Weighing your BOMM

[renrutle]

Yesterday I started a smaller batch at OG 1.103 using just 860g honey and QA23 yeast. When there's enough data I'll post it. That way we'll see if the same formula scales to a smaller batch or whether it's particular to the 1 gallon batch size we've both been teting so far. I expect it will still hold true, but we shall see.

I had a similar thought but was going to go bigger. I think I have a 3 gallon vessel I can repurpose. Need to verify my scale can handle the additional weight. I know the scale can handle 2 gallons. What was your final volume?

I started with this scale which tops out at 6 kilos.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01JK4XPVW/ref=oh_aui_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I have been using this one for most of the trials. It tops out at 10 kilos.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07G2YTDQM/ref=oh_aui_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[NeverDie]

I had a similar thought but was going to go bigger. I think I have a 3 gallon vessel I can repurpose. Need to verify my scale can handle the additional weight. I know the scale can handle 2 gallons.

I started with this scale which tops out at 6 kilos.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01JK4XPVW/ref=oh_aui_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I have been using this one for most of the trials. It tops out at 10 kilos.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07G2YTDQM/ref=oh_aui_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

3 gallons of water would be 25 pounds, not counting the weight of the container. Higher density liquid is going to weigh more. You'd either need a scale that can handle more weight or else multiple scales like the one you already have and then add up the weights across them.

 

[renrutle]

After a lot of data collection and a bit of number crunching I submit the following for consideration.
The correlation between weight loss and SG loss looks quite good for the BOMM data sets. I included data for a water-sucrose ferment. (The lower purple line.) I expected this to have a different slope since sucrose is 100% fermentable by weight. While the sugar in honey is 100% fermentable it is only 80%-90% sugar and therefore 80%-90% fermentable by weight.

BOMM 1-3 are Orange Blossom and White Labs WLP570
BOMM 6 is Orange Blossom and RedStar Premier Blanc
BOMM 4 and 5 data was provided by NeverDie and are with Lalvin 71B-1122 and Fresco if my notes are correct.
Sucrose is with table sugar and RedStar Premier Blanc
These are all 1 gallon batches with an OG between 1.092 and 1.112.

I believe that NeverDie is running a smaller than 1 gallon batch and I plan to do a 2-2.5 gallon batch once I harvest the 1388 from a batch not covered by this experiment.

From what the data currently shows I am comfortable stating the following:
If using honey in a 1 gallon batch you can approximate the 2/3 and 1/3 sugar break nutrients additions at the 10% and 21% weight loss points.

 

[NeverDie]

After a lot of data collection and a bit of number crunching I submit the following for consideration.
The correlation between weight loss and SG loss looks quite good for the BOMM data sets. I included data for a water-sucrose ferment. (The lower purple line.) I expected this to have a different slope since sucrose is 100% fermentable by weight. While the sugar in honey is 100% fermentable it is only 80%-90% sugar and therefore 80%-90% fermentable by weight.

BOMM 1-3 are Orange Blossom and White Labs WLP570
BOMM 6 is Orange Blossom and RedStar Premier Blanc
BOMM 4 and 5 data was provided by NeverDie and are with Lalvin 71B-1122 and Fresco if my notes are correct.
Sucrose is with table sugar and RedStar Premier Blanc
These are all 1 gallon batches with an OG between 1.092 and 1.112.

I believe that NeverDie is running a smaller than 1 gallon batch and I plan to do a 2-2.5 gallon batch once I harvest the 1388 from a batch not covered by this experiment.

From what the data currently shows I am comfortable stating the following:
If using honey in a 1 gallon batch you can approximate the 2/3 and 1/3 sugar break nutrients additions at the 10% and 21% weight loss points.

View attachment 619683

Nice work!

Yes, I am running a smaller batch of somewhere around 2.5-02.8L using 860g of honey and QA23 as the yeast. OG was 1.103, so the first sugar break should be 1.069. As it turns out, it just now reached that first sugar break, and 102g of weight were lost, so more than the predicted 10% if it had been a 1 gallon batch. I'll continue tracking it through the second sugar break and then post all the measurements that I took relating to this batch.

I wonder if the difference can be attributed in some way to the QA23 yeast? I think I've read that some yeasts are able to digest more than others. For instance, allegedly 71B can digest malic acid. Not sure about QA23.

I'll be very interested to hear how the numbers for your larger batch come out.

The more datapoints the better. If anyone else reading this would like to contribute data, it would be very helpful and much appreciated!

 

[NeverDie]

I was surprised to read that some people don't actually mix their honey, but instead let it sit at the bottom:

Allegedly (I haven't tried it) the yeast will eat through it anyway. I would think that it would be a slower process than if it were all mixed together, but who knows?

I suppose if you had a very straight sided transparent container (not rounded, as in the photo), you could draw lines at the 1/3 and 2/3 mark on the honey height and maybe use that are your sugar break indicator? I'm sure it wouldn't be as precise as weighing, but then again, maybe close enough? And it would be even quicker to check than weighing, and obviously much quicker than taking a formal manual hydrometer reading.

Come to think of it, any container would do. Just add 1/3 the honey first. Mark the height of that. Then add another 1/3 of the honey and mark the height of that. Add the final 1/3, then add the rest of the must on top without stirring.

Hmm.. I''m intrigued!

 

[NeverDie]

I've taken to weighing to decide when fermentation is done. It's actually more sensitive than SG, because a drop of just one point in SG translates to multiple grams of loss. So, if you measure to the nearest gram, and nothing changes over enough time, then it's done. At least that's the theory I'm going with for now.

 

[Miraculix]

I've taken to weighing to decide when fermentation is done. It's actually more sensitive than SG, because a drop of just one point in SG translates to multiple grams of loss. So, if you measure to the nearest gram, and nothing changes over enough time, then it's done. At least that's the theory I'm going with for now.

Makes sense! Actually a very good thing as you don't even need to open the fermenter.

 

[NeverDie]

Makes sense! Actually a very good thing as you don't even need to open the fermenter.

Right! That's the whole idea in a nutshell. Plus it's faster, objective (you have a digital number on the scale and are not squinting at a hydrometer and trying to decide what the nearest SG is), and no contamination risk.

According to this criteria, one of the yeast strains in my experiment may have finished. All the rest have dropped by at least 1 gram since the last measurement on 3/27. Some of that may just be off-gassing of dissolved CO2, but this is a conservative approach. I'll give it more time and measure again.

 

[NeverDie]

My QA23 batch reached its second sugar break at 1.034. Total weight lost was 191g. That's 22% of the 860g of honey that was added at the beginning.

So, not spot on with the earlier 1 gallon predictions that renrutle summarized above, but not terribly far off either.


So, if you assume 11% honey weight lost for the first sugar break, and 22% honey weight lost for the second sugar break, you get an accurate prediction at this smaller scale. That compares to 10% and 21% at the 1 gallon scale.

 

[renrutle]

My QA23 batch reached its second sugar break at 1.034. Total weight lost was 191g. That's 22% of the 860g of honey that was added at the beginning.

So, not spot on with the earlier 1 gallon predictions that renrutle summarized above, but not terribly far off either.


So, if you assume 11% honey weight lost for the first sugar break, and 22% honey weight lost for the second sugar break, you get an accurate prediction at this smaller scale. That compares to 10% and 21% at the 1 gallon scale.

That data looks promising to support this method of approximating Bray's official procedure.

Can you keep track of these 6 data points for each of the batches you are making? I am doing the same. My chemistry-math research indicates that the weight change plotted vs the SG change should be linear. Our experimental data seems to back this up.

Honey weight
Volume
Beginning weight
Final weight
Starting SG
Final SG

I've taken to weighing to decide when fermentation is done. It's actually more sensitive than SG, because a drop of just one point in SG translates to multiple grams of loss. So, if you measure to the nearest gram, and nothing changes over enough time, then it's done. At least that's the theory I'm going with for now.

I am waiting on my 1388 batch to stop losing weight to begin a ~2 gallon batch. Current weight loss is ~2-3g/day.

 

[NeverDie]

That data looks promising to support this method of approximating Bray's official procedure.

Can you keep track of these 6 data points for each of the batches you are making? I am doing the same. My chemistry-math research indicates that the weight change plotted vs the SG change should be linear. Our experimental data seems to back this up.

Honey weight
Volume
Beginning weight
Final weight
Starting SG
Final SG

It will be some time before I start any new batches. I have something like 30 different batches all in various stages of fermentation right now, and I need to see how they turn out before I start any more. Part of them were experimental batches, and the rest was priming the pipeline so I can have more optimally aged mead in the future.

 

[NeverDie]

The early results are that if I rack the mead off the lees and then give it a thorough degassing in a vacuum chamber, the weight stops dropping.

 

[NeverDie]

The evidence is in, and the weighing method works for determining when fermentation is fully done. By fully done, I mean including degassing/outgassing, because I guess technically speaking fermentation may be done before full degassing/outgassing is complete. As I posted in a different thread, D47 hasn't dropped even 1 gram in the last 6 days, and it is also fully outgassed (if I seal the container the D47 mead is in and shake it up violently, there is no PFFT! when I open it up). It is also fully floculatted and clear. From pitching the yeast to fully finished took about 30 days, plus an additional 6 days to confirm completion using the weighing method.

For automated monitoring of when fermentation is complete using an arduino scale, I'm pretty sure this will work, provided there is no significant scale measurement drift or creep that would throw it off by having the mead constantly sitting on the scale. It seems not to be a problem if using a manual scale where the mead is removed after weighing. So, setting up such an automatically monitored scale will be next to try, with a stable temperature environment.