Water report and how low calcium affects beer

[h22lude]

My AG beers all seem to have this off flavor to it. I can't put my finger on what the flavor is. I can taste it in all my beers. It isn't terrible but it definitely makes the beer not what it should be. I just recently made a saison. It tasted great about a week ago. Now that flavor is back. I have cleaned everything very well. I soaked my kegs, I scrubbed the connections, I ran cleaner through my lines for 30 minutes. I'm hoping it has something to do with my water.

I use 100% tap water with no mineral additions. I got a lab report back in 2012. I just purchased another one from Ward Labs which went in the mail today.

Here are my numbers from 2012.

pH 8.9
Na 12
K <1
CA 19
Mg <1
Total Hardness CaCO3 52
NO3-N <.1
SO4-S 11
Cl 19
Co3 6
HCO3 15
Total Alkalinity CaCO3 22
P .69
Fe .04


I know my calcium is on the low end. How would this affect my beer. Could my water be causing any off flavors?

 

[porterpounder]

Overall you have low to very low levels of everything. Unless there is some sort of issue with the local water supply (some of the water up here on the coast smells a bit like low-tide to outsiders), it's not likely you water. Are you running it through a filter before brewing? That may help. Otherwise it may be a process issue, especially since it seems by your description that it can come on later (oxidation?). Calcium should be kept above 50 ppm for yeast health and clarity. Other considerations regarding Gypsum, CaCl2 and CaCO3 are a whole added discussion.

 

[h22lude]

I have thought about oxidation but I don't know when that would happen. This batch I made sure to minimize it. I used starsan in my keg and pushed it out with CO2 so there should be very little O2 in my keg. I opened my bucket and used an autosiphon into the keg. I use a long tube to minimize splashing at the bottom.

To me, the water tastes fine. The calcium is pretty low. I was hoping that was my issue since it is an easy fix. I don't use any kind of filter. I go straight from the tap.

 

[doug293cz]

Is the off taste mediciny or plasticy? If so, it may be from chlorophenols, which are formed when you have chlorine or chloramine in your water. Read this sticky on using campden to fix the problem, if that's what it is.

Brew on

 

[mabrungard]

Assuming you are on a municipal water supply, chlorine compounds in the water would create off flavors if you haven't been removing or neutralizing those compounds. I don't find that low calcium will create off flavors. I do find that low mineral content like your can produce bland flavor in some beers. Your water is only a step away from RO quality.

If you have been concentrating on pale beers, then its possible that you've been suffering the effects of high pH. Even when brewing with RO or distilled water, a pale mash grist still needs a little help in getting the pH down to proper levels. Conversely, if you've been brewing dark beers, the pH may have been too low since roast grains are more acidic than pale malts.

 

[h22lude]

I haven't been doing anything to remove chlorine. Maybe that could be my issue. Most of my beers are pale beers. Is 19ppm chloride a higher level that can cause off flavors. This flavor is hard to figure out. The flavor is in all of my beers that I can remember. Some worse than others. Tasting it right now I can taste a little bandaid. Not sure if that is just because you mentioned it and it was in my head.

 

[doug293cz]

I haven't been doing anything to remove chlorine. Maybe that could be my issue. Most of my beers are pale beers. Is 19ppm a higher level that can cause off flavors. This flavor is hard to figure out. The flavor is in all of my beers that I can remember. Some worse than others. Tasting it right now I can taste a little bandaid. Not sure if that is just because you mentioned it and it was in my head.

The "Cl" in your water report is chloride ion. That level is not a problem. Chlorine is usually in the 1 - 2 ppm range. Not sure about typical chloramine levels where that is used instead of pure chlorine.

Brew on

 

[h22lude]

The "Cl" in your water report is chloride ion. That level is not a problem. Chlorine is usually in the 1 - 2 ppm range. Not sure about typical chloramine levels where that is used instead of pure chlorine.

Brew on

Ward Labs doesn't test for chlorine. I did find this water report from my town. It looks like chlorine is at .31ppm which I assume is low. So is chlorine not the issue then?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1Hm9WXVzFZDVmR4OFdGTVJDS3M/view

 

[Yooper]

Ward Labs doesn't test for chlorine. I did find this water report from my town. It looks like chlorine is at .31ppm which I assume is low. So is chlorine not the issue then?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1Hm9WXVzFZDVmR4OFdGTVJDS3M/view

No, it would be. ANY chlorine reacts with malt. I think the taste threshold in the finished beer is something like parts per billion, not ppm.

You can add 1 crushed campden tablet to 20 gallons of water, stir well, and totally eliminate chlorine, or chloramines (a more stable form of chlorine used by many municipalities). If it's chlorine, often just letting the water sit out overnight is enough to eliminate it, but chloramines don't off-gas like chlorine does.

 

[h22lude]

No, it would be. ANY chlorine reacts with malt. I think the taste threshold in the finished beer is something like parts per billion, not ppm.

You can add 1 crushed campden tablet to 20 gallons of water, stir well, and totally eliminate chlorine, or chloramines (a more stable form of chlorine used by many municipalities). If it's chlorine, often just letting the water sit out overnight is enough to eliminate it, but chloramines don't off-gas like chlorine does.

Why am I not thinking this correctly? If the threshold was ppb, wouldn't .3ppm be ok? My brain isn't working right now lol

I think my next batch will actually be your yellow fizzy beer. Something that I can easily detect off flavors in. I'll leave my water out over night. I usually start with 9 gallons, should I only do half a tablet? Should I boil it the night before or just leave it out?

 

[Yooper]

Why am I not thinking this correctly? If the threshold was ppb, wouldn't .3ppm be ok?

I think my next batch will actually be your yellow fizzy beer. Something that I can easily detect off flavors in. I'll leave my water out over night. I usually start with 9 gallons, should I only do half a tablet? Should I boil it the night before or just leave it out?

PPB is a minuscule amount, as parts per billion is a tiny bit compared to parts per million. For example, .3 ppm is 300 ppb! The taste threshold for chlorophenols (that clove-like or plastic flavor, or even 'band-aid') is extremely low. 1-5 ppb is said to be discernable, you may have 300 ppb. That's a lot.

Leaving it out all night is probably enough, if it's chlorine. But if you want to ensure that it's gone, using 1/2 tablet for your brewing water and stirring well before heating the water should do it.

 

[h22lude]

PPB is a minuscule amount, as parts per billion is a tiny bit compared to parts per million. For example, .3 ppm is 300 ppb! The taste threshold for chlorophenols (that clove-like or plastic flavor, or even 'band-aid') is extremely low. 1-5 ppb is said to be discernable, you may have 300 ppb. That's a lot.

Leaving it out all night is probably enough, if it's chlorine. But if you want to ensure that it's gone, using 1/2 tablet for your brewing water and stirring well before heating the water should do it.

Oh yeah ok I get it now. It just took a second. I was thinking of it as the other way...ppb would be harder to taste. The threshold is ppb so if it was ppm the taste would come through more.

I may do both just to be safe. See if that fixes it. I would like to know if leaving it out would fix it by itself but I am sick of brewing these beers and getting this off flavor. If leaving it out and 1/2 a tablet fixes it, I'll just do that.

Is there anything else I can look at that would cause this problem? I know it is tough to tell without being able to taste what this off flavor is. I wish it was easy to send some bottles to people that have a good sense of off flavors.

 

[doug293cz]

Oh yeah ok I get it now. It just took a second. I was thinking of it as the other way...ppb would be harder to taste. The threshold is ppb so if it was ppm the taste would come through more.

I may do both just to be safe. See if that fixes it. I would like to know if leaving it out would fix it by itself but I am sick of brewing these beers and getting this off flavor. If leaving it out and 1/2 a tablet fixes it, I'll just do that.

Is there anything else I can look at that would cause this problem? I know it is tough to tell without being able to taste what this off flavor is. I wish it was easy to send some bottles to people that have a good sense of off flavors.

Do you belong to a brew club. Clubs very often have BJCP judges, or other very experienced brewers, who can give you very useful feedback.

Brew on

 

[h22lude]

Do you belong to a brew club. Clubs very often have BJCP judges, or other very experienced brewers, who can give you very useful feedback.

Brew on

That's a great idea. I don't belong to a club but I do know there is a local club. I'll email them. I'm going to bring some to my lhbs too. The owner is usually good with that kind of thing.

The weird thing about it is the beer tasted like a good saison a week ago. Nice spice notes to it. Now I have this off flavors. The beer is still drinkable but it doesn't resemble a saison like it did. Any pale beer starts to taste like this after a few weeks. Could chlorine cause off flavors to show up weeks after kegging?

Could starsan cause this flavor? I use my tap water with starsan. Usually make a new batch up each brew day. I do have a spray bottle that I keep starsan in to spray random parts. Maybe my starsan is bad? Or maybe using my tap water with it is causing a weird reaction?

 

[mabrungard]

StarSan does not typically cause taste or odor problems in beer. What could be happening is that you may have an infection problem that isn't cured by StarSan. I suggest alternating your sanitizer with Iodophor to help avoid lingering problems that StarSan isn't capable of treating.

As Lorena pointed out, your chlorine content is more than high enough to create perceptible chlorophenol problems in beer. Do take measures to correct that.

 

[h22lude]

StarSan does not typically cause taste or odor problems in beer. What could be happening is that you may have an infection problem that isn't cured by StarSan. I suggest alternating your sanitizer with Iodophor to help avoid lingering problems that StarSan isn't capable of treating.

As Lorena pointed out, your chlorine content is more than high enough to create perceptible chlorophenol problems in beer. Do take measures to correct that.

I've never used iodophor but will pick some up when I go to the brew store. I also want to replace all my plastic and tubing. The only thing I can see being an issue is my plastic buckets. My tubing and siphon have always been washed right after use. I am starting to use a stainless racking cane. I want to try glass carboy or keg for fermenting to get away from plastic.

Do you recommend any tester? Or just a cheap tester from a pool or aquarium store?

Edit: just found a reader by hanna instruments that reads free chlorine. $50. Not too bad and it is accurate to .03 ppm. If chlorine is the issue, it would be good for me to have this so I can check it out every brew day after leaving my water out over night.

 

[PlinyTheMiddleAged]

Edit: just found a reader by hanna instruments that reads free chlorine. $50. Not too bad and it is accurate to .03 ppm. If chlorine is the issue, it would be good for me to have this so I can check it out every brew day after leaving my water out over night.

h22,

I'd pass on the chlorine reader - you can buy a lot of Campden tablets for $50. Just get rid of the chlorine/chloramines. That may not be the problem that you are chasing, but they do cause awful flavors. Just drop in a half tablet per 5 gallons of water, stir, and know that you now have zero chlorine - easy and cheap.

Good luck!

 

[h22lude]

h22,

I'd pass on the chlorine reader - you can buy a lot of Campden tablets for $50. Just get rid of the chlorine/chloramines. That may not be the problem that you are chasing, but they do cause awful flavors. Just drop in a half tablet per 5 gallons of water, stir, and know that you now have zero chlorine - easy and cheap.

Good luck!

That's is a good point but my thinking is, if I can test my water after leaving it out over night and now for sure there is no chlorine, I may not even need the tablets.

 

[ajdelange]

Somebody has, I believe, already directed you to https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=361073
He did that because he thought you might benefit from the info there as it is relevant to the questions you are asking. Read it. Among other things it tells you how to get a pretty good ideas as to whether you have a chloramine problem with out any tester other than your nose.

If you want to be certain (more certain than your nose) there are test strips https://www.filtersfast.com/filters/Chlorine-And-Chloramine-Test-Strips

There is no guarantee that chloramine is the problem, of course, but you might want to check that off the list.

Campden tablets are very cheap insurance.

 

[h22lude]

Somebody has, I believe, already directed you to https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=361073
He did that because he thought you might benefit from the info there as it is relevant to the questions you are asking. Read it. Among other things it tells you how to get a pretty good ideas as to whether you have a chloramine problem with out any tester other than your nose.

If you want to be certain (more certain than your nose) there are test strips https://www.filtersfast.com/filters/Chlorine-And-Chloramine-Test-Strips

There is no guarantee that chloramine is the problem, of course, but you might want to check that off the list.

Campden tablets are very cheap insurance.

I have been reading that thread. It has good info in it. My next batch I will be using a tablet and letting it sit out overnight to see if that helps.

I'm hoping that fixes things. Not sure what else it could be.

 

[ajdelange]

If you let a volume of water sit overnight the chlorine should leave it (if the volume isn't too great) but the chloramine won't. If you add a Campden tablet there is not point in letting it sit overnight as any chlorine will be immediately converted to chloride. This doesn't mean that you can't add the Campden tablet the night before if you want to.

 

[h22lude]

If you let a volume of water sit overnight the chlorine should leave it (if the volume isn't too great) but the chloramine won't. If you add a Campden tablet there is not point in letting it sit overnight as any chlorine will be immediately converted to chloride. This doesn't mean that you can't add the Campden tablet the night before if you want to.

Thanks aj. I'll try using just Campden tablets my next brew. I use about 9 gallons of water. I'll cut one in half. Hopefully this fixes my off flavor issue. I'll also need to add some calcium to my water. I'll most likely wait until I get my new water test.

 

[h22lude]

Just poured a glass of water and took a sniff. Can definitely smell chlorine when I first pour a glass. It does seem to dissipate pretty quickly. I take a second sniff and it isn't as strong but then I pour another glass right after and can smell it again. It is looking like it is pointing towards chlorine or chloramine in the water. Campden tablets will be on my list when I go get my next batch of grains.

 

[Yesfan]

Where has your FGs been on some recent batches? I'm kinda going through the same thing, but my problem still seems to persist even after using campden tablets. All my FGs have been below 1.010. I've bought fresh yeast (which arrived earlier today), so I'm hoping maybe my issues have been with some of the slurries from harvested batches I had been using being infected.


I'm fairly diligent in my brewing, especially with sanitation. I think I'm going to amp that up a bit more and be a lot more detailed in my brew log too.

 

[ajdelange]

Just poured a glass of water and took a sniff. Can definitely smell chlorine when I first pour a glass. It does seem to dissipate pretty quickly.

OK. Now do what it says in the Sticky. Let a glass sit out over night and sniff that in the AM whilst pouring it back and forth into another glass. If you don't smell chlorine you probably don't have chloramine. Try calling your supplier and asking them if they chloraminate.

 

[h22lude]

Where has your FGs been on some recent batches? I'm kinda going through the same thing, but my problem still seems to persist even after using campden tablets. All my FGs have been below 1.010. I've bought fresh yeast (which arrived earlier today), so I'm hoping maybe my issues have been with some of the slurries from harvested batches I had been using being infected.


I'm fairly diligent in my brewing, especially with sanitation. I think I'm going to amp that up a bit more and be a lot more detailed in my brew log too.

Mine have been below 1.010 as well but my recent beers have been pretty low ABV and all ended right where they should have. That is what is getting me annoyed. My entire process is pretty good. My mash temps are great. I chill right down to pitching temp. Ferment in a fridge at the right temp. Sanitize everything well with star san. Use fresh yeast usually with a yeast starter. The only thing I really don't touch is my tap water. If this doesn't fix it, I'm going to replace all my plastics. If that doesn't work, well then I'm out of ideas.

OK. Now do what it says in the Sticky. Let a glass sit out over night and sniff that in the AM whilst pouring it back and forth into another glass. If you don't smell chlorine you probably don't have chloramine. Try calling your supplier and asking them if they chloraminate.

Yup, that is what I'm going to do tonight. I'm going to call the water commission tomorrow as well.

 

[h22lude]

OK. Now do what it says in the Sticky. Let a glass sit out over night and sniff that in the AM whilst pouring it back and forth into another glass. If you don't smell chlorine you probably don't have chloramine. Try calling your supplier and asking them if they chloraminate.

I did just sniff the water while pouring it back and forth. I could barely smell anything at all. The strongest smell I get is pouring it right out of the tap.

I just spoke to my water department and he confirmed they don't use chloramine. I am emailing him my address and he is going to provide me with the ppm for a location closest to my house.

Even if they don't use chloramine, I may still use half a campden tablet just to be on the safe side. It won't hurt anything.

Edit: Heard back from the water department. .47ppm go into the water supply and the last measurement near my house it was .2ppm.