Water Build for 59.8 SRM Porter

[ajdelange]

Distilled water has an alkalinity of 2.5 (to pH 4.3). If the water you have has an alkalinity of 10 then it is not very pure having a bicarbonate content of 9 mg/L (assuming there is no other source of alkalinity beyond bicarbonate and hydroxyl ions).

If the 2.5 < alkalinity < 10 you won't need to acidify sparge water as it's buffering capacity is unappreciable compared to the buffering capacity of the mash/wort and pH will not rise above 6 until runoff gravity is very low (beyond the point where it is practical to keep collecting it).

To give you a rough idea as to how much acid is needed to change the pH should you insist on doing so anyway remember that the alkalinity number is the number of ml of normal (1 N) hydrochloric (or any other strong) acid required to move a liter of the water to pH to 4.3 multiplied by 50. Thus for an alkalinity of 10 you would require 10/50 = 0.2 mL of normal acid. Typical hydrochloric acid is approximately 12.4 N so that for 5 gallons of water you would need 19*.2/12.4 = 0.3 mL - not much at all. For DI water you would need 1/4 that much. These additions would bring you to pH 4.3 rather than 6 or 5.8 or something you might consider more suitable for sparge water but again, because of the low buffering capacity, that doesn't really matter.

With phosphoric things are more difficult to compute but as Martin has noted there is a set of formulae at www.wetnewf.org which you can punch into a spreadsheet but then he has already done this for you.

 

[mabrungard]

So I guess the right thing to do here is to send the water(GV Distilled Water) off for testing to see what the alkalinity is of the water. I found a document in a Google search dated 2007 that stated the alkalinity of the same brand I use was 10. If that's the case a few drops of it should do the trick, but that would be based off of assumption.

mabrungard, would you happen to be M. Brungard that Strong refers to as having discussions with about the technical sides of brewing water?

How many M. Brungard's do you think there are in the world? ;-)

Especially ones that deal with beer! Yes, we have had discussions.

 

[bootney]

You would be the first Brungard I have ever had a discussion with. I must say it's an honor to have you as well as AJ to assist with this topic.

I did contact the company that produces the distilled water that I use and would like some input as to how to read this sheet.

Looking at alkalinity:

the first column is MCL mg/L and it lists it as "-" (established by EPA/FDA)

second column is RL mg/L it states 5

third column is distilled finished product and it states ND

So when looking at this data I would assume the alkalinity of the water is below 5 mg/L otherwise it would have been reported correct?

The pH for the water in this report was 6.2 just as an FYI.

 

[ajdelange]

The MCL is the "Maximum Contaminant Level" i.e. the most the EPA thinks you should be exposed to.

The RL is the "Reporting Limit" i.e. the level beneath which they do not report the level measured. This is usually related to the limitation of the test method being used.

ND means "Not Detected" above the RL. IOW if the RL is 5 and the measured alkallnity is less than 5 it will be reported as ND. This is reasonable for distilled water which has alkalinity of 2.5 which is less than 5.

 

[bootney]

AJ,

In your opinion, double batch sparging with this water(alkalinity 2.5 and pH 6.2) would not elevate the pH of the mash beyond the suggested maximum pH of 5.8 by the time the runnings hit a gravity of 1.008?

 

[ajdelange]

Probably not but I would check it. If it goes a bit over that's nothing to worry about. A little extra conditioning time will drop any polyphenol haze and you will know to add a pinch of acid the next time you brew this beer.

BTW the pH of 6.2 for your DI water is caused by dissolved atmospheric CO2. As soon as the water is heated that CO2 will be driven off and the pH will start to rise towards 7.

 

[bootney]

Alright guys I did my first batch after starting this thread and here are some results. I ended up brewing the East IPA for big brew. I had 12# of Maris Otter, .24# of Acidulated Malt, 1 and 1/8 TSP Calcium Chloride, and around 5.5 gallons of strike water. The mash pH was 5.47. I then did a double batch sparge of 2 gallons(untreated) for each and the final runnings had a pH of 5.72.

All in all it was a successful brew IMO and the pH readings were all within acceptable ranges. Thanks for all the help guys over the past couple of weeks.

On a side note a fellow club member brewed the porter from the top of this thread and we measured his pH at 5.22 and calcium chloride was the only addition following AJ's sticky. Thanks again guys.

 

[mabrungard]

On a side note a fellow club member brewed the porter from the top of this thread and we measured his pH at 5.22 and calcium chloride was the only addition following AJ's sticky. Thanks again guys.

A mash pH of 5.22 measured at room temperature with a calibrated meter is too low for good beer taste characteristics in my opinion. Bringing that mash pH to 5.3 at the minimimum is a better goal and 5.4 to 5.5 is optimum. This one sounded like a minor alkalinity addition was prudent.

 

[ajdelange]

I'd like to see it a little higher to though 5.2 will probably be OK. Next time add a bit of calcium carbonate (better yet, do this to a test mash as CaCO3 is a bit unpredictable) trying to push up to 5.4. Then compare this one to the one at 5.22. If you like it better, go on up to 5.5 the time after that. It's all about being able to control pH, seeing what pH level gives you the result you like best and then controlling to that level in the future. A pH meter will take you where those who aren't willing to make the small investment just cannot go. IMO it is as valuable as a thermometer.

 

[bootney]

In all honesty I was surprised that the porter pH was as high as it was. We were pleased that it at least hit 5.2 without boosting the alkalinity of the distilled water. Going forward we will be able to make the needed adjustments thanks to the pH meter and your suggestions.

Brun,

Do you prefer to have the pH of all your mashes between 5.4 and 5.5?

 

[mabrungard]

5.4 to 5.5 is fine. In my opinion, mash pH is one of the final things a brewer can toy with in creating certain nuances in their beer. Trending around the low end of the 5.3 to 5.5 'optimum' (per Briggs et al) will enhance the brightness, tartness, and fermentability of the beer. Trending around the high end will enhance the smoothness and body (by slightly reducing fermentability) of the beer.

 

[ajdelange]

In all honesty I was surprised that the porter pH was as high as it was. We were pleased that it at least hit 5.2 without boosting the alkalinity of the distilled water.

I'm a bit surprised it was that low. Can you tell us what was in the grain bill?

 

[bootney]

This was for a 10 gallon batch:

20.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain
3.50 lb Special B Malt (148.0 SRM)
2.25 lb Roasted Barley (300.0 SRM)
1.00 lb Chocolate Malt (412.0 SRM)
0.50 lb Black Barley (500.0 SRM)
0.50 lb Black Malt (550.0 SRM)

 

[ajdelange]

Thanks. Based on that I guess I am not surprised the pH was as low as 5.2. When I make stout I use 10% roast barley and get a nicely (IMO) balanced, chocolatey, roasty beer (and a mash pH of 5.5). In my lab experiments it takes about 3 times that much to get down to 5.2 and that's pretty close to what you have in this recipe (i.e. 28% dark/roast malts). Based on my experiences with stout I would think doubling the roast stuff would lead to a pretty "ashy" beer. Does the melanoidin-maltiness of the special B balance this out. IOW how does the beer turn out?

 

[mabrungard]

Wow, that is a lot of roast and crystal malt. I am curious how that recipe comes out.

Given that you're in Ocala, that beer would probably have been well suited to the local tap water. That would have probably avoided the pH issue for that beer. Using a program like Bru'n Water would have helped decipher the water prior to brewing that malt bill.

 

[Jboggeye]

Quick question for Ajdelange,

I am brewing BCS robust porter, and am using NYC water (very very soft)
I have two options (as I don't have PH meter):

Brew as usual using the primer- ie 1 tsp calcium chloride

or

Keep the dark malts out until last 10 minutes of the mash-


What do you think is best?

 

[mabrungard]

The addition of calcium is still a good idea given the low calcium content of NYC water. Recognize that adding CaCL will further depress your already low mash pH since NYC water also has very low alkalinity. Keeping the dark malts out until the last part of the mash can be a good approach. Crystal malts also depress the mash pH, so if the grist has significant crystal content you could still have pH problems.

You would still be better off adding lime to the water to provide the calcium and alkalinity a robust porter grist would need to keep the pH in line.

 

[Jboggeye]

Lime, huh? I know that you guys don't recommend chalk or baking soda to raise PH, but you would suggest lime...
I have about a pound of crystal malts in the grist, if that changes much.

 

[ajdelange]

Quick question for Ajdelange,

I am brewing BCS robust porter, and am using NYC water (very very soft)
I have two options (as I don't have PH meter):

Brew as usual using the primer- ie 1 tsp calcium chloride

or

Keep the dark malts out until last 10 minutes of the mash-

I'd skip the calcium chloride and just mash with the water you have. If Brooklyn brewing doesn't do anything* to that water when they brew with it you probably don't need to either. But I still encourage experimentation and hope that eventually you will obtain a pH meter.

*This is at the level of a rumor and was posted by someone here or elsewhere recently.

 

[Jboggeye]

Thanks Aj and Mabrungard, I've been reading your posts- everywhere, and a lot of them!
Thanks for all the ready good info you've provided.

Last time I did this recipe, we mashed without any additions, and it was REALLY good. But after maybe 2 months, it felt like the flavors had dulled and "pulled apart" for lack of a better term. I'm hoping that by mashing without the dark malts, and the calcium from the calcium chloride I'll get a little more stability.

 

[bootney]

It's been a couple of months since I've posted to this thread so I thought I'd give an update on my progress with mash pH. I also have yet to taste the Porter (fellow club member brewed it) that this thread was originally started for.

I have come to learn quite a bit over the past few months and have a better understanding of this process thanks to all the help from you guys. My first few attempts using acidulated malt and calcium chloride yielded mash pH's around 4.9. I believe having a 4.9 pH is where most of my batches have been since messing with mineral additions.

I then just switched to calcium chloride and started to get better results. With an IPA I hit 5.17, and ever since that batch my last 3 have had a pH between 5.35 and 5.45. I did a darker Scottish ale compared to the Belgians and IPA's that I usually brew and did add some chalk to the brew and hit 5.4.

So all in all I'm pleased with the results. I brew the same IPA recipe every other month so I'm looking forward to comparing the 5.17 to the other batches. The non carbonated 5.17 had less of a tartness to it compared to my previous attempts. Not sure if that would be something to expect.

Here are a few new questions. I have always used 1/4 tsp of wyeast nutrient for my starters, 1/2 tsp for the boil, and 1/4 tsp a day after high Kräusen. My question does this nutrient impact flavor of the beer?

Second question would be with a pumpkin ale I plan to brew next month, and does pumpkin have any effect on mash pH one way or the other?

 

[Misplaced_Canuck]

I then just switched to calcium chloride and started to get better results. With an IPA I hit 5.17, and ever since that batch my last 3 have had a pH between 5.35 and 5.45. I did a darker Scottish ale compared to the Belgians and IPA's that I usually brew and did add some chalk to the brew and hit 5.4.

So all in all I'm pleased with the results. I brew the same IPA recipe every other month so I'm looking forward to comparing the 5.17 to the other batches. The non carbonated 5.17 had less of a tartness to it compared to my previous attempts. Not sure if that would be something to expect.

Here are a few new questions. I have always used 1/4 tsp of wyeast nutrient for my starters, 1/2 tsp for the boil, and 1/4 tsp a day after high Kräusen. My question does this nutrient impact flavor of the beer?

Second question would be with a pumpkin ale I plan to brew next month, and does pumpkin have any effect on mash pH one way or the other?

I don't think that you'll see much of a difference in between a 5.17 pH mash porter vs 5.4 pH mash porter. The difference is not hugely significant.

I don't believe that a small amount of yeast nutrient would directly affect the beer, but if your pitching rates are changed (if this case, positively/higher), then yes, you would get a change in your beer. Generally speaking, you'd get a better beer and mellower flavors, and possibly a slightly lower finishing gravity.

M_C