a few hours time.
That was actually what I will call a red ale that sat in my closet for about 3 months last year. Temps were even getting up to about 80 degrees. I siphoned into a keg primed with 5/8 cup of malt extract and threw it in my friend's basement for two weeks where it was much cooler. Tapped off the first pour without putting any gas on it and it was fantastic. Seven people at a poker party nearly drained the entire keg in the span of a few hours time.
coonmanx
Well-Known Member
Of course my point to OP was that he should do the research for himself and then make a decision that is right for him.
Yes you can get a good beer when doing a secondary and not get an infection or oxidize the beer detrimentally. If you listen to the LODO people your beers are oxidized. I believe they are. However, I don't believe it is as critical as they do.
I would also say the risk is not "non-existent". If so there wouldn't be so many "Is my beer ruined?", "is my beer infected?" and "My beer tastes like crap" threads.
A large percentage of these are traced to infection or oxidation even though there is no glaring mistakes made. And of those a large percentage are ones that say - "the directions said 2 weeks primary and 2 weeks secondary...."
You are also not doing the typical secondary which would be transferred AFTER fermentation has finished.
Still I feel it is a totally unnecessary step. All you are accomplishing is a slightly more clear beer. 2 weeks or until mostly clear in primary, then package. IMO, there is usually no need for any other steps.
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Schwimbody
Active Member
This is what I love about this forum. All of this knowledge accumulated over years and years of brewing. I do not plan to move that beer at all for another 2 and a 1/2 weeks. Figure 3 weeks for a Kolsch should be good right? I can maintain temps under 70f no problem under my stairway. Then what, 2 weeks bottle fermenting? When do I refrigerate...during the whole 2 weeks they are in their new bottle homes?
After bottling, let the bottles sit somewhere ~70F to carbonate for at least 2 weeks. I often get antsy after 10 days or so and toss a single bottle in the fridge to test out a few days later. If its where I want it to be, I toss the rest in the fridge. If not, I toss another single bottle in the fridge and test again after a few days. Usually by that point I'll put the rest of the batch in the fridge.
Don't get discouraged if it isn't as clear as you'd like. I battle chill haze with regularity. Bottles will be clear going into the fridge, but the cold temp can kick up some haziness. It will drop back down after a couple weeks in the fridge in my experience. Most kolsch yeasts improved quite a bit from some cold conditioning anyway, so don't drink em all when they immediately get cold haha.
Patience. It gets easier when the pipeline gets flowing.
Don't get discouraged if it isn't as clear as you'd like. I battle chill haze with regularity. Bottles will be clear going into the fridge, but the cold temp can kick up some haziness. It will drop back down after a couple weeks in the fridge in my experience. Most kolsch yeasts improved quite a bit from some cold conditioning anyway, so don't drink em all when they immediately get cold haha.
Patience. It gets easier when the pipeline gets flowing.
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Schwimbody
Active Member
So what is the best way to chill your beer during fermentation if I want to continue to do colder temp fermentation beers? I have heard and read that there are several wine fridges that work out really well for this. I have been searching all over Houston and I cannot find any that are used. Is there a particular brand that works very well for this? I guess I have to get a temperature controller as well. And seem to remember there was a wine fridge brand that started with V but I couldn't remember which one it was.
Any type of fridge should work, if the fermenter fits. Otherwise folks modify them a bit to extend the capacity. I'm pretty low tech and brew with the seasons. My "chamber" is a large rubbermaid container. I stick ice bottles around it to cool the container, and wrap a seedling heater mat around the carboy connected to an inkbird controller.
For a better solution, check out post #6 from @mongoose33 (Sorry for calling you out, but that camo fridge is too easy to identify, and I've seen it in several posts haha)
For a better solution, check out post #6 from @mongoose33 (Sorry for calling you out, but that camo fridge is too easy to identify, and I've seen it in several posts haha)
An easy fermentation chamber is a chest freezer. A 5 cubic foot will hold one fermenter a 7 should hold 2. Use an Inkbird ITC-308 for about $35 for controlling the temperature.
Count on 3 weeks at 70 degrees for bottle conditioning. I try one bottle at 2 weeks. Some are fully carbonated some are not. All my beers have tasted better at 3 weeks or longer. I usually only chill 6 or 12 bottles at a time. Usually just overnight. The do get a little more clear if they stay in the fridge for a while. But not enough to make me wait on them.
Count on 3 weeks at 70 degrees for bottle conditioning. I try one bottle at 2 weeks. Some are fully carbonated some are not. All my beers have tasted better at 3 weeks or longer. I usually only chill 6 or 12 bottles at a time. Usually just overnight. The do get a little more clear if they stay in the fridge for a while. But not enough to make me wait on them.
Use of a secondary, warm extended aging, open transfers to keg. I suspect everyone enjoying the beer has a very high threshold for oxidation flavors. That is to say, I'm 100% certain a beer treated like that is oxidized. Whether it's a problem is a matter of perception.
coonmanx
Well-Known Member
LOL. And you are 100% wrong. In fact I'm certain that you have a very high threshold for putting nonsense on the internet....
I prime my kegs so any oxygen that would be left in there would get used up by the active yeast. Secondary is also done right after the head crashes on primary so any air that would be left in the small amount of headspace in the carboy would get pushed out by the CO2 that is still coming off of the beer at that point in time. I also make sure not to splash the beer around when siphoning at any point while transferring it.
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coonmanx
Well-Known Member
Funny how I have been brewing for 30 years now and have never had any oxidation or infected beer but some might try to say that I am simply "lucky". I disagree. Good brewing techniques get you good beer. People who claim that my beer must be oxidized have zero proof of that yet they will still make that claim because the internet is an echo chamber of nonsense at times. The problem that I see here is people making claims with absolutely nothing to back up what they say. That is not how things are done in the real world. You had better provide some proof if you make a claim.
I will put my beers up against those of anyone else at any time.
Frankly, I think some brewers like to create problems where none exist just so that they can then "solve them" at a later date.
I will put my beers up against those of anyone else at any time.
Frankly, I think some brewers like to create problems where none exist just so that they can then "solve them" at a later date.
coonmanx
Well-Known Member
But once again let me remind everyone that I said that the OP should do his own research and make an informed decision for himself. Some of you seem to have completely missed that point. Instead it's immediately off to the echo chamber with zero proof of anything....
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Schwimbody
Active Member
I appreciate all the input. I am sticking with my original plan and will be waiting for 3 weeks even though the head has crashed and it seems the fermentation has all but stopped. There is a very thin layer of fermentation left in the top of the carboy and it is only Thursday. Everybody has told me not to be concerned so I am not. I will just be waiting this out and will try to keep everything around 65 to 68ﾟ for 2 more weeks
coonmanx
Well-Known Member
Sounds good.
Well you are in the extreme minority of the opinion that oxidation is not a problem. In your case you are doing things that most do not do to alleviate the extent. (secondary while still fermenting). If you then do an open transfer you ARE oxidizing your beer. If you are careful the degree will be minimal. Some are very sensitive to the taste. I am not.
But just because you have not experienced the problem in your 30 years does not mean it doesn't exist.
coonmanx
Well-Known Member
Being in the "extreme minority" isn't an issue for me. Sometimes it is those who are in the minority and that think out of the box that are the ones who come up with the best solutions....
Well, who knows? Since we have no measurement of oxidation we are going into the realm of speculation. Is it one particle? Maybe two? Twenty? Since we have no measurement we can't say exactly. If the yeast is still active and working on an extra remaining sugars will it then utilize any oxygen that is present? If the beer is gassing off CO2 at that point will it also carry away any oxygen that is present?
I tired to post up a discussion of whether or not people should do secondary on another brewing forum and it got locked after only four pages. Seems that the subject of secondary fermentation is now a taboo and we simply will not be able to ever mention it again. And that is sad.
Maybe a closed transfer system works better. I don't know because I have never felt the need to use one and in fact have never even heard about it until now. I only go by what those who consume my final product tell me. And I have never gotten a bad review.
And BTW, the OP said he is going straight to bottling so all of these discussions about secondary are unimportant to the thread at this point in time. In fact I would say that the discussion of secondary is throwing the thread off of the rails.
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That certainly would be sad. Hopefully, we can continue to have a good discussion here and not have the thread locked.
Send a few beers into BJCP competitions if you haven't already. Post scoresheets without the oxidation boxes checked off. Point proven. Echo chamber? You mean the people you give free beer to tell you it's great? I'm just kidding. It's probably very good beer and we're a bunch of cretins for suggesting you can do things better.
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Schwimbody
Active Member
Cool... one week since brew day and it's still bubbling. One bubble every 73 seconds. Temp varies between 64 and 68 with the frozen water bottle method
