Water chemistry questions

[eval]

Hi,

I'm quite new to brewing and after my last batch I decided to get a water report for our municipal water and start reading up some on brewing water chemistry.

These are the numbers I got when requesting information about the water:

pH      8.1 - 8.2
dH      2.8
Alkalinity (Bicarbonate, HCO3)          45 mg/l
Calcium (Ca)                            18 mg/l
Magnesium (Mg)                          1.5 mg/l
Chloride (Cl)                           1.5 mg/l
Sulfate (SO4)                           17 mg/l
Sodium (Na)                             1.8 mg/l

In the water primer (from this forum) "soft" water is defined as water that has alkalinity less than 35 (ppm as CaCO3). Since I only got HCO3 in my report I found a formula in Palmers book for converting HCO3 to alkalinity as CaCO3 ppm. He writes that you should divide the HCO3 with 61 and multiply by 50 to get the alkalinity as CaCO3:

(45/61)*50 = 36.9 (rounded to one decimal)

Would this water be good without diluting it with RO water?

I have only brewed american pale ales and IPAs so far and my next batch will be a quite hop forward american pale ale. If I understand the primer correctly the only recommendation for that style would be 1 tsp calcium chloride dihydrate and 2% acidulated malt. If I input those numbers in the EZ Water spreadsheet along with the grainbill for my next brew I get the pH estimation in the correct range for mashing. The spreadsheet does however list my SO4 content as too low (17 and the recommended range is 50-350). Adding gypsum would help me raise the SO4 content. If I understand things correctly it might also help to accentuate the hop bitterness. Would it be a good idea to do that?

I also see that my Mg is quite low. Should I just leave it that way or do you think that I would benefit from a tiny addition of Epsom salt?

The Calcium Chloride I ordered came in form of flakes and it does not say that it is dihydrate. It only states 77-80% on the label. I will probably use a scale to measure around 4g instead of using a teaspoon. Should I increase the amount slightly since it is 77-80%?

Any other recommendations for my water?

I have ordered a pH meter and I'm hoping that it will get here in time for my
next brew

Thanks!

 

[ajdelange]

Your water certainly qualifies as soft. The alkalinity is a bit trickier. I assume you live in Germany as the hardness has been reported dh. I assume that 'alkalinity (bicarbonate)' means they measure the alkalinity and multiply by the equivalent weight of bicarbonate (61). To convert that to the 'as carbonate' that we commonly use in the US you would divide the 'as bicarbonate' number by 61 and then multiply by 50 which is just what the Palmer formula tells you to do.

You are, if my surmise is correct, slightly over the borderline but by so little I don't think it matters. You could always dilute with some RO water if you wanted to be sure about this.

Having a material that is declared to be 77-80% CaCl2 is reasonably close to having the dihydrate on which the recommendations are based. Again, I think you are close enough.

It is actually very nice water in the sense that it is so pure. Just a little alkalinity really.

 

[GotPushrods]

I also see that my Mg is quite low. Should I just leave it that way or do you think that I would benefit from a tiny addition of Epsom salt?

A Mg concentration of 0 mg/L is perfectly acceptable for any beer style.

The ranges you are used to reading are likely taken from averages of historic water profiles, not what is desirable in brewing liquor. Malt already contains plenty of Mg for the yeast.

Some people will suggest a little extra might be desirable in an IPA, but this is one of those where, unless you're 110% sure you like it, don't do it. Especially not at first.

 

[rlmiller10]

Not knowing your grain bill I can't be certain, but with the rather high pH of the water just watch the pH of your sparge water specifically, for beers that are mostly base grain such as IPA or a lager. I would run the grain bill and water numbers through Bru'n water spreadsheet.

On the other hand you have very little residual alkalinity so might have to worry the other way (too low of mash pH) for beers with a lot of roasted malt.

But the happy part is you have great water to start from and you can modify to taste.

I just finished reading "Water A Comprehensive Guide for Brewers". It is a little (OK quite a bit) heavy of a read but if you have a solid chemistry background it is understandable. I recommend it if you really want to understand water.

 

[ajdelange]

The pH of the water really has little to do with it (within reason). At his pH of 8.15 (average) the proton deficit of the water WRT pH 6 (the usually stated upper limit desirable in a sparge) is 0.54 mEq/L. Were his incoming water pH 7 (with the same alkalinity) that would change to 0.49 i.e. not by much. I don't think he needs to worry about acidifying sparge water at these levels.

 

[eval]

Your water certainly qualifies as soft. The alkalinity is a bit trickier. I assume you live in Germany as the hardness has been reported dh. I assume that 'alkalinity (bicarbonate)' means they measure the alkalinity and multiply by the equivalent weight of bicarbonate (61). To convert that to the 'as carbonate' that we commonly use in the US you would divide the 'as bicarbonate' number by 61 and then multiply by 50 which is just what the Palmer formula tells you to do.

You are, if my surmise is correct, slightly over the borderline but by so little I don't think it matters. You could always dilute with some RO water if you wanted to be sure about this.

Having a material that is declared to be 77-80% CaCl2 is reasonably close to having the dihydrate on which the recommendations are based. Again, I think you are close enough.

It is actually very nice water in the sense that it is so pure. Just a little alkalinity really.

Thanks for the quick answer! I actually live in Sweden, but the company that is in charge of our water still lists the dH on their web page. I will use all tap water during my next brews to see if I notice any improvements with the added CaCl2 and acidulated malt to get the pH down. I really don't know if its possible to buy a large jug of RO water in our stores here. Our whole country has good drinking water and people probably at most by a small bottle regular still water from time to time.

 

[eval]

A Mg concentration of 0 mg/L is perfectly acceptable for any beer style.

The ranges you are used to reading are likely taken from averages of historic water profiles, not what is desirable in brewing liquor. Malt already contains plenty of Mg for the yeast.

Some people will suggest a little extra might be desirable in an IPA, but this is one of those where, unless you're 110% sure you like it, don't do it. Especially not at first.

Thank you. I will just leave it as is for now

 

[eval]

Not knowing your grain bill I can't be certain, but with the rather high pH of the water just watch the pH of your sparge water specifically, for beers that are mostly base grain such as IPA or a lager. I would run the grain bill and water numbers through Bru'n water spreadsheet.

On the other hand you have very little residual alkalinity so might have to worry the other way (too low of mash pH) for beers with a lot of roasted malt.

But the happy part is you have great water to start from and you can modify to taste.

I just finished reading "Water A Comprehensive Guide for Brewers". It is a little (OK quite a bit) heavy of a read but if you have a solid chemistry background it is understandable. I recommend it if you really want to understand water.

Thanks for suggesting the book. I haven't studied that much chemistry yet, but nothing is impossible to learn

 

[eval]

Any suggestions about (with my water) adding gypsum for american pale ales and IPAs? I know its probably a personal preference, but I'm still interested in hearing other peoples opinions.

 

[abrix]

I personally appreciate some gypsum in my APAs/IPAs, and I think the guideline of staying under 350ppm is pretty reasonable. You can add some or all of your gypsum to the kettle if you don't want to screw up your mash pH.

 

[zoyar]

Consider the chloride to sulfate ratio as well as total calcium. I think you want to be in the neighborhood of 3:1 sulfate to chloride for a hoppy beer. And calcium should be north of 50ppm for healthy fermentation. So you may want to add calcium sulfate (gypsum) and calcium chloride in the right amounts to achieve both goals.

 

[ajdelange]

It is fine to calculate and note chloride to sulfate ratio but do not use it as a design or control parameter. These two ions have entirely separate effects and you can easily be misled into thinking that if you 300 mg/L beer is too harsh you can fix that by increasing the chloride to 600 mg/L. Use common sense. Beers made w/ 1 mg/L each chloride and sulfate will not be like beers made with 100 mg/L of each or 300 mg/L of each even though all have the same ratio.

You should make a beer with low chloride and sulfate or buy a mega beer like Bud and experiment adding various amount of sulfate and chloride. This will teach you what the effects of these ions are and should quickly convince you that setting a particular ratio is not a way to go.

 

[zoyar]

Interesting perspective. No doubt that common sense should prevail. Don't go crazy adding a massive amounts of salts. That said, John Palmer and others highlight the importance of the chloride to sulfate ratio in designing water to match the beer style. In my experience, it makes a big difference.

 

[Matteo57]

In regards to a water report... How would I go about getting one? I have gone onto my city's website and downloaded the general city's water report, but I've read this really isn't a great representation of what my water actually is due to water variables changing often and sources of water changing as well. Is this correct?
Can anyone help me with this?

 

[mchrispen]

Do a search here or on Google for Ward Brewer's Report. It seems to be the standard.

You might find a local facility/lab that can also do one.

Often, if you can get a hold of a chemist at your water supply - he can provide the specific data. But keep in mind, as you surmise, that muni water will occasionally be affected by sanitation regimen and seasonal issues.

 

[ajdelange]

IThat said, John Palmer and others highlight the importance of the chloride to sulfate ratio in designing water to match the beer style. In my experience, it makes a big difference.

You should read pp149-150 in the new Water book. Many of the same points I made above are touched on. The whole notion of chloride/sulfate ratio is based on a single sentence in the second edition of Handbook of Brewing which said that in one series of tests on a particular kind of beer panel preference seemed more closely correlated to the ratio that the amounts of either of the two separate salts. Home brewers, as they so often do, thought they had a straw they could grasp and so the idea of chloride/sulfate as a design parameter was born.

Now in looking at chloride and sulfate ion concentrations you have two degrees of freedom. If I tell you the chloride and sulfate ratio and either the chloride or the sulfate (two degrees of freedom) you can calculate the other so the ratio is valid in that sense but the aceptable ratio changes dramatically with the kind of beer being brewed. In a continental lager, even a highly hopped one, for example, the proper ratio is infinite i.e. no sulfate is desirable and for most beers it should be high with the exception of some British ales where lots of sulfate is desirable. But the amount of sulfate should not be determined by calculating from some ratio, it should be determined by the amount that makes the beer best by what ever your criterion of goodness is. The same is true for chloride. Use the amount that produces the best beer. Let the ratio fall where it may.

 

[eval]

Thanks everyone that has replied and helped me answer my questions. I have now entered all my water data in the EZ Water spreadsheet and added the grain bill for my next brew (the Zombie Dust clone from the recipe forum).

I decided to go with something fairly close to what the primer recommends as a beginning. However, I will add a tiny bit of gypsum as well and substitute the acidulated malt with lactic acid. I tweaked my additions in the spread sheet and aimed for a 5.5 room temp mash pH. Would that be a good value to aim at? I do not know if I will get the pH meter I ordered before brewing next weekend.

The total amount of water I will need for my 20 liter (approx 5.3 gallons) batch is 31 liter. I will not dilute it with any RO water when brewing this batch. This will be my starting water:

HCO3 - 45 mg/l
Calcium (Ca) - 18 mg/l
Magnesium (Mg) - 1.5 mg/l
Chloride (Cl) - 1.5 mg/l
Sulfate (SO4) - 17 mg/l
Sodium (Na) - 1.8 mg/l


If I add a total of 3.4 grams of CaCl2 and 2.8 grams of CaSO4 (gypsum) I would get (according to EZ water):

Ca - 68
Cl - 54
SO4 - 67

Does this seem reasonable for an APA when I am treating my water for the first time? I think I might try to add extra gypsum to a beer when it is ready to see if I like it. Right now I have no idea and I figured it would be best to keep the SO4 fairly low.

According to the spreadsheet I would need 1.3 ml lactic acid (80%) to get my room temp mash pH to 5.5. That would be slightly less acid than what I would get from 2% acidulated malt (as recommended by the primer) to my grain bill (100g since I have a grain bill of almost exactly 5 kg). If brewing without a pH meter would it be better to go with 1.3ml than almost 2.5ml which would be about the same amount of acid as in 100g acidulated malt? 2.5ml lactic acid (or 100g acidulated malt) would get me to 5.41 according to the estimation from the spread sheet.