Warm Fermented Lager Thread

[LLBrewer]

Eubayanus will turn up in Europe, we just haven't found it yet. People went through hoops to try and explain how the "Japanese" yeast S. kudriavzevii could have hybridised to form certain European wine yeasts because they couldn't find it in European vineyards - and then they found it on oak trees in Europe. Those same trees that were being cut down to make wine barrels and corks...

Further sequencing has revealed that people are making commercial lager with anything from normal ale yeasts to close relatives of saison yeast - the whole idea of lager requiring a eubayanus hybrid no longer applies. And as this thread has seen, you can make good lager at warm temperatures. So if you don't need cold and you don't need eubayanus hybrids, the whole idea of trying to define "lager" starts to look a bit futile. Like porn, you know it when you see it - it tastes like Bavarian/Czech beers made with pilsner malt, noble hops, with eubayanus hybrid yeast at low temperatures - but none of those are an absolute requirement.

Heretic!!

 

[Miraculix]

Love to hear your thoughts on the Chavellier and historic recipe. I've heard some comments here and there but nothing definitive. Some said it was overwhelming when used as the only base malt. What proportions did you go with?

I will create a new thread for this... do not want to spam too much in this nice thread here

... although, my Schwarzbier will probably contain some of the Chevallier, but not as much as this historic IPA does.

 

[LLBrewer]

Very interesting and informative discussion about yeast. After listening I agree with Drew, I am appropriately confused! https://www.experimentalbrew.com/podcast/episode-59-yeast-mysteries-sui-generis

Finished listening to this on the way home. What an awesome interview with Dr. Heit. He even mentioned that he has had good luck with warm fermented lagers. I wish they would have expanded on the topic a little though.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

Finished listening to this on the way home. What an awesome interview with Dr. Heit. He even mentioned that he has had good luck with warm fermented lagers. I wish they would have expanded on the topic a little though.

I thought the same thing!

 

[bradleypariah]

Very interesting and informative discussion about yeast. After listening I agree with Drew, I am appropriately confused! https://www.experimentalbrew.com/podcast/episode-59-yeast-mysteries-sui-generis

This is extremely enlightening. So THIS is why warm lager fermentation isn't a problem. Conventional lagering wisdom wasn't wrong, we just didn't know which genomes of yeast we were using.

not all Frohbergs and no Saaz are suitable for warm-ferments, but that's not certain.

This conversation is a bit lengthy, so I perhaps missed it, but do we have a list of specific yeasts we should not buy if we plan to make lager in the summer? -or do we just need to Google the brand and strain and try to figure out what family they're from? Sometimes the manufacturer is not forthcoming about whether something is Frohberg, Saaz, PacMan, Chico, etc.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

What an awesome interview with Dr. Heit. He even mentioned that he has had good luck with warm fermented lagers. I wish they would have expanded on the topic a little though.

It's a useful summary but there wasn't really anything new for people who've been following the subject. And the pronunciations drove me nuts, particularly putting an "r" in bayanus...

If you want his thoughts on warm lager, try http://suigenerisbrewing.com/index.php/2016/02/20/its-lager-time/ (although his site has been overloading today)

This is extremely enlightening. So THIS is why warm lager fermentation isn't a problem. Conventional lagering wisdom wasn't wrong, we just didn't know which genomes of yeast we were using.

We didn't know the genomics, but that wasn't really the reason. There's no reason people couldn't have ignored the conventional wisdom and tried fermenting "lager" yeast warm to see what happened, they chose not to - except in the case of California Commons. You could argue that the genomics just gives people the confidence to try experiments that they could have done 100 years ago.

Heck, there's nothing in the public domain about basic stuff like what temperature different commercial lager yeast will grow up to - the textbooks say that "true" lager yeast shouldn't grow at 37C but I suspect reality is messier than that. Testing growth at 37C is something that almost anyone could do.

This conversation is a bit lengthy, so I perhaps missed it, but do we have a list of specific yeasts we should not buy if we plan to make lager in the summer? -or do we just need to Google the brand and strain and try to figure out what family they're from? Sometimes the manufacturer is not forthcoming about whether something is Frohberg, Saaz, PacMan, Chico, etc.

Well Pacman and Chico are different, they're quite narrow strains/families whereas Saaz vs Frohberg is something much bigger, there's an argument that they represent different species or at the very least different "ethnicities" of yeast.

But even Dr Google won't help you much, it's only fairly recently that the Saaz vs Frohberg distinction has come to be appreciated and all the public-domain work has been done by academic labs that get their yeast from their own yeastbanks rather than the local LHBS. However.... Without wanting to give too much away, we should know rather more about the Saaz/Frohberg status of most of the common liquid lager yeasts by the summer - but if anyone has some to contribute that aren't readily available in the UK (ie not Wyeast/WL) then we're open to donations...

It's really early days, at the moment all we really know is that 34/70 (and hence presumably the liquid versions WLP830 and 2124) and S-189 (hence presumably WLP885) work well, plus the California Common yeasts. So there's not really any need to experiment with yeasts if all you want is something that "works" - but obviously it's interesting to broaden out the scope to other yeasts.

Frohberg yeasts are generally German(ic), whereas Saaz yeasts are generally Czech (or from Carsberg). 34/70 is the archetypal Frohberg yeast, and Frohberg yeasts have more ale DNA so you might expect them to prefer warmer temperatures but at the moment we don't really have enough datapoints to be confident in generalising.

 

[Miraculix]

Just to make things a little more complicated, may I add that it also looks like WLP800 is able to ferment lager style beer warm and that it also seems to be actually not a real lager, but an ale yeast?

http://brulosophy.com/2015/06/22/fermentation-temperature-pt-3-lager-yeast-exbeeriment-results/

They did this experiment with it showing that it works warm as well. I will brew a Schwarzbier with it in one or two weeks and then we will know more. I will try to reuse the yeast for future brews, if it works well.
The 34 70 just flocks soooooo badly....... also it gave me off flavours in my setup, although I did totally rush it, I think around 8 days grain to bottle, no time to clean up, and I probably have night/day temperature differences in this room of about 10C, so you really cannot blame the yeast for my faulty handling.

 

[balrog]

...34 70 .... also it gave me off flavours in my setup...I probably have night/day temperature differences in this room of about 10C, so you really cannot blame the yeast for my faulty handling.

I tried 34/70, held (beer temp) at 60°F +/- 1° for a week and got huge peach/stone fruit. Was not happy, and while there was a suggestion to do it again at 68°, I am hesitant to take time in my limited brewing schedule.

 

[Miraculix]

I tried 34/70, held (beer temp) at 60°F +/- 1° for a week and got huge peach/stone fruit. Was not happy, and while there was a suggestion to do it again at 68°, I am hesitant to take time in my limited brewing schedule.

Yes same here (not the stone fruit, but the time problem). But we got many other very good alternatives, we got the california common strains and the wlp800, there is really no need to stick to the 34 70 if there is some doubt about it involved because of personal experiences. Although it seems to work for a lot of people.

 

[applescrap]

Wlp800 or 830 cant remember which one, doesnt work very well. In general i havent cared for their yeasts, ymmv. Clearing these up is hard. Cold crash for a solid 24 hours. Then add gelatin and let sit 3 or more days and be verrry careful racking. This will give a crystal clear beer. Finally finished that marzen I made and it was amazing, really, amazing. Time does seems to help these simple brews.

 

[thunderwagn]

What about healthy exercise? A program of weight training with some limited cardio plus a decent diet could avoid this sort of stuff you are putting yourself through. Giving your hormones a purpose, such as insulin - the most anabolic hormone, with weight training is a better ticket than aimlessness though the litany of diets. Keto is a diet for those who are completely desperate (obese, insulin resistant, etc) or for sophisticated athletes who know how to undertake programmed food consumption.

Ofest diet sounds great for when on a bulk cycle with some "supplements." I might look into that.

+1...beer gets a bad rap. It's easier to point the finger at that and carbs than it is to pick up a barbell or god forbid...do some type of cardio couple times a week...gulp... It's amazing what even a daily walk will do.

 

[buckinin]

I had some similar experiences with clearing. I have had much better luck with 3 day cold crash, then gelatin and very careful transfer. I cut my dip tube a little up on one keg, not sure if that mattered. If the yeast gets tossed into suspension it likes to stay it seems. Imo, whether warm or cold fermented, time is cited as helping make them better. I need to focus on styles I like more. I really liked my first warm ferment, a dunkel maybe it was, and I really like double bock. I also really like bitter pilsners. The malty lagers are not for me at all.

I love the last part of this post! That’s what’s great about home brewing. You can make and drink styles you personally like the most even if they aren’t commonly commercially available! Brew on!

 

[triethylborane]

Wlp800 or 830 cant remember which one, doesnt work very well. In general i havent cared for their yeasts, ymmv. Clearing these up is hard. Cold crash for a solid 24 hours. Then add gelatin and let sit 3 or more days and be verrry careful racking. This will give a crystal clear beer. Finally finished that marzen I made and it was amazing, really, amazing. Time does seems to help these simple brews.

"Doesnt work" is in reference to warm fermentation? Perhaps 830?

 

[Nebraskan]

It is a nice and convenient theory but unfortunatly it is not true in reality.

There is no "CO2-blanket". It is a myth. Gases mix.

My boss, who started the winery with his parents, would disagree with that statement. He has a college degree in Chemistry as well as does our other Assistant Winemaker, who's degree is in food science. Carbon dioxide blankets over wine are real and we do take extra care to renew the CO2 on unfilled tanks, especially this time of year when they are in the room for cold stabilization as CO2 is absorbed by the wine.

 

[cmac62]

I really like double bock. I also really like bitter pilsners. The malty lagers are not for me at all.

Apple I don't know of any lagers more malty than Double bock. They are described as liquid bread. It is what the monks would drink instead of eating during lent. I also happen to love double bock, and you can make it really big, which can be fun.

 

[applescrap]

Well there you go. Haha, appreciate you pointing that out. So some malty lagers I do like. Others not so much.

 

[filthyastronaut]

Just bottled my first warm fermented lager using 34/70, temp plateaued at 66 during active fermentation. Planning to lager in the bottle after normal bottle conditioning. So far disappointed in the flavor, especially when had next to Prost Pils, which is a delicious local pilsner from a German style brewery. Some hops were noticeable, sulfur that was abundant during fermentation was gone, and there were no solvent or fruity flavors, very clean, yet there is a pronounced astringency (different from hop bitterness) and the flavor was somewhat dull. Hoping biofine, conditioning, and lagering will fix it. There was a nice honey-like pilsner malt flavor lurking underneath, but very faint. Here's the recipe:

Title: 72 Hour Hold

Brew Method: BIAB
Style Name: German Pils
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 2.5 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 3.5 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.036
Efficiency: 80% (brew house)


STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.050
Final Gravity: 1.010
ABV (standard): 5.27%
IBU (tinseth): 46.19
SRM (morey): 3.73

FERMENTABLES:
4 lb - German - Pilsner (97%)
2 oz - German - Melanoidin (3%)

HOPS:
1 oz - Hallertau Hersbrucker, Type: Pellet, AA: 3.1, Use: First Wort, IBU: 26.77
2 oz - Hallertau Hersbrucker, Type: Pellet, AA: 3.1, Use: Boil for 10 min, IBU: 19.41

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Infusion, Temp: 156 F, Time: 60 min, Amount: 2 gal

YEAST:
Fermentis / Safale - Saflager - German Lager Yeast W-34/70
Starter: No
Form: Dry
Attenuation (avg): 83%
Flocculation: High
Optimum Temp: 48 - 72 F

Rebrewing on Friday and gonna try a cooler but still warm temperature with Tradition instead of Hersbrucker, and no Melanoidin. Also Brewtan B.

 

[Smellyglove]

Just bottled my first warm fermented lager using 34/70, temp plateaued at 66 during active fermentation. Planning to lager in the bottle after normal bottle conditioning. So far disappointed in the flavor, especially when had next to Prost Pils, which is a delicious local pilsner from a German style brewery. Some hops were noticeable, sulfur that was abundant during fermentation was gone, and there were no solvent or fruity flavors, very clean, yet there is a pronounced astringency (different from hop bitterness) and the flavor was somewhat dull. Hoping biofine, conditioning, and lagering will fix it. There was a nice honey-like pilsner malt flavor lurking underneath, but very faint. Here's the recipe:

Title: 72 Hour Hold

Brew Method: BIAB
Style Name: German Pils
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 2.5 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 3.5 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.036
Efficiency: 80% (brew house)


STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.050
Final Gravity: 1.010
ABV (standard): 5.27%
IBU (tinseth): 46.19
SRM (morey): 3.73

FERMENTABLES:
4 lb - German - Pilsner (97%)
2 oz - German - Melanoidin (3%)

HOPS:
1 oz - Hallertau Hersbrucker, Type: Pellet, AA: 3.1, Use: First Wort, IBU: 26.77
2 oz - Hallertau Hersbrucker, Type: Pellet, AA: 3.1, Use: Boil for 10 min, IBU: 19.41

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Infusion, Temp: 156 F, Time: 60 min, Amount: 2 gal

YEAST:
Fermentis / Safale - Saflager - German Lager Yeast W-34/70
Starter: No
Form: Dry
Attenuation (avg): 83%
Flocculation: High
Optimum Temp: 48 - 72 F

Rebrewing on Friday and gonna try a cooler but still warm temperature with Tradition instead of Hersbrucker, and no Melanoidin. Also Brewtan B.

When you say "dull" and "astringency" my first thought is you water. Maybe you need to get your mash pH down? If not then at least imo dullness is a classic with warm-fermented lagers, at least the ones I've tasted. Maybe it helps if you ferment it under pressure.

 

[filthyastronaut]

When you say "dull" and "astringency" my first thought is you water. Maybe you need to get your mash pH down? If not then at least imo dullness is a classic with warm-fermented lagers, at least the ones I've tasted. Maybe it helps if you ferment it under pressure.

Looking back at my notes, I did accidentally put in my normal amount of gypsum for an IPA (last thing I brewed before it was an IPA). So around 150 ppm Sulfate in a Pilsner could easily explain the astringency. Gonna shoot for more like 40 ppm next time.

 

[Smellyglove]

Looking back at my notes, I did accidentally put in my normal amount of gypsum for an IPA (last thing I brewed before it was an IPA). So around 150 ppm Sulfate in a Pilsner could easily explain the astringency. Gonna shoot for more like 40 ppm next time.

I was thinking more in the lines of acid, or acid malt.

 

[filthyastronaut]

I was thinking more in the lines of acid, or acid malt.

I do use Lactic acid to make pH adjustments. It's just the high level of sulfate the first time around is probably causing extra astringency, and I'll fix that the next time around.

 

[Smellyglove]

I feel that high levels of Caso4 gives a sort of "papery-dry" feeling. But that might have been what you experienced too.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

This is my La Bici 5 Rabbits Vienna lager clone from the Session Beers book. Brewed a couple of months ago and bottled from the keg. I really like this beer! Warmish fermented with 34/70 and really coming into its own now that its almost gone! Great malty flavor but still crisp and dry. Damn, gotta brew more!

 

[MaryB]

Sampling my SMASH lager(Belgian Pilsner/Hallertau), ferment temps ranged from 60 to 72 at the end of 4 weeks. Not bad at all! 34/70 for yeast and no off flavors, clean malt/hop character shines through!

 

[applescrap]

[emoji121] [emoji109]

 

[Miraculix]

Just bottled my first warm fermented lager using 34/70, temp plateaued at 66 during active fermentation. Planning to lager in the bottle after normal bottle conditioning. So far disappointed in the flavor, especially when had next to Prost Pils, which is a delicious local pilsner from a German style brewery. Some hops were noticeable, sulfur that was abundant during fermentation was gone, and there were no solvent or fruity flavors, very clean, yet there is a pronounced astringency (different from hop bitterness) and the flavor was somewhat dull. Hoping biofine, conditioning, and lagering will fix it. There was a nice honey-like pilsner malt flavor lurking underneath, but very faint. Here's the recipe:

Title: 72 Hour Hold

Brew Method: BIAB
Style Name: German Pils
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 2.5 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 3.5 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.036
Efficiency: 80% (brew house)


STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.050
Final Gravity: 1.010
ABV (standard): 5.27%
IBU (tinseth): 46.19
SRM (morey): 3.73

FERMENTABLES:
4 lb - German - Pilsner (97%)
2 oz - German - Melanoidin (3%)

HOPS:
1 oz - Hallertau Hersbrucker, Type: Pellet, AA: 3.1, Use: First Wort, IBU: 26.77
2 oz - Hallertau Hersbrucker, Type: Pellet, AA: 3.1, Use: Boil for 10 min, IBU: 19.41

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Infusion, Temp: 156 F, Time: 60 min, Amount: 2 gal

YEAST:
Fermentis / Safale - Saflager - German Lager Yeast W-34/70
Starter: No
Form: Dry
Attenuation (avg): 83%
Flocculation: High
Optimum Temp: 48 - 72 F

Rebrewing on Friday and gonna try a cooler but still warm temperature with Tradition instead of Hersbrucker, and no Melanoidin. Also Brewtan B.

How long did you leave it in primary? From my experience, at least three weeks are necessary to get things in a nice range. The yeast really needs time to settle and to clear things up. Rushing it will result in dull and strange flavors.

 

[filthyastronaut]

How long did you leave it in primary? From my experience, at least three weeks are necessary to get things in a nice range. The yeast really needs time to settle and to clear things up. Rushing it will result in dull and strange flavors.

2 weeks. Possible it was too short, but it did clear up quite well. They are brilliantly clear now in the bottle, and I'll taste one after another week and then probably wait one more week before putting them in the fridge to lager in the bottle.

 

[Miraculix]

2 weeks. Possible it was too short, but it did clear up quite well. They are brilliantly clear now in the bottle, and I'll taste one after another week and then probably wait one more week before putting them in the fridge to lager in the bottle.

I meant it more in a way of "clearing up the flavour", sorry for the misleading description.

 

[filthyastronaut]

I meant it more in a way of "clearing up the flavour", sorry for the misleading description.

No worries. If it did need more time in the primary the same cleaning up of flavor should still occur in the bottle.

 

[Miraculix]

No worries. If it did need more time in the primary the same cleaning up of flavor should still occur in the bottle.

Nope, not enough yeast left to do the job properly.