Water Heater Busted...

[IslandLizard]

It was inevitable, just a matter of when.

Saturday night our water heater busted, sizzling, leaking water, yielding it inoperable. <ugh!>

It's oil fired, 26 years old (!), came with the house. Doesn't owe us anything, just bad timing, without (ample) warning.
Looked into replacement ($$$$, whaaat?) hmm, how about something else...

On-demand gas water heaters are all the rage, but... we don't have gas in the street here. An electric on-demand water heater, suitable for our wants/needs hogs around 24kW! That's 100 Amp draw, ouch!

Our service panel is 200A, aside from customary smaller loads, we have some heavy users on it already:

• Heat pump (external) unit (20-40A)
• Air handler's "accessory" heating coil that kicks on in Winter when temps drop below 30F and the heat pump can't keep up. (70A)! It barely comes on since we keep ambient temps relatively low and steady.
• Stove/oven (20-40A)
• Induction plate (15A)
• Clothes dryer (20-30A), sparsely used.
• Hot tub (30-50A) we're definitely installing this year.

Average minimum general daily demand around 100A. Turns into 170A when that heater coil kicks in.

You get the picture, there is no 100A reserve for an on-demand electric water heater of decent capacity.

Putting that extra 80-100A on-demand user on there would surely be pushing it at times in Winter (i.e., when the acc. heating coil kicks in).

We're also pretty much out of spaces in the panel, so I'd need to combine or "tandem breaker" a few circuits to open up more slots. Or install a subpanel to feed a new o-d water heater (pig!).

Adding a second 200A service or converting to a larger (400A) one is pretty much out of the question at this time, but would surely be more future proof!

Suggestions?

 

[mirthfuldragon]

Look's like someone's getting a new traditional tank-style hot water heater. Set up a schedule to drain the tank regularly, and to change out the anodes every few years, especially if you have hard or soft water. Or buy a new one every decade or so.

On demand is really nifty and never running out of hot water is great, but if you don't have the ampacity for it, it is what it is.

 

[IslandLizard]

Look's like someone's getting a new traditional tank-style hot water heater. Set up a schedule to drain the tank regularly, and to change out the anodes every few years, especially if you have hard or soft water. Or buy a new one every decade or so.

On demand is really nifty and never running out of hot water is great, but if you don't have the ampacity for it, it is what it is.

Yeah, the lack of ampacity is key. I wondered if putting a 2nd or larger service in would make any sense.

We really like having the oil-fired water tank as the recovery rate is excellent. You basically never run out of hot water either. A regular 2 element, 9000 or 11000W (38-46A) 30-50 gallon electric tank sucks in the recovery domain from what I remember.

 

[Dland]

Or stay with oil fired, as you presumably have that infrastructure in place. That is probably what I'd do anyway. I like having multiple energy sources. If power goes out you still have hot water with small generator.

Even electric tank heater will draw 30-40A, which leaves little reserve on electrical service. Unless you go to 400A, which as you know is expensive.

 

[BalloonGuy]

if you have the option of in ground propane it is worth looking in to. I had a big tank installed for about $2K. It supplies 2 clothes dryers, the oven, cook top, grill and on demand heater. I have 4 kids so we go through a lot of clothes and showers. Gas cost me about $50.00 a month. It was a great decision. It is also nice to be able to take a hot shower after a hurricane or any other power outage.

 

[IslandLizard]

Or stay with oil fired, as you presumably have that infrastructure in place. That is probably what I'd do anyway. I like having multiple energy sources. If power goes out you still have hot water with small generator.

Even electric tank heater will draw 30-40A, which leaves little reserve on electrical service. Unless you go to 400A, which as you know is expensive.

Yeah, everything is still there. The oil storage tank is fairly new, outside and covered under a 3-seasons room. Simply slide another heater in its place.

I too like the multiple energy sources, although our power supply has been very good and consistent. Very few outages or interruptions that lasted more than a few minutes, none over 4 hours, in the 10 years we've been here. Heck, I can see the power plant from here, less than 3 miles as the crow flies.

Good news:
I've got a lead on a 4-year old used one so it's already looking more positive in that direction.

 

[twd000]

check out the heat-pump water heaters, they've come a long way recently. 3 BTUs of hot water for every 1 BTU of electricity input.

Get a 65 gallon tank so you don't need on-demand reheat. Standby losses are minimal.

Depending on your utility in MD, there are rebates up to $500 available

https://bgesmartenergy.com/residential/get-rebates/heat-pump-water-heater

 

[IslandLizard]

if you have the option of in ground propane it is worth looking in to. I had a big tank installed for about $2K. It supplies 2 clothes dryers, the oven, cook top, grill and on demand heater. I have 4 kids so we go through a lot of clothes and showers. Gas cost me about $50.00 a month. It was a great decision. It is also nice to be able to take a hot shower after a hurricane or any other power outage.

For $50 a month you're getting a lot of good usage for your buck. I'm impressed!

I don't think they bury (gas) tanks here, the ones around here are all above ground, AFAIK. But I wouldn't be able to see the other ones now, huh?

 

[IslandLizard]

check out the heat-pump water heaters, they've come a long way recently. 3 BTUs of hot water for every 1 BTU of electricity input.

Get a 65 gallon tank so you don't need on-demand reheat. Standby losses are minimal.

Depending on your utility in MD, there are rebates up to $500 available

https://bgesmartenergy.com/residential/get-rebates/heat-pump-water-heater

I thought their recovery rate sucked terribly, at least last time I checked, 10 years ago.
But it's definitely an alternative to consider if they've come around.

Thanks, I'll check 'em out again.

 

[Mike_kever_kombi]

Is your HLT large enough to bathe in?

You could start heating strike water, bathe, then mash in. Extremely efficient, plus you would of be doing your part to help save water and the environment.

Stinky lizard IPA

 

[FrostyBeach]

We have a ground source heat pump and it has a desuperheater that preheats potable water in an insulated tank (a 50 gallon electric heater with no electrical connection) that's fed to a small on demand system. That overcomes the poor recovery rate. Ground water here this time of year is about 4dC. You could make something similar with small on demand heater(s) if it makes sense.

 

[IslandLizard]

Is your HLT large enough to bathe in?

You could start heating strike water, bathe, then mash in. Extremely efficient, plus you would of be doing your part to help save water and the environment.

Stinky lizard IPA

Who said we don't do that already?
The bathtub makes a great (I mean large) HLT, and mash tun. Has a drain already, with a 1.5" T-valve to redirect from waste to elsewhere. It's the going up the steps each time, to stir, that makes it so inconvenient.

Were you thinking we're getting the hot tub just to enjoy and hang out in, and drink beer? Of course it's a brewing system, and it's fully deductible that way.

It's Danky Lizard IPA!

 

[twd000]

I thought their recovery rate sucked terribly, at least last time I checked, 10 years ago.
But it's definitely an alternative to consider if they've come around.

Thanks, I'll check 'em out again.

the recovery rate of a heat pump water heater is certainly slower than gas or oil. But the idea is that you get a larger tank, so you can afford to wait for it to recover. Most shower heads are 1.25 GPM so a 66-gallon tank gives you an hour of continuous hot water before it needs to recover. That's a lot of showers, or one long shower!

a 30A/240V breaker will be fine

the overall energy market trends look to be moving away from oil and gas, with lots of incentives to "electrify everything"

Since you're not using the oil tank for anything else, getting it out of the basement is a good idea anyway - just ask anyone who has had an oil spill to cleanup!

 

[Deadalus]

If you have to go electric, consider wrapping your tank with insulation and installing a 240V timer. The timer is cheaper than a "Smart" water heater. Hot or warm water for most laundry is unnecessary. Front loader will save a lot of water too. Depending on your home layout, high use areas might benefit from a tankless heater in one room and perhaps might not overload the system. The electric ones though aren't as good an option as gas.

Oh and going to the gym early in the morning is helpful if you use their shower. The main problem is where the entire household wants to shower in the morning as far as capacity. Low flow showerheads if you don't have the.

Putting a timer on your spouse's use will end badly.

 

[IslandLizard]

the recover rate of a heat pump water heater is certainly slower than gas or oil. But the idea is that you have a larger tank, so you can afford to wait for it to recover. Most shower heads are 1.25 GPM so a 66-gallon tank gives you an hour of continuous hot water before it needs to recover.

a 30A/240V breaker will be fine

the overall energy market trends look to be moving away from oil and gas, with lots of incentives to "electrify everything"

Since you're not using the oil tank for anything else, getting it out of the basement is a good idea anyway - just ask anyone who has had an oil spill to cleanup!

Thanks for pointing me into the direction of those heat pump water heaters. Looking at the Rheem XE50T10HD50U1 right now. Not sure we really need the next larger, 80 gallon model, seems to provide plenty of hot water with a very decent recovery rate. It's just the 2 of us here most of the time.

The link to the BGE energy rebate makes these heaters much more lucrative.

The oil tank I have is outside, away from rain and wet weather. I'm glad about that, yeah.

At my previous home I had a small leak in one tank when the bottom had slowly started to rust through. They had been under the covered front porch, but still a damp area, for 50+ years I reckon.

 

[IslandLizard]

Putting a timer on your spouse's use will end badly.

We learn quickly, don't we?

That's why I'm so set on getting her (nearly) endless hot water and a good recovery rate during extended use.

 

[twd000]

Thanks for pointing me into the direction of those heat pump water heaters. Looking at the Rheem XE50T10HD50U1 right now. Not sure we really need the next larger, 80 gallon model, seems to provide plenty of hot water with a very decent recovery rate. It's just the 2 of us here most of the time.

The link to the BGE energy rebate makes these heaters much more lucrative.

The oil tank I have is outside, away from rain and wet weather. I'm glad about that, yeah.

At my previous home I had a small leak in one tank when the bottom had slowly started to rust through. They had been under the covered front porch, but still a damp area, for 50+ years I reckon.

my coworker just got a Rheem HPWH and he loves it. They're a household of 3 and it's never gone into recovery mode on a 66-gallon tank

 

[lump42]

We've had a solar water heater with electric backup installed at our office since 2001. It helps keep our office in the bottom 5% for commercial buildings during energy audits. It'll cost a bit more upfront but over long run it'll save energy. Maintenance isn't much more than a standard electric WH.

 

[IslandLizard]

my coworker just got a Rheem HPWH and he loves it. They're a household of 3 and it's never gone into recovery mode on a 66-gallon tank

Ah, I just found the 65 gallon version of the one I was looking at.

There's also a 2020 $300 Federal tax credit on a bunch of energy star appliances. Alas there's a sleazy catch:

• Tax credit has a lifetime limit of $500 for qualifying credits taken since 2006

So I guess we need to check our records, we may have taken that already. Jeez, a 15 year look back period. The Feds...

 

[twd000]

yeah you'll quickly hit the cap on the Fed tax credit if you ever did solar panels or other efficient appliances. I used mine on a wood stove a couple years ago.

Most of the meaningful rebates are at the state/utility level now. There are a lot of programs for reducing greenhouse gas emissions from the power grid, and heat pumps are a good way for utilities to hit their objectives.

 

[Kirkwooder]

+1 on the Propane idea. Our 330 gallon tank sits behind some bushes about 200' from the house, out of the way, so it's not much of an eyesore. We heat water, dry clothes, cook, and run the furnace for supplemental heat for the times the wood furnace isn't keeping up. (a.k.a. not being kept loaded.) Our total cost for the year runs between $600-$800. New 40 gallon heaters can be had for $400.00, and no stinky fuel oil to deal with.

 

[Deadalus]

For several large residential renewable projects I don't think the $500 cap applies:
Geothermal heat pumps
Small wind turbines
Solar energy (photovoltaic and hot water)
Fuel cells.

I got the biomass stove rebate myself too and that pretty much maxed out my lifetime.

 

[bleme]

Can you imagine how much more efficient it would be to run the house, the fridge, and the water heater all off the same heat pump?

 

[Brooothru]

if you have the option of in ground propane it is worth looking in to. I had a big tank installed for about $2K. It supplies 2 clothes dryers, the oven, cook top, grill and on demand heater. I have 4 kids so we go through a lot of clothes and showers. Gas cost me about $50.00 a month. It was a great decision. It is also nice to be able to take a hot shower after a hurricane or any other power outage.

Even an 'above ground' tank is a good alternative. About twelve or 15 years ago when I was traveling quite a bit for work, during the colder months we burned wood in two traditional fireplaces. Not particularly efficient, but the excess of BTUs would certainly remove any chill in the house. I'd be gone for several days at a time, so when SWMBO'd got home from her job there'd be nobody to build her a fire. So before leaving on a trip I would pre-build a 'match ready' fire for her to light. Problem was I never got to enjoy the warm glow and ended up having to clean the ashes and build a new one when I got home.

So we got gas inserts. Flip a switch and instant fire. No more stacking firewood, no more cleaning out the ash pit. The initial purchase and installation hurt a bit but the convenience is great. The oil/gas retailer installed an 80 gallon propane tank near the masonry for the existing fireplaces and the lines from the regulator on the tank. We refill 2-3 times during the season, usually no more than 40-50 gallons each time, and we use it quite a lot. The Man Cave downstairs FP looks like a Vermont Castings stove, so in the event of an extended power outage we can shut off the room and have 70F warmth for several weeks on a full tank and cook on the cast iron casing. An outside portable 7,000 watt generator will run for five hours on a 3 gallon fuel fill to give us intermittent electricity for TV, internet and battery charging.

The last time we needed to use it for that purpose was four years ago shortly after our second grand-daughter was born. We had four adults, two kids and two Boxer males sheltered from the blizzard outside. We were all ready to scream from cabin fever after a day or two, but we didn't freeze! Sure am glad we had the gas fireplaces.

Brooo Brother

 

[day_trippr]

fwiw, wrt propane cylinders and where they can be located, some jurisdictions have a size-based set of rules that eventually leads to burial requirement. At our primary residence we have a 100 gallon that sits on a downstairs deck snug against an exterior wall, no problemo with local code. Otoh, we have a 500 gallon at our ski house in northern NH that had to be buried 50' away by local requirements, all that shows is a domed "conning tower" with the gauge and fill port under the cap...

Cheers!

 

[Kent88]

I'm looking at a different water heater as well, as the existing unit in the house we bought is probably half as old as I am (the previous owner must have been extremely diligent replacing the rod). Want to figure it out before this one fails.

I was looking at the instantaneous/tankless water heater, but apparently they don't do the job that well if the supply water is too cold. Now I'm considering a unit like what twd suggested with the built-in heat pump. Problem is that there isn't much heat around the water heater in the winter. I think it's common for those to have different modes/settings, though, so maybe in the winter I could have it working differently than in the summer?

Off-topic, I'm also considering an overhaul of the heating/cooling system in this house, possibly putting in a heat pump. If that happens I wish I could just plug my water heater into that system. In the winter just treat it like another part of the house to heat (with a backup heat source), and in the summer dump the heat from the house into it.

Good luck, keep us posted.

 

[AJinJacksonville]

Island: took a 22 mile hiking trip with our Scout troop this past weekend and spent alot of time talking hybrid water heaters, heat pump-style 80 gallons (which you referenced above) and electric tankless water heaters. We have 200 Amp residential service, and currently have two traditional electric hot water heaters (one 40 gallon and one 50 gallon) to service two sides of the house. We have a hot water source pipe from the newly (7 years ago) renovated kitchen that is leaking in our slab...so...I'm in a similar position. I have been researching the Stiebel Eltron (German company if it isn't obvious) and called our electrician out to check out our e-service to see what model will work. I'm considering the Eltron 24 Plus (24kw version), which lists that in our climate, it will handle three showers and a sink operating simultaneously. We have five people in our 2700sq house, and our electrician (who has no dog in the fight aside from running the wire and updating the breakers) said he has been doing lots of these with no complaints so far.

Much like with beer, I can tell you know your stuff...but I wouldn't rule out consulting with an electrician. Aside from the 36kw model (which requires 300 Amp service from the curb-a no go for me), our electrician was confident he could make any of those models in the 200 Amp range work with a sub-panel. This is all coming from a guy in FL...so we automatically have the warmer incoming water (which does affect the end output/product).

 

[Dland]

One problem with on demand, like any other "just in time" solution, you're SOL immediately on system failure, even if burnt micro chip.

I'm happy adopt these efficient new solutions, but would and do keep an "analog" back up. Oil fired boiler & hot water, gas stove & dryer, wood stove of capacity to heat house, diesel gen sets(& all that #2 in the heating oil tank to run them.) Would love to add heat pumps and solar to that, but would not gut old infrastructure.

Maybe we should try to be not so complacent, keep abreast of maintenance of old known systems, while at the same time looking to adopt systems that will hopefully lead us to the future.

 

[Kent88]

Hey what about something like this?

 

[burntchef]

Heat pump water heaters in the house REMOVE btu's from living space in winter. No one ever includes the recovery of living space btu's in the calc's for the water heaters operation. No btu consumption is free.
I went from domestic hot water via a oil fired boiler for baseboard, to geothermal with on demand propane hot water. I am very happy.
Eric

 

[IslandLizard]

Heat pump water heaters in the house REMOVE btu's from living space in winter. No one ever includes the recovery of living space btu's in the calc's for the water heaters operation. No btu consumption is free.

Excellent observation!
I was thinking about that when walking the dog last night, and again this morning.

50,000 BTUs into the hot water tank is 50,000 BTUs removed from a heated home interior. Helps the AC with cooling, but counterproductive when heating. Maybe feed outside air to the "intake" when weather isn't extremely cold, say above 30F.

 

[IslandLizard]

Hey what about something like this?

Interesting! A solid green(er) solution for the near future. Much better than an all-in-one indoor heat pump unit.

Price is kinda high ($3900) while transportation and installation may be a bit tricky. The outside piping needs freezing protection in applicable areas.

 

[rkhanso]

My son is a plumber and he's not a fan of the tankless water heaters. His experience is they're high maintenance, not cheap initially, and usually rated "optimistically" for how many faucets they can supply at the same time.
The standard-type water heater has been around for so long because they work well. Size it right, know your water hardness and do basic draining/cleaning/tuning based on that and usage.
But based on what's important to you (efficiency, size, recovery, etc) - research is your friend.

 

[twd000]

Heat pump water heaters in the house REMOVE btu's from living space in winter. No one ever includes the recovery of living space btu's in the calc's for the water heaters operation. No btu consumption is free.
I went from domestic hot water via a oil fired boiler for baseboard, to geothermal with on demand propane hot water. I am very happy.
Eric

there are two sides to that coin. Yes, the HPWH removes heat from the living space in winter, but on the flip side it cools and dehumidifies the basement during the summer. You may recoup the savings by not having to run a standalone electric dehumidifier all summer

 

[Kent88]

Interesting! A solid green(er) solution for the near future. Much better than an all-in-one indoor heat pump unit.

Price is kinda high ($3900) while transportation and installation may be a bit tricky. The outside piping needs freezing protection in applicable areas.

You should go for it.

I think LG has similar tech, thought I doubt it would be much (if any) cheaper, but I don't know if you can get it sized for just the water heater. It's supposed to replace the boiler as well, if I'm understanding this correctly. Their site has me in something of a recursive loop of links.

 

[Horseflesh]

My traditional natural gas fired 50 gal tank is on its way out so I have been studying this too.

I will probably replace it with the same kind of unit. My reasoning is that tankless and other more high efficiency units are expensive enough that payback is not a guarantee, plus the more complex units have a higher likelihood of needing a repair.

Tankless needs electricity, too. I assume a high efficiency/power vent tank does also. When we have a power outage, not having to worry about hot water is nice. (I do have a generator, but I’m not going to bother to hook it up unless the outage hits a half day or so.)

A boring 50 gal tank is the devil I know and will probably give me another 10 trouble free years.

 

[AJinJacksonville]

My traditional natural gas fired 50 gal tank is on its way out so I have been studying this too.

I will probably replace it with the same kind of unit. My reasoning is that tankless and other more high efficiency units are expensive enough that payback is not a guarantee, plus the more complex units have a higher likelihood of needing a repair.

Tankless needs electricity, too. I assume a high efficiency/power vent tank does also. When we have a power outage, not having to worry about hot water is nice. (I do have a generator, but I’m not going to bother to hook it up unless the outage hits a half day or so.)

A boring 50 gal tank is the devil I know and will probably give me another 10 trouble free years.

I wouldn't say it's the devil...haha...but it is certainly headed down that road it would appear. Luckily, we are in a spot where the power is usually not off for too long during outages. We do not have gas appliances/supply, so if the power went off for a long amount of time (ie. following a hurricane), we would run out of hot water supply from the tanked unit at some point anyway. So I do not really take that into consideration. If the power is out so long that we start stinking and need showers...we will take cold showers...haha.

We have a tanked unit installed in our attic that short-circuited and almost caught our house on fire, and have had a tanked unit that failed and pissed 50 gallons all over our wood floors (and that's with preventive maintenance).

I will definitely keep you all posted how the electric tankless works for us. It has been a thing in Europe for decades now...so I will cross my fingers. Also, for anyone considering it, the electric tankless/on-demand unit I am installing for a 2700sq house comes out to about $1000 (for the unit itself plus a pre-filter for our hard north Florida water) for the initial up-front cost. It only consumes electricity when it is providing hot water.

 

[IslandLizard]

You should go for it.

I think LG has similar tech, thought I doubt it would be much (if any) cheaper, but I don't know if you can get it sized for just the water heater. It's supposed to replace the boiler as well, if I'm understanding this correctly. Their site has me in something of a recursive loop of links.

Sadly, it's just a heat pump based domestic hot water heater with a separate storage tank.

I understand it was designed so it can be installed by a regular plumber or DIY, without hiring a refrigeration technician, but the tradeoff is risk of freezing due to using water as the transfer fluid between the (outdoor) heat pump unit and the (indoor) storage tank. That's a real limitation, IMO, except for those in the south where temps don't drop anywhere near 32F. I wonder if glycol can be used instead of water for the transfer, but didn't see it mentioned anywhere.

I think it's relatively expensive at $4k. We paid (only) twice that amount 10 years ago when we had a new whole house heat pump/AC unit installed, consisting of the outdoor compressor console, a new air handler and evaporator, accessory heating coils, including all labor and parts to hook it up to the existing duct work. Would have really been nice if it could also provide hot water, it's not that far a fetch, for the ultimate homerun.
I did pour the 4x5' concrete slab for it and laid the main wiring.

 

[Kent88]

I completely get that the price is absurd, and I was being silly there.

Although you have me confused now. The way I understood it, the SanC02 uses C02 as the heat transfer medium going between the outdoor unit and the indoor storage tank. I don't think that water is pumped from the house back outside to get warmed up and then pumped back inside to the storage tank. This tech is advertised as working down to -20°F weather in Canada, unless I am mistaken.

 

[IslandLizard]

I completely get that the price is absurd, and I was being silly there.

Although you have me confused now. The way I understood it, the SanC02 uses C02 as the heat transfer medium going between the outdoor unit and the indoor storage tank. I don't think that water is pumped from the house back outside to get warmed up and then pumped back inside to the storage tank. This tech is advertised as working down to -20°F weather in Canada, unless I am mistaken.

I hoped it was a tongue in cheek endorsement.

The liquid CO2 had me intrigued as well!
Out of curiosity, I read the installation manual up to page 17 and gave up once I realized the convolution trying to keep the water loop from freezing.

From what I gather, liquid CO2 is used in the condenser, that's why it will work down to -20F. The CO2 goes through the 1st heat exchanger inside the (outside) compressor unit, that heats a water loop (up to 50'!) to the storage tank. That water loop heats the domestic water in the storage tank through a 2nd heat exchanger.

Unless I totally misread and glycol can be used, the heat exchanger loop using water is a crazy weak link for something that's used outdoors. Terrible engineering or a sick joke?