Ward Water Report - Long Island, NY

[gi2indking]

Hello all,

Can somebody look at this and tell me if it looks right? My Cations/Anions ratio is off by .10, which I don't think is correct. All my numbers look like they are in line with my local water report SCWA. Does anything look out of whack? I followed all instructions when submitting the sample. Thanks...

 

[ajdelange]

That isn't really a ratio. The two numbers are, respectively the concentrations of cations and anions in the water. Except that they don't agree with the reported ion concentrations. The total of the cations listed is < 0.918 (0.892 if potassium is 0) and this report lists 1.0. There can be little debate about the cations. Yes, there are doubtless other cations in the water but if they aren't measured how can they be listed? Perhaps they run the sample through ICP which their website indicates they have and tally up all the cations even though they don't list them on the report. These would be ions like iron, copper, zinc, aluminum, strontium, and manganese.

If you make the assumption that the only weak acid in the water is carbonic and that the pH measurement is accurate and that alkalinity is measured by titrating to 5.4 (which a pretty good rumor says it is) then the total anions would be 1.051 which, rounded to 1 decimal place is 1.1 so there you have agreement. However the bicarbonate would be 41.46 and the carbonate 0.22. This is a ratio of 0.0053 mmol/mmol which is dictated by the pH and second pK of carbonic acid. The ratio using the reported values is (3/60.04)/(38/61.02) = 0.08 mmol/mmol. This corresponds to a difference between pH and second pK of 1.096. The difference based on pH of 8.1 at 20 °C is 10.33 - 8.1 = 2.23. IOW for the ratio to be as high as they are reporting it the pH would have to be 9.28 so we are not quite sure what they are doing here but we have some ideas.

 

[gi2indking]

I apologize in advance for the long post. I've been trying to brew EdWort's Haus Pale ale as my first all grain beer, and I am having some issues. Here is the recipe - fairly straightforward:

Recipe Type: All Grain
Yeast: Nottingham
Yeast Starter: Nope
Additional Yeast or Yeast Starter: Nope
Batch Size (Gallons): 5.5
Original Gravity: 1.051
Final Gravity: 1.011
IBU: 39
Boiling Time (Minutes): 60
Color: 5 SRM
Primary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp): 10 Days at 68 degrees

Grain Bill
8 lbs. 2-Row Pale Malt
2 lbs. Vienna Malt
0.5 lb. Crystal 10L Malt

Mash
Single Infusion mash for 60 minutes at 152 degrees.
Dough-in with 3.5 gallons of water. After 60 minutes, add 5 quarts of 175 degree water and begin vorlauf. Have another 3.25 gallons of 175 degree water ready for the next batch sparge. You should then get 6.5 gallons to your kettle for the boil.

Boil & Hops
1.0 oz Cascade 6.6% at 60 min.
0.5 oz. Cascade 6.6% at 30 min.
0.25 oz. Cascade 6.6% at 15 min.
0.25 oz. Cascade 6.6% at 5 min.

I have brewed it twice so far. I keyed my water report results (above - first post) into EZ water spreadsheet, and I wound up adding 5g of gypsum to the mash and 6.8g of gypsum to the boil kettle. The first time, I put my new wort chiller in the boil to sanitize it (brewing in the winter), and it killed my boil about 20 minutes before the full hour. I didn't really know what I was doing, and I never got it back to a full boil before chilling it. The beer had an off flavor, and doing some research led me to believe it was DMS because I didn't boil for a full hour. I was wrong.

Here were my salt additions:

I bought the same ingredients and tried again, this time allowing it to boil vigorously for a full hour. I used the same gypsum additions as the first time, and sure enough, it had the same off flavor. I now detect it as a salty/husky/astringent flavor.

I bought the same ingredients again now for a 3rd time, and I was wondering if anyone can make some suggestions...

First some background. My sanitation practices are great - I have brewed several extract batches with no problems. I have a temperature controller fermentation chamber - so no issues there. This is the first time I have ever treated my water, also.

My questions/concerns...

Could the gypsum be giving the beer the off flavor I am experiencing? After doing some more research, I don't think it's necessary to treat the sparge water with gypsum.

Could I be extracting tannins from the batch sparge? I never sparge too hot (168). Is my tap water (untreated) too high of a pH for batch sparging? Should I be treating my sparge water with acid?

With my current water, could I get away with not adding any salts to brew a beer similar to Edworts Pale ale? It seems I would still need to raise my calcium to around 50 ppm.

Most importantly, what salt/acid additions do you think are necessary for me to properly brew Edwort's pale ale? I'm thinking that I should only treat the mash water going forward. After reevaluating, I think I would benefit from adding something similar to this:

Thanks in advance...

 

[afr0byte]

I'd rather doubt you're getting excess tannins. You may just not like that amount of sulfate. Your pH could also still be a bit high (EZ water isn't perfectly accurate.). I would try your second water profile with enough acid malt to make up 2% of your grist.

 

[ajdelange]

Little surprise that it tastes salty or that the hops are astringent with that much gypsum.

See the Primer in the Stickies.

 

[gi2indking]

Little surprise that it tastes salty or that the hops are astringent with that much gypsum.

See the Primer in the Stickies.

I'm going to use my tap water (report above) with 1/2 a Campden tablet to take care of the chlorine. I am going to follow the baseline recommendation in the primer (1 tsp calc chloride per 5 gal treated & 2% total grain weight of acidulated malt. My only concern is that it puts my residual alkalinity at -250. Does anyone see any problems with this plan? Beer I am brewing is edworts pale ale above. Thanks

 

[ajdelange]

It's worked for others. It should work for you.

Don't worry about the RA. It isn't really very meaningful when one starts adding acid to mash. It was conceived in order to allow comparison of brewing waters.

If you can't smell chlorine in your water after agitating it then you don't need to worry about the Campden tablet (not that it is a big deal to include a bit).

 

[ajf]

I also live on Long Island, and my water is fairly similar to yours.
Terry Foster in Pale Ales gives a recommendation of Ca 100 ppm, SO4 200 ppm and Cl 30 ppm. I have found his recommendations to be very good although you may want to cut back on the gypsum a little bit if you are sensitive to it. I also find that if there is a low level of Cl accompanied with a high level of SO4 you can get a harsh flavor, and I just don't like high levels of Cl.

-a.

 

[gi2indking]

I also live on Long Island, and my water is fairly similar to yours.
Terry Foster in Pale Ales gives a recommendation of Ca 100 ppm, SO4 200 ppm and Cl 30 ppm. I have found his recommendations to be very good although you may want to cut back on the gypsum a little bit if you are sensitive to it. I also find that if there is a low level of Cl accompanied with a high level of SO4 you can get a harsh flavor, and I just don't like high levels of Cl.

-a.

My main goal here is to get rid of this husky/grainy/astringent taste. It is more than an off flavor - pretty much undrinkable. In addition to adjusting my water, I am going to:

-Acidify my sparge water with phosphoric acid or sparge with RO water to keep my pH down
-Make sure the sparge temp is <170F.
-Vorlauf thoroughly to ensure no grain bits are making into my boil kettle. I was even thinking of getting some voile fabric and straining the mash runnings.

Any other ideas?

I was so excited to start all grain brewing, and I am so frustrated with my results. I guess all these problems will make it worth it when I finally make a good beer

 

[ajdelange]

... and I just don't like high levels of Cl.

Wonder if you could amplify on that a little. How high is how high and what is it you don't like e.g. too sweet? Too...?

 

[afr0byte]

My main goal here is to get rid of this husky/grainy/astringent taste. It is more than an off flavor - pretty much undrinkable. In addition to adjusting my water, I am going to:

-Acidify my sparge water with phosphoric acid or sparge with RO water to keep my pH down
-Make sure the sparge temp is <170F.
-Vorlauf thoroughly to ensure no grain bits are making into my boil kettle. I was even thinking of getting some voile fabric and straining the mash runnings.

Any other ideas?

I was so excited to start all grain brewing, and I am so frustrated with my results. I guess all these problems will make it worth it when I finally make a good beer

Perhaps you've been picking up some kind of bacterial infection? I've never had one, but Palmer says acetic (think vineger) bacteria can cause a an almost astringent flavor.

 

[ajf]

Wonder if you could amplify on that a little. How high is how high and what is it you don't like e.g. too sweet? Too...?

I was talking about pale ales that suit my palate. That is generally hoppy pale ales. My water is low in both chlorides and sulfates, and I find the addition of gypsum accentuates the bitterness, and I like this. I also find that chloride in small amounts adds fullness to the beer which I also like in moderation. I find it similar to adding some medium crystal, but without the color

For pale ales with an OG < 1.050, I typically use Cl at 20 ppm and SO4 at 100 - 200 ppm
With an OG > 1.060, I typically use Cl at 30 ppm, and SO4 at 300 - 400 ppm.
Using less than 20 ppm of Cl with about 150 ppm SO4 does result in some very harsh flavors, and increasing the Cl from 20 to 30 ppm seems to cause a flavor difference similar to adding 4 oz Crystal 60 in a 5g batch. This is what I don't like.

I never intentionally go over about 30 ppm Cl.

-a.