Ward labs report for Boulder, CO, opinions?

[kansas_cty_shfl]

Water chemistry is a bit above my head so I'm hoping for some feedback on what I need to/should do. Also wanted to throw this out there for anyone else in the Boulder area that might be curious about this.

pH: 8.0
Na: 3
K: <1
Ca: 19
Mg: <1
Total hardness CaCO3: 52
SO4-S: 2
Cl: 3
CO3: 6
HCO3: 58
Total alkalinity CaCO3: 58

Ward Labs is impressively fast by the way.

 

[njbabs]

Have you brewed with it before? If not, do nothing and worry about other factors.

Okay, not nothing. Get rid of the chlorine/chloramine (the former can be removed by boiling/carbon filter. my water has chloramine and I use campdem tabs to treat it before brewing.

Still not satisfied? Well, what are you planning to do? That makes ALL the difference. You'll treat it different for a dark/light/particular style of beer. Try this great link from Palmer's How to Brew: http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15-3.html
EDIT: removed link per mabrungard's suggestion

Scroll down on that page and you'll find his great calculator. He has instructions included and, while it might seem intimidating, once you learn it it's a breeze: http://howtobrew.com/section3/Palmers_Mash_RA_ver3ptO.xls

This is a good place to start, but there are other calculators out there (like Kai's found here: http://braukaiser.com/documents/Kaiser_water_calculator_US_units.xls).

But really, just brew with it unless you know the recipe/yeast/fermentation/mashing variables are all dialed in and you're still missing something.

Of course, others would/will disagree with me: http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2008/09/i-think-that-water-treatment-has-made.html

 

[mabrungard]

This is excellent water that is a good starting point for brewing water suitable for many styles. The biggest deficiency is low alkalinity if the water is used for brewing a dark beer. Pickling lime is a good way to positively increase alkalinity...chalk is not such a good alkalinity source.

Unfortunately, there are plenty of problems with Palmer's advice for brewing water and his spreadsheet. I also note that the Winning-homebrew site is also filled with very poor advice. Its sad to see misinformation continued to be spread. Sorry to be such a downer for the advice above.

 

[njbabs]

Can you be more specific on the misinformation, that way I wont continue to spread/perpetrate it?

 

[njbabs]

I wish my waters "problem" was too little alkalinity.

But doesn't lime reduce alkalinity? Or at least precipitate out the little calcium in the water profile per Kai's work here?

 

[ajdelange]

John Palmer was (is) a homebrewing pioneer. As such, he didn't get everything quite right the first time out. The main problem is that he based his spreadsheet on the well known correlation between beer color and the alkalinity of the water it is brewed with. There is a correlation but it is much too weak to permit the use of color as the main design parameter for a beer. While John readily admits to the weakness of this model people never the less cleave to it based on the desperate hope that this concept might simplify what is in reality quite a complex subject.

Even statements to the effect that the OP's alkalinity is too low for dark beers perpetuates the myth. Weak correlation means that alkalinity this low may be a problem with dark beers but then again it may not. I and others, for example, brew very dark beers with water at this level of alkalinity and find mash pH in the right range or even at the high end of it. It depends on the grain bill. Thus if you are brewing dark beer you must check mash pH to see which case pertains for the particular grist composition you have. If you follow the recommendations of the spreadsheet without checking mash pH it is likely that your dark beers will be mashed at a pH which is much too high resulting in flat flavored, dull and even, by some accounts, chalky tasting beer. Of course if you add the alkali, check the beer and find out the pH is too high it's too late. It is much better to check the pH without chalk or lime addition and then add it if it is needed.

The other misconception that has arisen from John's spreadsheet is that chloride to sulfate ratio is a significant design parameter. There may even be some some truth to this in UK style beers but in German/Continental brewing it has no relevance at all as the lowest sulfate possible is sought. Again, this is the result of home brewers grasping at a straw. If you could design a beer based on a simple ratio and the SRM home brewing would be a lot easier than it is. But, alas, one cannot.

 

[njbabs]

Good thoughts ajdelange.

At the risk of hijacking this thread, is there any one good resource to go to then? Every spreadsheet seems to have some flaw/benefit and will give you dif. results (perhaps tuned to the designers preferences/water/recipes?)? It seems like any of this is just a 'ball park' endeavor.

That said, I'll stick w/ what I said originally. The easiest thing to do is brew and keep careful notes. If your stout mash pH was too high, you can make adjustments the next go around (... assuming your water hasn't changed). Regardless if it tastes how you like it/want it - no need to worry.

 

[Beerrific]

I would suggest using CaCl2 or CaSO4 (depending on style) to get the Ca up to 50-100ppm. Other than, I bet you will be fine for most beers. I have to add a touch of lactic for very pale beers and a touch of a base (usual NaHCO3 or Ca(OH)2) for very dark beers and this is mostly just to make me feel better for some reason.

My total alkalinity is about half yours. I brewed a 41 SRM beer and with no alkalinity/base additions I hit a pH of 5.3. This pH was measured at mash pH, so my room-temp pH was probably a bit higher. Even more in the desired range.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/dark-beer-mash-ph-201245/

 

[ajdelange]

Good thoughts ajdelange.

At the risk of hijacking this thread, is there any one good resource to go to then?

Alas, no. This may change, however. In the past brewers (the traditional, the commercial and the home) were pretty much stuck with the water they had and were required to fit the beer to the water. As recently as Michael Lewis's tenure at UCD some thought that this was good - that the water differences were what made every brewery unique and there is, of course, truth in that POV. Today, however, we can tailor the water to the beer because water processing equipment is no longer as complicated or expensive as it was. It appears, as a consequence of this, that we may be moving in the direction of thinking that softer (lower mineral content water) makes better beer. If we get to that point brewing water adjustment will be much simpler as everyone would be starting with RO or DI water. I'm not necessarily saying that this would be a good thing as it would remove one dimension from the complexity of beer but it definitely would make water treatment easier.

Every spreadsheet seems to have some flaw/benefit and will give you dif. results (perhaps tuned to the designers preferences/water/recipes?)? It seems like any of this is just a 'ball park' endeavor.

Each spreadsheet models some aspect(s) of water or mash chemistry. Both are quite complex and models, therefore, usually don't have enough degrees of freedom to be very robust. One of the reasons that an RO/DI based approach is simpler is that alkalinity does not need to be modeled. None of the popular spreadsheets model alkalinity correctly. Taking away alkalinity takes away that shortcoming.

Models that are not robust are fine if one understands their limitations. Most home brewers don't even know what mathematical modeling is let alone the relative merits of one spreadsheets model vis a vis that of another and it is here that the danger lies. Many are unaware that models have limitations at all and will (and did) for example believe that stout is brewed with a residual alkalinity of 350 if it is 80 SRM thus blindly following the suggestion that tablespoonfuls of chalk be added to 5 gallon recipes.

 

[StMarcos]

Yeah, that does make sense. I had a thread a while back about adding bicarb, and why I should do it, and never got any real answers. I make an oat stout with 1lb choc, 1lb rb, and half an lb bp in a 12G batch, with no (RODI base) HCO3, moderate minerals otherwise, and the pH is always fine. I pretty much make two waters, one for ales and one for lagers. The ale water is a bit higher in minerals across the board, and the lagers generally don't have sulfate. I usually add some lactic acid, except for the stout.