Water chemistry Primer questions/advice

[ajdelange]

What does a negative RA mean?

RA = alkalinity - (calcium_hardness + magnesium_hardness/2)/3.5

It is the alkalinity which is not "neutralized" by hydrogen ions released when calcium (and, to a lesser extent magnesium) reacts with malt phosphate. Distilled water has no alkalinity (well, it does actually have a wee bit but that's a technicality arising out of how it is defined and measured) so if you add even a small amount of calcium chloride or calcium sulfate these could react with malt phosphate to produce hydrogen ions which could neutralize more bicarbonate than is present. Thus, the RA is < 0.

 

[Ben_Persitz]

RA = alkalinity - (calcium_hardness + magnesium_hardness/2)/3.5

It is the alkalinity which is not "neutralized" by hydrogen ions released when calcium (and, to a lesser extent magnesium) reacts with malt phosphate. Distilled water has no alkalinity (well, it does actually have a wee bit but that's a technicality arising out of how it is defined and measured) so if you add even a small amount of calcium chloride or calcium sulfate these could react with malt phosphate to produce hydrogen ions which could neutralize more bicarbonate than is present. Thus, the RA is < 0.

So do my numbers look okay in my posts above? My final water profile is this: calcium level is right around 100. Chloride and sulfate both around 80. Magnesium is below 5. Sodium is below 10. RA is negative and effective hardness is 68.

 

[funkswing]

ajdelange - that's what I assumed. But...

which could neutralize more bicarbonate than is present.

Doesn't make sense, because if the HCO3 isn't present, then it isn't going to be neutralized. So a -RA is bogus in application. It means that your mash pH is going to drop, yes (because of H+ going into solution), but negative alkalinity is not something that actually exists. That's why I asked.


Ben_Persitz - you are prolly doing everything right with the spreadsheet (but its a spreadsheet; use it as a guideline. Its not a mechanistic aqueous speciation model).

Looking at your water data, I wouldn't even dilute with distilled water. But I guess your hardness is a bit high.

Just brew it the way you want to brew it. Then post back here with your results. Your salt additions aren't going to ruin the pale ale. But we would all love to hear your results.

 

[Ben_Persitz]

ajdelange - that's what I assumed. But...


Doesn't make sense, because if the HCO3 isn't present, then it isn't going to be neutralized. So a -RA is bogus in application. It means that your mash pH is going to drop, yes (because of H+ going into solution), but negative alkalinity is not something that actually exists. That's why I asked.


Ben_Persitz - you are prolly doing everything right with the spreadsheet (but its a spreadsheet; use it as a guideline. Its not a mechanistic aqueous speciation model).

Looking at your water data, I wouldn't even dilute with distilled water. But I guess your hardness is a bit high.

Just brew it the way you want to brew it. Then post back here with your results. Your salt additions aren't going to ruin the pale ale. But we would all love to hear your results.

It'll be awhile, but will do!

 

[funkswing]

Please take your time. Remember, "Tasty, not hasty" (copyright 2010)

 

[ajdelange]

Doesn't make sense, because if the HCO3 isn't present, then it isn't going to be neutralized. So a -RA is bogus in application. It means that your mash pH is going to drop, yes (because of H+ going into solution),...

Neutralize in this context is not the same as in the usual meaning (that's why I put it in quotes) but it is similar. In the usual meaning, to neutralize means to add enough acid or base to a solution to bring it's pH to the point where the solvent is dissociated to the point where there are equal numbers of its cations and anions in solution i.e. 7 for water at 25 °C. In the context of RA "neutralize" means to add as much acid or base to a mash made with the water in question as is necessary to bring its pH to the pH of a mash with the same grist but doughed in with distilled water. If a water contains a lot of bicarbonate but little calcium or magnesium it will take acid to do this and we call the RA positive. If the water contains a lot of calcium and/or magnesium it will take base to get to the pH of a distilled water mash - not that we would want to do that but if we did, that's what we would have to do. Addition of base is the same as the subtraction of acid. Each OH- added combines with an H+ to form water or, if HCO3- is used as the base, to form H2CO3 (a small adjustment is needed for the effects of pH shift) and so we call the RA negative if the mash pH with the water in question is less than the DI water mash pH. It is perfectly valid to have water with negative RA and the best example of water that does is the water of Burton on Trent but Dortmund, Edinburgh and Vienna (according to commonly available water reports for those cities) also do. There is a chart at http://www.pbase.com/agamid/image/57446374 that plots several well known brewing cities by effective hardness vs. alkalinity. Lines of constant RA are drawn on this chart from which one can determine the RA associated with any combination of effective hardness and alkalinity.

RA is, of course, ultimately a model and a model is valid if it allows us to predict something. RA is validated because it predicts, at least approximately, the pH of a base malt mash and it does this equally well when RA is negative as it does when it is positive. If it didn't, it would not represent a valid model and we wouldn't be talking about it.

but negative alkalinity is not something that actually exists. That's why I asked.

I'm sure you meant to say that negative residual alkalinity doesn't exist but just in case you did mean alkalinity I'll point out that it is possible to have negative alkalinity for the same reason that it is possible to have negative RA. Alkalinity is defined as the amount of acid that must be added to a sample to lower its pH to some agreed upon pH. Unfortunately, there is more than one agreement out there so in brewing I use 4.3 irrespective of the water's composition. The other approach is to titrate until the number of hydrogen ions is equivalent to bicarbonate. Using 4.3 as the titration end point it should be clear that any sample with pH > 4.3 at the outset will require the addition of acid to lower the pH to 4.3. Such samples have positive alkalinity. But any sample with an initial pH < 4.3 (don't brew with such water!) would require the addition of base to raise the pH to 4.3 and such a sample would be said to have a negative alkalinity. You will never see negative alkalinity (water chemists would titrate with base to pH 7 and call the result acidity) but in terms of being able to calculate the actual sample chemistry of a carbo only system, a negative alkalinity or a positive acidity are equally informative.

Maybe another way to look at it is in terms of your bank balance which can be (but we hope is not) negative. A positive bank balance is the amount of money you can take out to bring the balance to 0. A negative balance is the amount of money you have to put in to avoid a nasty call from the bank manager. No, there are no dollars in the account when the balance is negative but you certainly had better not ignore a negative balance on this basis.

 

[funkswing]

ajdelange - I will read your post later (too busy), but thanks for taking the time to explain. So, "RA" is a brewing "chemistry" term and not a general chemistry theory?

That's cool, it just didn't make sense for me in theory. Mathematical of course it does, but math isn't theory or reality, its a tool.

 

[remilard]

Yes, the term is due to Kolbach.

The paper where Kolbach introduced RA is available for download on AJ's website.

 

[erockomania]

Can anyone answer this question? As the poster mentioned, it would be extremely helpful to those of us that aren't into the chemistry.

Is it impossible to answer appropriately or something? All we need is a baseline to work from and a list to cover most basic styles.

The IKEA reference is perfect

Ok I've re-read that, still not groking it 100%, but here's a stab at another way of listing itL:

Pilsner or soft water styles: 1/2 tsp calcium chloride, 3% sauermalt
American Pale Ale: 1 tsp calcium chloride, 1 tsp gypsum, 2% sauermalt
British Pale Ale: 2 tsp calcium chloride, 1 tsp gypsum, 2% sauermalt
Hoppy/Strong British Ale: 4 tsp calcium chloride, 2 tsp gypsum, 2% sauermalt
Porter or Stout: 1 tsp calcium chloride (no sauermalt)
Cascadian Dark Ale (hoppy): 1 tsp calcium chloride, 1 tsp gypsum (no sauermalt)

Are these right? What about Hefe's, do they fall into the soft water style?

What about: Wits, Belgians, or Irish Red's where do they fall?

A listing of all the BJCP styles and the adjustments needed to RO water to get a proper baseline would really be helpful to a lot of folks. Water chemistry is (to me anyway) by far the most complex part of brewing I've had to deal with.

 

[erockomania]

Thanks for the info!

Regarding the learning aspect... I learn much easier when I have the basics laid out... At least when I start out. It will give me and a lot of other folks a great foundation to start experimenting from.

I would personally be happy with with a short list, maybe 'ipa, light ale, porter and hefe'. I/we are not asking for a final answer on this... Just a starting point so we don't make 10 'dumpers' right of the bat.

It would not be impossible to provide a list of additions for each entry in the BJCP style guidelines but if someone were to do that

1. There would be conflicts because, for example, the Belgian Abbey beers are made with water ranging from very soft to very hard. Weizens are brewed all over Germany and Austria with water which is quite diverse.

2. You wouldn't learn anything if someone just laid it out for you

3. Within a given style there can be a fair amount of variation.

4. What suits your palate within a given style may not suit mine.

The guidelines were never intended to replace a cookbook nor to cover every situation. As they make quite clear they represent a starting point. You must tweak the recommendations until you are happy with the result.

If the problem is not understanding what to do with a Weizen, for example, because it is not specifically mentioned in the sticky you might try the following approach. Go to http://www.pbase.com/agamid/image/57446374 and find a city where Weizen is brewed. Munich is an obvious choice but so is Vienna and they probably brew it around Dortmund and Köln too. Identify the style that is in the sticky that is brewed in one of those cities. In this case, most are lager cities (clearly excepting Köln). Start out with the lager profile. You should also research the beer you are brewing. Though many of the AHA monographs are short on water information (in Warner's Weizen for example it isn't even mentioned). A great source is Ray Daniels "Designing Great Beers" (I think it is). And of course you can also garner information by posting questions like "I'm contemplating brewing a Weizen. How do you all treat your water for this style?" to forums like this one.

 

[erockomania]

Dude, you rock. I was unsure where a few styles fell in the op. Thank you!

Hefeweizen: Baseline

Baseline: Add 1 tsp of calcium chloride dihydrate (what your LHBS sells) to each 5 gallons of water treated. Add 2% sauermalz to the grist.

Deviate from the baseline as follows:


Hefeweizen: For soft water beers (i.e Pils, Helles). Use half the baseline amount of calcium chloride and increase the sauermalz to 3% (you can make great Hefe with soft water too).

Porter: For beers that use roast malt (Stout, porter): Skip the sauermalz.

Light Ale: For British beers: Add 1 tsp gypsum as well as 1 tsp calcium chloride

IPA: For very minerally beers (Export, Burton ale): Double the calcium chloride and the gypsum.



If you follow just the baseline without any of the deviations you won't make a 'dumper'. That's the whole idea behind the primer. Should get you a decent beer whatever the style.

 

[Hermit]

It was asked earlier if anyone has tried this yet. I guess other than AJ that is.

Just drinking my first brew using these guide lines now. Let me start with my first batch of the brewing season. My basement was just getting cold enough that I could brew some low gravity beers and keep them below 70F during fermentation. I brewed Orfy's mild. It has always been well received. I made one change to what I had done before. I decided after reading here that since it was a 'dark beer' that I wouldn't bother using 3 gallons RO water cut with 2 gallons tap. I can taste a little harshness that wasn't in the previous batches I had brewed. Not a lot, but it is there.

I wanted to try some other styles so my first using just RO with a 1 tsp calcium chloride was a Scottish 70 from "Brewing Classic Styles". (I know I should have done another mild for comparison, but I just wanted to do something else) It was supposed to be a 60 but my efficiency was a 'tad high'. I can live with that I guess. I balanced the hop bitterness to be 'extra malty'. I use first wort hopping so that should add about 10% back to the IBU rating.

I'm pleased with the results. Not a great beer, but it was not meant to be either. Just a very easy drinking beer with no real overt hop bitterness or harshness of any type.

Some of the best food I ever remember having was at a Chinese place where I used to live. First time there I realized the flavor levels were low by most standards but I found the more delicate flavoring interesting and to my more to liking somehow. I find this brew to be kind of along those lines. Easy drinking with nothing negative in the flavor. There is something to be said for that. I'll have to run it past some more discriminating pallets yet but I'm pleased with the results so far.

 

[funkswing]

I use first wort hopping so that should add about 10% back to the IBU rating.

Now that's a fun debate........I personally think you should lower the IBU's by 10-30%, based on IBU "perception" when calculating FWH additions. Opposed to "actual" IBU's in the beer (HPLC analysis of sample).

I wanted to try some other styles so my first using just RO with a 1 tsp calcium chloride

There's your problem right there. DOn't use 100% RO water with just a small dose of CaCl2. The mineral profile for your beer is going to be waaaaaay off (not enough minerals) from what it should be (and way off from any beer that is brewed).

The original post is about diluting with RO water IF your tap water is hard. If you have soft city water then you don't have to use RO water at all, and you can add salts/minerals to boost them for a desired effect (like increasing sulfates to increase bitterness perception, or increasing chlorides to accentuate the malt character).

 

[Hermit]

Now that's a fun debate........I personally think you should lower the IBU's by 10-30%, based on IBU "perception" when calculating FWH additions. Opposed to "actual" IBU's in the beer (HPLC analysis of sample).


There's your problem right there. DOn't use 100% RO water with just a small dose of CaCl2. The mineral profile for your beer is going to be waaaaaay off (not enough minerals) from what it should be (and way off from any beer that is brewed).

The original post is about diluting with RO water IF your tap water is hard. If you have soft city water then you don't have to use RO water at all, and you can add salts/minerals to boost them for a desired effect (like increasing sulfates to increase bitterness perception, or increasing chlorides to accentuate the malt character).

I like the beer. So exactly what problem are you talking about?

From the original post:

The following recommendations apply to “soft” water. Here we will define soft as meaning RO or distilled water or any water whose lab report indicates alkalinity less than 35 (ppm as CaCO3 – all other numbers to follow mg/L), sulfate less than 20 (as sulfate – Ward Labs reports as sulfur so multiply the SO4-S number by 3 to get as sulfate), chloride less than 20, sodium less than 20, calcium less than 20 and magnesium less than 20. If your water has numbers higher than these, dilute it with RO or DI water.

 

[funkswing]

So exactly what problem are you talking about?

Not a great beer

using just RO with a 1 tsp calcium chloride

Can't you see where I thought you were using 100% RO water? Then you said the beer wasn't great and tried to compare it to Chinese food. That was the problem, or so I thought.

But the extremely large text proves that I was wrong and that you need no help/advice on water chemistry for brewing. We all know why you call yourself Hermit now, thanks.

 

[Hermit]

I'm pleased with the results. Not a great beer, but it was not meant to be either. Just a very easy drinking beer with no real overt hop bitterness or harshness of any type.

Then you said the beer wasn't great

I'm not given to superlatives like some/most on this forum. I've literally seen people saying things like, "This is a great beer, it will be my new house beer" minutes after someone posted a recipe. No way they went grain to glass in under an hour and have any real knowledge of what the beer tastes like.

 

[Hermit]

The sticky doesn't say "for lager add CaCl2 to the softest water you can get" because I'm not ready to conclude that does make the best lager at this point though it looks as if I might come to that conclusion eventually.

I have been using RO water with a bit of tap water (pretty nominal stuff) and reducing the tap water over time. The beers just seem to be getting smoother and smoother and richer in flavor but I have not done 100% RO water yet. I do add enough CaCl2 to get to about 25 ppm or so whatever the dilution.

What "soft" means here seems to depend on the mood my RO system is in. I'm almost serious but I really think it has to do with temperature. My feed water seldom exhibits TDS above 160 and the permeate usually runs 3-4 but can read as low as 0 (I don't believe it - it's instrument noise/quantization) or as high as 5 i.e. pretty soft.

I know from anecdotal data that my reservoir water is fairly hard. It gets softer in the spring when you get high run off, but just like salt levels in the ocean, it gets more concentrated during the summer months. ( I used to do appliance repair. I started to notice in the spring that we would get more calls about leaking washing machines. What was happening is they would over suds and spill out the over flow tube) They don't publish the mineral content, just a once yearly contaminate report. I'm not going to pay for water analysis on a moving target. Like I said above though, I could tell the difference in flavor going from a 3/2 ratio to all tap water. Orfy's mild has a lot of crystal 60 in it. That should cover quite a few sins in the water. The water is pretty flavorless but you could see a blue/green tinge to it in the bath tub when you had a large quantity against a white background. That is what made me decide to go with an RO system since my wife drinks a lot of water.

 

[DungeonBeast]

I have calculated my tap water RA to be about 105. My Calcium is around 40 ppm. When i brew dark beers i don't dilute with RO or add any salts (my mash pH is is usually in range and i have ample Ca. For amber beers, I dilute at 50% RO and increase Ca with CaCl2 in small amounts. For Pale beers, I dilute my mash water 75% for proper pH and add CaCl2 to get my Ca in range... For hoppy beers, I will add some Gypsum to get the So4 in balance. To me, it is more important to add salts when you have to dilute your mash water more than 50%. Im actually glad that my water is hard. It makes it easier to brew all styles IMO.

 

[smizak]

aj or remilard,

What is your opinion on water to be used for a Dortmunder Export?

I'm not a hugely experienced lager brewer, but I have an appreciation of both of your approaches to light lagers, as I'm sensitive to too much sulfate bitterness in those beers.

How much is "too" much mineral content for a Dort? I currently use a modified version of Palmer's spreadsheet and ignore the RA stuff for the most part and just focus on the ion concentration. My water is pretty moderate:

40ppm Ca
24ppm SO4
9ppm Mg
85ppm alkalinity as CO3
10ppm Na
17ppm Cl

I've contemplated adding gypsum and CaCl to get to around 100ppm Ca, SO4 and Cl. My RA according to the sheet is around zero.

This beer is for my brother who loves GLBC's Dortmunder. IMO, it does have a crisp hop character and a minerally, slightly muted malt profile, which may be recipe or water treatment.

 

[ajdelange]

I'm overseas at the moment but here's an old synthesis for Dortmund that I came up with years ago. It is based on a profile which, unlike most, actually electrically balances at reasonable pH. As you can see it is very alkaline and has lots of other mineral content as well. That's why Export tastes almost salty. Export is definitely an exception when it comes to lagers. You can't brew an Export with soft water and have it come out anything like an export. I don't particularly care for that and so have never brewed one.

Given the huge residual alkalinity the brewers of Dortmund must do something to get mash pH into the correct range. They would either have to soften the water or add lots and lots of sauermalz. Given that if I were trying to do an Export I would probably just skip the calcium carbonate addition as it is pointless to go to the trouble to put it in only to take it back out again. Note that the synthesis requires carbon dioxide - that is there to dissolve the chalk and is the only way to properly increase water alkalinity as it is the way nature does it. The facts that the balancing pH for the profile are reasonable and that CO2 is used to dissolve the chalk are responsible for the ability to match this priofile so closely by adding salts (and CO2) to deionized water.


29 October 1997
Page 236
K.11 Dortmund 2
Target City: Dortmund2 Base Water: Deionized
Balancing pH 8.0161 is within acceptable bounds
Net charge (imbalance) at this pH: 0.0000 mEq/L
SALTS ADDED FOR THIS SYNTHESIS:
Sodium Chloride : 51.11 mg/L
Calcium Sulfate Dihydrate : 324.78 mg/L
Calcium Chloride Dihydrate : 143.09 mg/L
Magnesium Sulfate Heptahydrate : 253.53 mg/L
Calcium Carbonate : 338.18 mg/L
Magnesium Carbonate : 0.00 mg/L
Sodium Bicarbonate : 182.31 mg/L
Carbonic Acid : 6.94 mEq/L
COMPARISON OF TARGET AND SYNTHESIS:
Dortmund2
pH : 8.02 8.02
f1 : 0.0178 0.0178
f2 : 0.9744 0.9744
f3 : 0.0078 0.0078
Ionic Strength : 27.7725 27.7750
pfm : 0.0725 0.0725
TARGET SYNTHESIS pRatio Pct Err
Carbonates* : 9.0164 9.0169 mM/L +0.0000 +0.01%
Calcium* : 250.00 250.04 mg/L +0.0001 +0.01%
Carbonic : 9.98 9.98 mg/L +0.0000 +0.01%
Bicarbonate : 536.16 536.19 mg/L +0.0000 +0.01%
Carbonate : 4.22 4.22 mg/K +0.0000 +0.01%
Alkalinity (as CaCO3): 444.65 444.68 mg/L
Chloride* : 100.00 100.01 mg/L +0.0000 +0.01%
Magnesium* : 25.00 25.00 mg/L +0.0000 +0.00%
Sodium* : 70.00 70.00 mg/L +0.0000 +0.00%
Sulfate* : 280.00 280.02 mg/L +0.0000 +0.01%
Nitrate : 0.00 0.00 mg/L
RMS Log Error (Items with *): 0.00003 Corresponding % 0.0079
pHs : 6.48 6.47
Saturated WRT CaCO3? : Yes Yes
Langelier Index : 1.54 1.54 SI < 0 ~ Corrosion; SI > 0 ~ Occlusion
Ryznar Index : 4.93 4.93 RI < 6 ~ Occlusion; RI > 7 ~ Corrosion
pHe : 9.21 9.21
Saturated WRT CO2? : Yes Yes
CO2 Equilibrium Index: 1.20 1.20 EI < 0 ~ Gains CO2; EI > 0 ~ Loses CO2
Residual Alkalinity : 251.73 251.73 mg/L as CaCO3

 

[smizak]

Thanx AJ

Wow. The amount of bicarbonate in that target water is amazing. I just plugged those numbers into my spreadsheet, I'd need to add almost 30 grams of brewing salts to get those concentrations.

I'm less interested in creating a "historic" brewing water than making a beer that is tasty and to-style. I'll probably just go with my approach and compromise between mash ph/RA and authentic ion concentrations. I don't want the beer harsh, but I'd like a little bit of that mineral character so I'll be conservative.

 

[ajdelange]

Keep in mind that just because that profile came labeled "Dortmund" and that it balances electrically (which is noteworthy) doesn't mean that it is indeed anything like Dortmund's actual water no does it tell us anything about how the Dortmund braumeisters might treat it.

 

[smizak]

Agreed. Again, thanks for your input.

 

[optimatored]

AJ,

Alright, so this thread might change what I have been doing... although my beers come out tasting well. I am in the process getting my water in order. I generally use 100-percent distilled and build it up... i posted in the AG section so apologies there, but need some advice. Below is what I plan on doing as for as adjustments.

I followed the EZ_Water SS and used Dublin as my guideline... what I fail to understand is how adding these salts could be detrimental to a beer, if added accordingly. Thank you, please advise!

(For a Coffee/Stout)
Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 4.25 / 3
Dilution Rate: 100%
Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaCO3: 7.9 / 0
CaSO4: 0.3 / 0
CaCl2: 0 / 0
MgSO4: 3.5 / 0
NaHCO3: 3.3 / 0
NaCl: 2.6 / 0
HCL Acid: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid: 0 / 0
Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 201 / 118
Mg: 20 / 12
Na: 120 / 70
Cl: 98 / 57
SO4: 95 / 56
CaCO3: 364 / 213
RA (mash only): 208 (22 to 27 SRM)
Cl to SO4 (total water): 1.03 (Balanced)

 

[Hermit]

what I fail to understand is how adding these salts could be detrimental to a beer, if added accordingly.

Many styles came into being because they were limited by the water available. It doesn't mean the water was optimal, but the brewers did the best they could with what they had available. Indeed as people learned to manipulate the water, they did.

I've been brewing using the minimalistic approach listed in the first post and it has worked well for me. I'm still pretty new to brewing but have decided to simply try and eliminate negatives from my brews. I think I have done well in that regard. I don't like bitterness so the simple Calcium Chloride addition has worked well for me with my RO water. Remember, this was only meant to be a starting point. By all means experiment with differing water make up until you come up with what you feel gives you the optimum beer to your taste. OK, I'm not AJ... but....

 

[optimatored]

Many styles came into being because they were limited by the water available. It doesn't mean the water was optimal, but the brewers did the best they could with what they had available. Indeed as people learned to manipulate the water, they did.

I've been brewing using the minimalistic approach listed in the first post and it has worked well for me. I'm still pretty new to brewing but have decided to simply try and eliminate negatives from my brews. I think I have done well in that regard. I don't like bitterness so the simple Calcium Chloride addition has worked well for me with my RO water. Remember, this was only meant to be a starting point. By all means experiment with differing water make up until you come up with what you feel gives you the optimum beer to your taste. OK, I'm not AJ... but....

I appreciate the input... water chem is not my study... but I am trying to learn.

 

[ajdelange]

The only things that are definitely going to be detrimental are the bicarbonate and carbonate. If the specified amounts were added to 4.25 gal of water it would take about 11.6 mEq/L acid equivalent to 15 mL hardware store strength (28 Be) acid for 4.25 gal to move the water alone to pH 5.4 which is a reasonable mash pH. As it is unlikely that the dark malts would be able to supply this much acid unless inordinate quantities were used mash pH is probably going to be too high. There are several benefits attached to lower pH and these will be lost. As the malts will be unable to supply the necessary acid most of the chalk will not dissolve. Some of this somehow carries over to the beer (even though it is insoluble) and the result is, I am told by those who have tried these huge chalk additions, beers that taste chalky or like alkaselzer.

Note that the alkalinity and RA numbers that you have shown only apply if enough acid (other than carbonic) is supplied to bring the pH of the water plus carbonate mix to 8.3. If that is done the anion of that acid must be accounted for. Using hydrochloric acid for this purpose the chloride ion content would be 272 mg/L.

Dublin water does not have an RA as high as 200.

The bicarbonate and carbonate should be left out of the water but some carbonate should be readily available whenever dark beer is being brewed. Mash pH should be checked with a meter and if it is too low some carbonate (certainly less than 8 grams!) should be added to the mash to bring the pH up to about 5.3 - 5.4. This is the only time at which carbonate should be added to mash or brewing water unless one is trying to do a detailed emulation of a particular water in which case the approximations in the spreadsheet you used render it unsuitable for calculation of the amount to be added. Such emulations are seldom justified and are definitely to be considered "advanced".

Sulfate is highish (though certainly beers with higher sulfate levels have been brewed) and this may be objectionable to some drinkers.

The high level of sodium is something which one could live with if his brewing water source contained such a high level but it is hardly something that one would try to establish unless one were trying to do a beer with a salty profile (e.g. Export).

Of the commonly used salts calcium chloride is the one that is accepted by all as being beneficial. I note there is none of that being used here. The other salts are pretty much neutral. There seems to be a growing school of thought that the softest waters make the best beers. If you are a subscriber to that way of thinking then all the minerals are detrimental in the sense that the water is less soft after their addition that it would be without.

My advice here would be the same as is in the Sticky: Tsp CaCl2, Tsp CaSO4 (if you like hops) check mash pH (don't rely on strips) and add CaCO3 to mash as required to get pH up to around 5.3 if it falls too low. If my experience and that of others is indicative you shouldn't need any CaCO3.

 

[ajdelange]

The only things that are definitely going to be detrimental are the bicarbonate and carbonate. If the specified amounts were added to 4.25 gal of water it would take about 11.6 mEq/L acid equivalent to 15 mL hardware store strength (28 Be) acid for 4.25 gal to move the water alone to pH 5.4 which is a reasonable mash pH. As it is unlikely that the dark malts would be able to supply this much acid unless inordinate quantities were used mash pH is probably going to be too high. There are several benefits attached to lower pH and these will be lost. As the malts will be unable to supply the necessary acid most of the chalk will not dissolve. Some of this somehow carries over to the beer (even though it is insoluble) and the result is, I am told by those who have tried these huge chalk additions, beers that taste chalky or like alkaselzer.

Note that the alkalinity and RA numbers that you have shown only apply if enough acid (other than carbonic) is supplied to bring the pH of the water plus carbonate mix to 8.3. If that is done the anion of that acid must be accounted for. Using hydrochloric acid for this purpose the chloride ion content would be 272 mg/L.

Dublin water does not have an RA as high as 200.

The bicarbonate and carbonate should be left out of the water but some carbonate should be readily available whenever dark beer is being brewed. Mash pH should be checked with a meter and if it is too low some carbonate (certainly less than 8 grams!) should be added to the mash to bring the pH up to about 5.3 - 5.4. This is the only time at which carbonate should be added to mash or brewing water unless one is trying to do a detailed emulation of a particular water in which case the approximations in the spreadsheet you used render it unsuitable for calculation of the amount to be added. Such emulations are seldom justified and are definitely to be considered "advanced".

Sulfate is highish (though certainly beers with higher sulfate levels have been brewed) and this may be objectionable to some drinkers.

The high level of sodium is something which one could live with if his brewing water source contained such a high level but it is hardly something that one would try to establish unless one were trying to do a beer with a salty profile (e.g. Export).

Of the commonly used salts calcium chloride is the one that is accepted by all as being beneficial. I note there is none of that being used here. The other salts are pretty much neutral. There seems to be a growing school of thought that the softest waters make the best beers. If you are a subscriber to that way of thinking then all the minerals are detrimental in the sense that the water is less soft after their addition that it would be without.

 

[optimatored]

The only things that are definitely going to be detrimental are the bicarbonate and carbonate. If the specified amounts were added to 4.25 gal of water it would take about 11.6 mEq/L acid equivalent to 15 mL hardware store strength (28 Be) acid for 4.25 gal to move the water alone to pH 5.4 which is a reasonable mash pH. As it is unlikely that the dark malts would be able to supply this much acid unless inordinate quantities were used mash pH is probably going to be too high. There are several benefits attached to lower pH and these will be lost. As the malts will be unable to supply the necessary acid most of the chalk will not dissolve. Some of this somehow carries over to the beer (even though it is insoluble) and the result is, I am told by those who have tried these huge chalk additions, beers that taste chalky or like alkaselzer.

Note that the alkalinity and RA numbers that you have shown only apply if enough acid (other than carbonic) is supplied to bring the pH of the water plus carbonate mix to 8.3. If that is done the anion of that acid must be accounted for. Using hydrochloric acid for this purpose the chloride ion content would be 272 mg/L.

Dublin water does not have an RA as high as 200.

The bicarbonate and carbonate should be left out of the water but some carbonate should be readily available whenever dark beer is being brewed. Mash pH should be checked with a meter and if it is too low some carbonate (certainly less than 8 grams!) should be added to the mash to bring the pH up to about 5.3 - 5.4. This is the only time at which carbonate should be added to mash or brewing water unless one is trying to do a detailed emulation of a particular water in which case the approximations in the spreadsheet you used render it unsuitable for calculation of the amount to be added. Such emulations are seldom justified and are definitely to be considered "advanced".

Sulfate is highish (though certainly beers with higher sulfate levels have been brewed) and this may be objectionable to some drinkers.

The high level of sodium is something which one could live with if his brewing water source contained such a high level but it is hardly something that one would try to establish unless one were trying to do a beer with a salty profile (e.g. Export).

Of the commonly used salts calcium chloride is the one that is accepted by all as being beneficial. I note there is none of that being used here. The other salts are pretty much neutral. There seems to be a growing school of thought that the softest waters make the best beers. If you are a subscriber to that way of thinking then all the minerals are detrimental in the sense that the water is less soft after their addition that it would be without.

Alright, but if the water I am using has no minerals in in at all (distilled), why would it be detrimental to use CaCO3? I understand that optimal mash pH is at 5.2, so you are saying that based on my water profile this will not happen. So I should totally ignore RA and the spreadsheet? I only have pH strips and a meter is not in the budget... I am also stubborn so I might brew with my profile anyway and let y'all know how it turns out.

 

[ajdelange]

I am saying that no stout has ever been brewed with water as alkaline as that which would result from the addition of this much CaCO3 (except by homebrewers following the same advice you propose to take) or, put another way, none of the well known brewing cities have water that alkaline. If they did no one would locate a brewery there.

From another perspective: if you were to make a mash with totally deionized water it will come to some pH. For a base malt that will be 5.75 - 5.8. With acid malts (dark crystal, roast) it will be lower. In my experiments and brewing I find that 10% roast barley produces something around 5.5 whereas 30% gives me 5.2. If I added chalk to the water mash pH would be appreciably higher and I don't want higher. In fact I want lower in my brewing where I use 10% roast barley but live with 5.5 and the result is a very good (IMO) stout. If I added some chalk to the water in order to be authentic (i.e. to represent Dublin water) the pH would go up but if I added reasonable amounts it would not be by that much - say to 5.6 which would still be OK but inching up. If I added as much as you propose the result would be a pasty, chalky, alkaselzer beer - flat and dull. At least that's what people who have followed programs like the one you are suggesting have reported to me.

You need to understand that the EZ and Palmer spreadsheets do not model carbonate additions correctly. To do so they would have to be appreciably more complicated than they are. IOW the results of the addition you propose will not be Ca = 201 nor alkalinity = 364. If you dump all that chalk into 4.25 gal of water it will not dissolve. If you allow it to settle and come to equilibrium you will wind up with hardness and alkalinity both about 50 ppm and both as CaCO3. This would not be an unreasonable level but would leave most of the chalk on the bottom of the HLT and the question would be "Why did I put it in in the first place?" If you stir it all up and mash with the suspension or add it all to the mash that is when you will realize all the negative effects.

You can certainly be stubborn if you wish and it might be a good learning experience for you. But first you might want to read through some of the posts in this thread focusing on other peoples' experiences.

I understand that the bucks for a pH meter may not be available so soon after Xmas but I strongly encourage brewers to make this investment as soon as they can. If you had a pH meter to hand you would only add chalk to beer if it were really necessary, would only use 5.2 once and would be secure in the knowledge that mash pH was under control. With meters available for under $100 they are a lot more accessible to homebrewers than they used to be.