Warm Fermented Lager Thread

[bailey mountain brewer]

I was under the impression I could ferment a lager strain at 60 to 65f under 12 to 15 psi for a couple weeks then add finings and cold crash and have it ready to drink in a month from brew day?? Maybe I am mistaken.

 

[HM-2]

I was under the impression I could ferment a lager strain at 60 to 65f under 12 to 15 psi for a couple weeks then add finings and cold crash and have it ready to drink in a month from brew day?? Maybe I am mistaken.

For a low OG adjunct lager like that proposed you absolutely can. Should be perfectly attainable.

Fermenting using a lager strain at ale temperatures and with around a bar / 12psi pressure will net you a clear output in much less time.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

For a low OG adjunct lager like that proposed you absolutely can. Should be perfectly attainable.

Fermenting using a lager strain at ale temperatures and with around a bar / 12psi pressure will net you a clear output in much less time.

Ok thank you, this is what I was hoping to pull off. I have a room that I think will work good temperature wise, now I just gotta squeeze in a brewday...

 

[balrog]

now I just gotta squeeze in a brewday...

I think we need to make up some hats with that on it.

 

[Shenanigans]

I think we need to make up some hats with that on it.

I would buy the T-shirt version

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

I second that.

 

[Yesfan]

........The challenge - 5 weeks from now I need to have a keg of Mexican lager ready to enjoy. If you look at the calendar you can probably guess why........

Mother's Day?


I brewed a Mexi-lager with Que Bueno once. That should be the same as the WLP940. My intent was to pressure ferment at 15psi at 65F (basement temps). I don't know if my All Rounder has a cracked lid or what, but I never could get it to seal that day and my fermentation temp was around 72F-74F at 0psi. The beer still turned out fine and I since bought a replacement lid. I've not brewed another batch in the All Rounder since then as I haven't had the time brew (despite buying new gear/ingredients ).

Now, I'm not suggesting to repeat what I did. Just saying that, maybe my experience will put your mind somewhat at ease should something go south.

 

[ncbrewer]

Mother's Day?

Cinco de Mayo

 

[DevilsCups]

Just brewed a Vienna-ish lager on Saturday and it's rocking now. 90% Weyermann Vienna, 10% Swaen Melany, 28 IBU with all Perle. Pitched Diamond and it's fermenting at 68ºF now under 15psi of pressure (from the start). Excited to see how this one turns out. Wort tasted excellent.

The SPUNDit is sounding like a machine gun.

 

[DevilsCups]

Sampled today. It's sitting at 1.016 from 1.053. Tastes lovely, but yeasty (of course). Closed up the spunding valve to 25psi, though I missed the boat for a decent natural carb by a few points.

 

[Genuine]

regarding my process: for a 5.5 gallons of 1.050-1.055 blond lager, i typically pitch two sachets of 34/70 (2 x 11g). is anyone pitching just one pack? i wonder if warm-fermented lagers can get by with a lower pitch rate, given the higher temps?

When I started making lagers a couple years ago, I didn't realize that people were pitching more yeast than 1 packet for a 5 gallon batch....and I haven't noticed any negative effects from pitching one packet.

 

[BongoYodeler]

I've been interested in this thread for a while but have never tried fermenting warm with lager yeast yet. I came across a recipe online that seems like it could be close to a Genesee Cream Ale, one of my long-time favorite beers. I think I remember reading somewhere that while they call it a cream ale Genesee ferments this beer with lager yeast. At any rate I think this might be a good recipe for my first warm lager attempt. My LHBS has switched from White Labs to Wyeast liquid, and mosty Cellar Science, (plus a handful of other brands) dry yeast. Looking at his stock my local choices would be WY2112, 2124, 2206, 2308 all liquid. Dry choices would include CS Berlin, German, and MJ M54. Any specific recommendations between those? If not, I can always order online for other options. But I'd rather support local unless there's a good reason to order online.

What say you?

 

[InspectorJon]

Fermentis 34/70 has a proven track record for doing well up to the upper 60s, some report good results into the low 70s. It is a favorite in this thread. Not everyone thinks its the best but there is wide consensus that it is good. Cellar Science German is reported to be the same thing.

 

[beervoid]

Fermentis 34/70 has a proven track record for doing well up to the upper 60s, some report good results into the low 70s. It is a favorite in this thread. Not everyone thinks its the best but there is wide consensus that it is good. Cellar Science German is reported to be the same thing.

Both Diamond and 34/70 worked good for me, honestly couldnt tell much difference between those and novalager.

 

[Miraculix]

I've been interested in this thread for a while but have never tried fermenting warm with lager yeast yet. I came across a recipe online that seems like it could be close to a Genesee Cream Ale, one of my long-time favorite beers. I think I remember reading somewhere that while they call it a cream ale Genesee ferments this beer with lager yeast. At any rate I think this might be a good recipe for my first warm lager attempt. My LHBS has switched from White Labs to Wyeast liquid, and mosty Cellar Science, (plus a handful of other brands) dry yeast. Looking at his stock my local choices would be WY2112, 2124, 2206, 2308 all liquid. Dry choices would include CS Berlin, German, and MJ M54. Any specific recommendations between those? If not, I can always order online for other options. But I'd rather support local unless there's a good reason to order online.

What say you?

My best warm lager was with imperial yeast harvest. The second best was wlp800 followed by 3470. 3470 is a really solid yeast but it shines in very hop forward styles, especially American ones, if you ask me. Harvest shines everywhere where hop flavour is not important, it really focuses on the grains and mutes the hops. Think of Augustiner Helles, that's the yeast that can do this type of beer. So in your case, my first choice would be harvest, but the other two options would give you great beers as well.

 

[DuncB]

Sampled today. It's sitting at 1.016 from 1.053. Tastes lovely, but yeasty (of course). Closed up the spunding valve to 25psi, though I missed the boat for a decent natural carb by a few points.

You might not have done

 

[tracer bullet]

I've been reading and watching this thread for a while, but never quite figured out what folks are hoping to achieve. Is it just that it's OK to warm ferment a lager yeast and not have terrible beer, making the process easier? Or is it that the beer tastes better in any way?

If the latter is it a stronger or weaker flavor, as far as say esters go? I've been tinkering with a Negra Modelo inspired recipe and trying different yeasts in it. Just had a real one last night and loved it. I'd guess the closest match would be a "Mexican" lager yeast i.e. WLP 940 and fermented cold, but wondering if I should be getting onto this warm train?

 

[dmtaylor]

I've been reading and watching this thread for a while, but never quite figured out what folks are hoping to achieve. Is it just that it's OK to warm ferment a lager yeast and not have terrible beer, making the process easier? Or is it that the beer tastes better in any way?

If the latter is it a stronger or weaker flavor, as far as say esters go? I've been tinkering with a Negra Modelo inspired recipe and trying different yeasts in it. Just had a real one last night and loved it. I'd guess the closest match would be a "Mexican" lager yeast i.e. WLP 940 and fermented cold, but wondering if I should be getting onto this warm train?

Grain to glass is a LOT faster, and just as delicious. No dorking around, just git 'er done!

 

[InspectorJon]

Is it just that it's OK to warm ferment a lager yeast and not have terrible beer, making the process easier?

As @dmtaylor said, it is faster, which seems to have been a primary objective for the OP. Another reason is that some folks don't have the ability to achieve the typical low temperature for a traditional lager. Fermenting warmer also allows one to use less yeast. Pitch at ale rate vs. traditional lager rate.

There are lots of traditionalists that think this is all foolishness and that the "correct" flavor is sacrificed. Certainly many lager yeasts do not work well with this method and those that do are being used "off label". With some very clean flavored (no flavor) yeast there is likely little or not flavor difference. Others do produce a difference at warmer temperatures. Flavor, better or worse, is very subjective.

It would take a pretty complicated experiment to do a truly subjective comparison between the same beer fermented as a traditional lager and a warm fermented one. One would have to come up with a process that eliminated any other variables other than time and temperature. And that in itself is two variables.

 

[beervoid]

As @dmtaylor said, it is faster, which seems to have been a primary objective for the OP. Another reason is that some folks don't have the ability to achieve the typical low temperature for a traditional lager. Fermenting warmer also allows one to use less yeast. Pitch at ale rate vs. traditional lager rate.

There are lots of traditionalists that think this is all foolishness and that the "correct" flavor is sacrificed. Certainly many lager yeasts do not work well with this method and those that do are being used "off label". With some very clean flavored (no flavor) yeast there is likely little or not flavor difference. Others do produce a difference at warmer temperatures. Flavor, better or worse, is very subjective.

It would take a pretty complicated experiment to do a truly subjective comparison between the same beer fermented as a traditional lager and a warm fermented one. One would have to come up with a process that eliminated any other variables other than time and temperature. And that in itself is two variables.

In my experience it might ferment out faster but it still needs at least a good week or more to become clear and start tasting in spec.

 

[InspectorJon]

In my experience it might ferment out faster but it still needs at least a good week or more to become clear and start tasting in spec.

Vs. lagering for several weeks or months...

 

[beervoid]

Vs. lagering for several weeks or months...

I doubt you gain much time on a low temp ferment vs higher. Maybe a few days? After that its the same lagering time to get it in spec which is up to everyone's own pallet. For me they taste just fine after a week or so, the clearer the beer becomes the cleaner.
Maybe fining could speed it a little more.

 

[dmtaylor]

In my experience it might ferment out faster but it still needs at least a good week or more to become clear and start tasting in spec.

Oh no! An extra week or two! Say it isn't so!

I mean, I agree with you. Most beers taste better after an extra week or two of conditioning. Especially lagers. But NOT a MONTH OR TWO like traditionalists would have us believe.

 

[beervoid]

Oh no! An extra week or two! Say it isn't so!

I mean, I agree with you. Most beers taste better after an extra week or two of conditioning. Especially lagers. But NOT a MONTH OR TWO like traditionalists would have us believe.

Yes my point being, but perhaps im not such a lager connoisseur as others, I never really enjoyed the style much.

 

[sweetcell]

I've been reading and watching this thread for a while, but never quite figured out what folks are hoping to achieve. Is it just that it's OK to warm ferment a lager yeast and not have terrible beer, making the process easier? Or is it that the beer tastes better in any way?

my goal for warm fermenting - just me, personally - is to make a lager without having to invest in a fermentation fridge (read: SWMBO will murderlize me if i add yet another appliance to the basement). so: how to make the best lager at ambient temps?

i'm certainly not warm-fermenting for any flavor differential... at best, if all the stars align, a WF can taste as good as a traditionally cool-fermented lager. the risk of a few more esters is one i'm willing to take, vs. giving up on lagers entirely. luckily, so far, my WF lagers have turned out very clean. YMMV.

 

[Shenanigans]

my goal for warm fermenting - just me, personally - is to make a lager without having to invest in a fermentation fridge (read: SWMBO will murderlize me if i add yet another appliance to the basement). so: how to make the best lager at ambient temps?

i'm certainly not warm-fermenting for any flavor differential... at best, if all the stars align, a WF can taste as good as a traditionally cool-fermented lager. the risk of a few more esters is one i'm willing to take, vs. giving up on lagers entirely. luckily, so far, my WF lagers have turned out very clean. YMMV.

My sentiments exactly.
Especially with the SWMBO.
She's been green washed and if she see another fridge in the basement she will not be impressed
Happy wife is a happy life!
Although we are not married yet after over 20 years together

 

[rallenhall]

I've done warm fermented lagers (usually with wet t-shirt and fan, esp. when summer basement temp is around 70F), along with pressure fermented and traditional cold fermented. All make acceptable beers with the 34/70 family of yeast strains. I do find, however, that when I have brews of the same recipe to compare, I tend to like cold fermented the best. Not to say that the others are bad ... they're just fine when they stand alone.

 

[DevilsCups]

You might not have done

Hoping so! It's still going, bit by bit. Down to 1.012 today. Not the end of the world if it doesn't reach desired vols via spunding!

 

[Yesfan]

Would 34/70 be good for a Mexi-lager? I have the Atlantico kit from NB and was thinking about splitting the batch. 2.5 gallons with WLP-940 and the other 2.5 with 34/70. If another dry yeast is preferable I may just do a starter for the WLP-940 to ferment the whole 5 gallons.

 

[fluketamer]

i liked cellarscince baja for my mexican lager it worked well