Adding baking soda to the kettle to achieve HCO3 target?

[Holden Caulfield]

Brewing a porter, 5 gal batch this weekend, and could use some direction on bicarbonates (HCO3).

First some background - the porter I am brewing is 12% brown malt, 9% crystal 60, and 3% chocolate malt (450L), and the remaining 76% is Maris Otter. I will be brewing this with RO water and will be adding gypsum and CaCl to the mash to achieve about 60ppm calcium. As this recipe does not have a huge amount of roasted malts, I will only be adding 1 gram of baking soda to the mash, which will provide about 50ppm HCO3 in the mash.

Per MashMadeEasy, the predicted PH is 5.5. Bru'n water predicts a much lower PH which I find to be the case when roasted malts are part of the grain bill. I tend to go conservative a try to find an HCO3 level that works ok for both.

My questions:

1. Are bicarbonates (HCO3) important to the flavor profile of the finished beer - mouthfeel and flavor?
2. If they are important, should I target a black balance bicarbonate level, which according to Bru'n water is 140 ppm in the finish beer?
3. As I can't add more baking soda to the mash as it will raise the PH too high, and I don't want to add it to the sparge water as this may lead to tannin extraction, can I just add it to the kettle? About 2.5 grams will get me to about 100 ppm HCO3, and will keep the sodium in the 35 ppm range
4. Black balanced profile says about 65 ppm SO4 and 56 Cl, is this about right for a porter?

Thanks so much.

 

[cire]

1. Bicarbonate will not exist in a properly made beer and therefore should not be part of the flavor profile or mouthfeel.

2. See 1.

3. With the low level of calcium proposed, it is possible pH will remain within bounds. Wort produced at less than pH 4.9 can have low fermentability and raising this in the kettle will not correct the wort.

4. Porter benefits from more chloride than sulfate. A ratio of 3:1 was typical when this beer was popular.

 

[marc1]

1) No
4) That's going to be personal preference. If I were making it I would up the Cl. What you have should be fine, though.

 

[mabrungard]

1. Bicarbonate will not exist in a properly made beer and therefore should not be part of the flavor

While correct with respect to BEER, it’s far from correct for a dark beer mash. It’s disappointing to see such an utterly misleading response.

In proper response to the OPs question, there is never a bicarbonate target, only a mashing pH target. Another important point is that bicarbonate is ONLY added to mashing water and not the sparging water.

 

[marc1]

While correct with respect to BEER, it’s far from correct for a dark beer mash. It’s disappointing to see such an utterly misleading response.

In proper response to the OPs question, there is never a bicarbonate target, only a mashing pH target. Another important point is that bicarbonate is ONLY added to mashing water and not the sparging water.

Yes, 100% I agree that bicarbonate should be used only for targeting mash pH. And that an off mash pH can affect flavor.
My interpretation of the OP's question 1 was if bicarbonate levels should be targeted as flavor ions like Cl and sulfate.
OP made it clear that the additional bicarbonate they wanted to add was not needed in the mash.
It seems like we are all in agreement in saying no, don't add it elsewhere.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

1. Black balanced profile says about 65 ppm SO4 and 56 Cl, is this about right for a porter?

FYI, I brew a Porter recipe that is not far off from yours. It is my one recipe that all the pH software seems to get wrong. I tend to aim for a 5.6 pH in the software and assume I will measure around 5.4. I am not sure if it is something with the Crisp Brown Malt that I am using. Just something to keep an eye out for.

That SO4/Cl seems decent. While I am still tweaking my water profile for this style, my last batches have been SO4:115, Cl: 85, Ratio: 1.35. I tell myself that I want to add a bit more Calcium and that the higher levels of Sulfate and Chloride help add a little "something". I look at a Porter as an easy drinking beer, so something like a 1:1 ratio or a little more Sulfate (like mine) is where I would go (NOT 1:3). This lines up with the recommendations from the book "Water"...and my last batch of English Porter won a gold medal.

 

[cire]

While correct with respect to BEER, it’s far from correct for a dark beer mash. It’s disappointing to see such an utterly misleading response.

In proper response to the OPs question, there is never a bicarbonate target, only a mashing pH target. Another important point is that bicarbonate is ONLY added to mashing water and not the sparging water.

I disagree in every respect. It is misleading only to readers believing wort and beer to be the same. After a mash will be wort, after fermentation will be beer. The former process has a pH end point of between 5.6 and 5.0 while the latter is between pH 4.4 and 3.9. i.e. as the end point of alkalinity is around pH 4.4, no alkalinity will exist in beer. Some of any alkalinity in the mash will be passed to the boil and any in the boil that is sodium based will be passed to the FV and eliminated by the yeast.

I feel the OP would not be confused by my original post, but wonder when reading the subsequent. Furthermore, as mash pH is a product of grist, calcium, magnesium and alkalinity (or acidic additions for pale mashes with little calcium present), experienced brewers can, and most do, have an alkalinity target as did the OP. Brewing without a target except for pH reminds me of the consequences of a sequence in "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid" when they are chased and arrive at a deep ravine with a fast flowing river. They were over optimistic just before the final scene too. Know your wort from your beer and have a target for alkalinity, it can be vital.

My starting point for Porter is 70 ppm alkalinity as CaCO3, with 150 ppm Ca, 35 mg, 35 Na, 100 SO4 and 300 Chloride. Of course this is variable to suit the grist, but know this won't be the most professed basis for a US Porter.

 

[Holden Caulfield]

Thanks so much for all your responses. Below is my attempt at summarizing the key points. Please correct if something is wrong.

1. Bicarbonates add nothing to the mouthfeel or flavor of the finished beer, so even though many beer style and city water profiles include an HCO3 target, that target should never be pursued for the sake of hitting the beer style profile's HCO3 target.
2. Since there really isn't a beer style HCO3 ppm target, the purpose of baking soda, or any source of HCO3, is solely to raise a low mash PH to the ideal mash PH - typically only needed for dark styles
3. The amount of baking soda added to the mash should be based on what is required to hit the target mash PH. As stated in 1, if the HCO3 ppm is not in line with the beer style's target profile, it does not matter, all that matters is that the mash PH is on target, and this dictates the HCO3 ppm.
4. Baking soda should never be added to the sparge water or kettle as its only use is to raise mash PH.
5. 65 ppm SO4, 56 ppm CL (1:1ish) should work fine in a porter - that said, dependent on what you like, the amount and ratio can vary considerably

One aside question for Martin, the water guru, or any other takers - if HCO3 ppm beer style targets should not be pursued, why do so many beer style profiles include an HCO3 ppm target? This is contradictory to the objective of focusing on mash PH, not HCO3 ppm (Note - I recognize the HCO3 ppm must be determined for the buffering calculation, but its the proper mash PH that is the goal not the HCO3 ppm).

Thanks again for all your support.

 

[marc1]

Thanks so much for all your responses. Below is my attempt at summarizing the key points. Please correct if something is wrong.

1. Bicarbonates add nothing to the mouthfeel or flavor of the finished beer, so even though many beer style and city water profiles include an HCO3 target, that target should never be pursued for the sake of hitting the beer style profile's HCO3 target.
2. Since there really isn't a beer style HCO3 ppm target, the purpose of baking soda, or any source of HCO3, is solely to raise a low mash PH to the ideal mash PH - typically only needed for dark styles
3. The amount of baking soda added to the mash should be based on what is required to hit the target mash PH. As stated in 1, if the HCO3 ppm is not in line with the beer style's target profile, it does not matter, all that matters is that the mash PH is on target, and this dictates the HCO3 ppm.
4. Baking soda should never be added to the sparge water or kettle as its only use is to raise mash PH.
5. 65 ppm SO4, 56 ppm CL (1:1ish) should work fine in a porter - that said, dependent on what you like, the amount and ratio can vary considerably

One aside question for Martin, the water guru, or any other takers - if HCO3 ppm beer style targets should not be pursued, why do so many beer style profiles include an HCO3 ppm target? This is contradictory to the objective of focusing on mash PH, not HCO3 ppm (Note - I recognize the HCO3 ppm must be determined for the buffering calculation, but its the proper mash PH that is the goal not the HCO3 ppm).

Thanks again for all your support.

1 - yes
2 - yes
3 - yes
4 - yes. you never want it in your sparge, and the only reason I could think to add it to kettle is if you were doing some odd experiment with kettle pH
5 - yes

I'm not sure why people would put it there. If it is part of a "historical" water profile, then it might be there for completeness. Or it might be what that particular brewer has in their water to begin with.
I looked at the Brew'n water, and the version I have (v1.25) in the directions explicitly says not to target bicarbonate, in capital letters, and then says in bold red letters to adjust it for mash pH.

4. The water profile used for brewing should be adjusted to produce a proper mash pH and produce desirable beer taste. Select a target brewing water profile on the Water Adjustment sheet and experiment with mineral and acid additions and/or water dilution to produce that desired water profile. An exact match is NOT required between your adjusted water and the suggested water profiles. Getting within +/-10 ppm of the target should be OK. DO NOT TARGET the bicarbonate value shown in water profiles. The bicarbonate content shown for the water profile is only what might exist to balance the water profile. The bicarbonate content of your mashing water may need to be higher or lower than the value shown in the water profile. Adjust the bicarbonate value as needed to produce your desired mash pH. The final bicarbonate content of the mashing water may vary based on the acidity of your grain bill. ​

​

 

[cire]

I'm a British Brewer living in Britain of the opinion British cask beer is the best drink in the world. My beers would be more likely out of style or score poorly in a US competition than to receive a Gold Medal, but would be, within reason, true to the British style as brewed now or when they were popular.

Thanks so much for all your responses. Below is my attempt at summarizing the key points. Please correct if something is wrong.
1. Bicarbonates add nothing to the mouthfeel or flavor of the finished beer, so even though many beer style and city water profiles include an HCO3 target, that target should never be pursued for the sake of hitting the beer style profile's HCO3 target.

Generally speaking, yes. In Britain alkalinity was mostly controlled with mineral acids since 1880 and by boiling before then for many traditional styles.

2. Since there really isn't a beer style HCO3 ppm target, the purpose of baking soda, or any source of HCO3, is solely to raise a low mash PH to the ideal mash PH - typically only needed for dark styles

Crystal malts can drop pH significantly while not making what might be called a dark beer, so can need alkalinity in the mash liquor.

Again yes, but as most notable British brewing centers had hard water (not by accident) additional alkalinity was improbable for whatever style was brewed. Some dark beers are mashed light in color and darkened later, although probably not for a Porter. The widescale use of RO frequently makes replication of British styles difficult.

3.The amount of baking soda added to the mash should be based on what is required to hit the target mash PH. As stated in 1, if the HCO3 ppm is not in line with the beer style's target profile, it does not matter, all that matters is that the mash PH is on target, and this dictates the HCO3 ppm.

Yes, when using soft water.

4. Baking soda should never be added to the sparge water or kettle as its only use is to raise mash PH.

That is generally so, but should not be taken as an absolute. If calcium is present in sparge liquor it can and will combine with phosphates from malt to lower wort pH just as it can and does in the mash. pH of sparged wort is as important as mash wort. Don't ever think mash pH is the be-all and-end all of producing wort. It is what can wreck a beer, but by itself does not make one.

5. 65 ppm SO4, 56 ppm CL (1:1ish) should work fine in a porter - that said, dependent on what you like, the amount and ratio can vary considerably

The sulfate and chloride ratio has merit only when considered in conjunction with a specific calcium level as it was when first proffered by A A D Comrie in 1967. Every Incremental increase of sulfate will dry a beer up to 400 ppm, while increase in chloride will help body and mouthfeel up to 300 ppm. A 1:1 ratio with 50 ppm calcium will produce a different beer to having that ratio in a beer with 200 ppm calcium, but from your question you understand that and I only put it here for completeness.

One aside question for Martin, the water guru, or any other takers - if HCO3 ppm beer style targets should not be pursued, why do so many beer style profiles include an HCO3 ppm target? This is contradictory to the objective of focusing on mash PH, not HCO3 ppm (Note - I recognize the HCO3 ppm must be determined for the buffering calculation, but its the proper mash PH that is the goal not the HCO3 ppm).

Thanks again for all your support.

Water profiles have cations and anions in equal balance. A water is impossible if they don't reasonably balance. Water profiles for brewing should include all major cations, calcium, magnesium, sodium, potassium and major anions, sulfate, chloride, phosphate, nitrate and alkalinity. With those it can be possible to confirm balance and without alkalinity would be incomplete.

Many profiles supplied in homebrew software, forums and publications are of dubious origin and merit.

 

[doug293cz]

...

That is generally so, but should not be taken as an absolute. If calcium is present in sparge liquor it can and will combine with phosphates from malt to lower wort pH just as it can and does in the mash. pH of sparged wort is as important as mash wort. Don't ever think mash pH is the be-all and-end all of producing wort. It is what can wreck a beer, but by itself does not make one.

...

I disagree with the highlighted statement. pH out of range can severely inhibit the enzyme mediated hydrolysis of the starch (conversion to sugar & dextrin.) We have a recent example of this happening with an excessively low pH. Sparge pH can't affect conversion. It can result in tannin extraction (if the pH [and temp] is too high, but adding baking soda to the sparge water would only make this worse.) Low sparge wort pH can only affect the BK pH, but that is easily adjusted if necessary.

So, because the detrimental effects, which cannot later be mitigated, are more severe and more likely during the mash, I would say mash pH is more important that sparge wort pH.

Brew on

 

[cire]

I disagree with the highlighted statement. pH out of range can severely inhibit the enzyme mediated hydrolysis of the starch (conversion to sugar & dextrin.) We have a recent example of this happening with an excessively low pH. Sparge pH can't affect conversion. It can result in tannin extraction (if the pH [and temp] is too high, but adding baking soda to the sparge water would only make this worse.) Low sparge wort pH can only affect the BK pH, but that is easily adjusted if necessary.

So, because the detrimental effects, which cannot later be mitigated, are more severe and more likely during the mash, I would say mash pH is more important that sparge wort pH.

Brew on

Thank you for this opportunity.

In my first post in this thread, low mash pH and fermentability of wort so produced was mentioned. It isn't good, whatever the determination.

It isn't especially important, but enzymic conversion can happen when sparging. Have all enzymes been denatured, or can they determine a sparge from a mash? Some might mash out, but that does not mean that every brewer in the world does.

Achieving near 100% extraction efficiency by fly sparging brings gravity down to ~1003. Doing this necessitates measuring pH of runnings to avoid extraction of undesirables. This leads to recognition that not all brew in the same manner.

We have concerns in common, but brew in different ways with different objectives. Mash pH can be measured simply using a meter. We have learned it is vital that pH in the mash should be in a limited range. By concentrating on one measurement we risk ignoring what happens when and why. More happens in a mash than conversion of starch to sugar.

Brew on

 

[doug293cz]

Thank you for this opportunity.

In my first post in this thread, low mash pH and fermentability of wort so produced was mentioned. It isn't good, whatever the determination.

It isn't especially important, but enzymic conversion can happen when sparging. Have all enzymes been denatured, or can they determine a sparge from a mash? Some might mash out, but that does not mean that every brewer in the world does.

Yes, enzymatic action can occur during the sparge if conversion wasn't completed during the allotted mash time, and a mash out was not conducted. Two cases are possible. Gelatinization and solubilization of the starch may not have completed during the initial mash, and if they continue during sparging you will be creating additional sugar, and the pre-boil SG will be higher. If gelatinization was complete, then any additional enzymatic action will increase the fermentability of the wort (by making more of the smaller sugar molecules), but the pre-boil SG will not be increased (because you are not getting any addition mass into solution.)

It's pretty simple to prevent the sparge water from causing the pH to go out of whack in the grain bed, simply by acidifying the sparge water to a pH ~5.6. At that point there will be not enough buffering capability in the water to raise, or lower, the pH to a troublesome range. In no case should adjusting sparge water involve additions of baking soda, pickling lime, chalk, etc.

For the above reasons, I believe getting the mash pH correct, is more important than worrying about the sparged wort pH. As long as the sparge water pH is adjusted properly, it won't be able to shift the pH of the sparged wort much.

Achieving near 100% extraction efficiency by fly sparging brings gravity down to ~1003. Doing this necessitates measuring pH of runnings to avoid extraction of undesirables. This leads to recognition that not all brew in the same manner.

My understanding is that most brewers who fly sparge cut off wort collection at around SG 1.010. IIRC, @mabrungard has written that at very low run off pHs, osmotic pressures can lead to extraction of tannins and silicates - even if the pH is in the good range.

We have concerns in common, but brew in different ways with different objectives. Mash pH can be measured simply using a meter. We have learned it is vital that pH in the mash should be in a limited range. By concentrating on one measurement we risk ignoring what happens when and why. More happens in a mash than conversion of starch to sugar.

Brew on

Brew on

 

[mabrungard]

if HCO3 ppm beer style targets should not be pursued, why do so many beer style profiles include an HCO3 ppm target? This is contradictory to the objective of focusing on mash PH, not HCO3 ppm

That’s a valid question. The simple answer is that it’s included to present a balanced water profile, but the real answer is that it’s only a placeholder and not a target. Through the process and adjustments of brewing, acids from various sources will be called on to bring mashing pH into a desirable range. It’s the brewer’s responsibility to figure out what additions are needed if the grist or existing water chemistry can’t do it by itself.

 

[Holden Caulfield]

That’s a valid question. The simple answer is that it’s included to present a balanced water profile, but the real answer is that it’s only a placeholder and not a target. Through the process and adjustments of brewing, acids from various sources will be called on to bring mashing pH into a desirable range. It’s the brewer’s responsibility to figure out what additions are needed if the grist or existing water chemistry can’t do it by itself.

Thanks Martin. While I have a good understanding of water chemistry for brewing, the inclusion of HCO3 as part of beer style profiles has always perplexed me. Now I can sleep at night .