Want to brew my first iipa

[Soldevi]

The only thing I don't have is a way to oxygenate my wort.

I do have a small aquarium pump but no stone. Should I attempt this brew without an oxygen tank? Or should I wait?

Og is anticipated to be around 1.087.

Cheers

 

[Jim_Holmes]

you can oxygenate by pouring the wort back and forth between your brewpot and fermenter a couple of times after its cooled

 

[Soldevi]

Do you think I'm going to get enough oxygen in the wort that way for a healthy fermentation? I'm gonna need this to finish pretty dry, and will be using liquid yeast.

 

[IL1kebeer]

The only thing I don't have is a way to oxygenate my wort. I do have a small aquarium pump but no stone. Should I attempt this brew without an oxygen tank? Or should I wait? Og is anticipated to be around 1.087. Cheers

If you are going to do beer that big without pure o2 then you will have problems with attenuation and off flavors. It is impossible to get the required amount of dissolved o2 into solution by any other means, including shaking, splashing, aquarium pumps etc. This information can be found in multiple credible brewing resources with a little bit of research. The book "Yeast" and the Wyeast website have great information about the benefits of optimum o2 levels, as well as information on how much oxygen the various methods will provide. There are plenty of other resources that cover this as well.

However, I see people say that they do big beers without pure o2 all the time on HBT. I have done it both ways and can say from experience that big beers attenuate better and taste better with pure o2. Final gravity is reached faster as well. You certainly CAN do a beer that big without pure o2, but it's really not the best way to do things and you may be posting here a week later asking why your FG is so high.

 

[Soldevi]

If you are going to do beer that big without pure o2 then you will have problems with attenuation and off flavors. You certainly CAN do a beer that big without pure o2, but it's really not the best way to do things and you may be posting here a week later asking why your FG is so high.

This is exactly what I'm worried about. A beer like this is not really cheap to brew and if I will have a greater possibly of success with the tank then its probably time I get one.

 

[IL1kebeer]

This is exactly what I'm worried about. A beer like this is not really cheap to brew and if I will have a greater possibly of success with the tank then its probably time I get one.

Yeah. Don't cut corners. You will still end up making beer by splashing or shaking or whatever, but the chances for headaches, problems, and a subpar batch are high. You are right by wanting to use pure o2 for this beer. Trust me, you won't regret your decision.

 

[Soldevi]

Thanks for the reassurance. I'm sure it'll be a worthy investment.

 

[dcp27]

1.087 isn't that high, you will be completely fine without pure O2. you can always pitch extra to overcome lack of ideal amount of oxygen if you're still worried

 

[IL1kebeer]

1.087 isn't that high, you will be completely fine without pure O2.

1.087 is absolutely high enough of an OG to have less than 8ppm of dissolved o2 in solution.

you can always pitch extra to overcome lack of ideal amount of oxygen if you're still worried

Yeah. Good advice. Way to teach him how to brew high OG beers like a hillbilly and keep him from using pure o2, which is unquestionably the best way to oxygenate.

 

[Yooper]

1.087 isn't that high, you will be completely fine without pure O2. you can always pitch extra to overcome lack of ideal amount of oxygen if you're still worried

I agree. I don't have a pure oxygen system myself. If you shake, stir, agitate the wort you can get 8 ppm or so into the wort. While it's not as high as you'd get with pure o2, it will work out.

Much more important in my opinion is to make sure to make an appropriately sized starter. Use a yeast pitching calculator like like mrmalty.com or yeastcalc.com to ensure the proper amount of yeast. That should work out great for that OG.

 

[Yooper]

Yeah. Good advice. Way to teach him how to brew high OG beers like a hillbilly and keep him from using pure o2, which is unquestionably the best way to oxygenate.

I must brew like a hillbilly and my beers must suck. It's a good thing you're not forced to drink my nasty higher OG beers!

 

[IL1kebeer]

I must brew like a hillbilly and my beers must suck. It's a good thing you're not forced to drink my nasty higher OG beers!

I didn't mean that people that don't use pure o2 are hillbillies. I meant that the reasoning behind over pitching to compensate for the lack of adequate o2 is hillbillyish. I tried to give him a relatively cheap and easy best practice and he was willing to embrace it. Why set him back a step?

I already said earlier that beer can be made from high OG worts without pure o2, but the chances of problems are higher especially if the rest of fermentation isn't dialed in. I also mentioned that I have done it both ways and got better results with pure o2. It's not like I'm making this stuff up out of thin air.

 

[Soldevi]

I appreciate the responses, I understand I could brew the beer without the pure o2 so now I'm kind of wondering why I asked the question. I know that if I continue with this hobby I will want or need it someday anyway.

Maybe I just wanted someone to say yes do it so I'd just make the purchase. I have tried one other somewhat high gravity beer that came out OK.

This will be a brew with a few "news". Biggest stepped starter, biggest mash, lowest mash temp, the use of sugar, a pound of hops, and the use of o2.

You always want something like this to go well.

 

[dcp27]

I didn't mean that people that don't use pure o2 are hillbillies. I meant that the reasoning behind over pitching to compensate for the lack of adequate o2 is hillbillyish. I tried to give him a relatively cheap and easy best practice and he was willing to embrace it. Why set him back a step?

I'm not denying the effectiveness of using pure O2, just simply offering another means to an ends. While it may be the best practice to use pure O2, not using one in this circumstance will more than likely not be an issue. no need to be all hoity toity cawse you git that dem there fancy O2 system

 

[EarlyAmateurZymurgist]

Dissolved oxygen is not a requirement if the yeast culture is large and healthy enough. Yeast do not respire in the presence of glucose concentrations in excess of the Crabtree threshold. All brewing worts contain glucose concentrations greater than the Crabtree threshold; therefore, yeast immediately switch into fermentative mode where they convert a carbon source (wort sugars) into carbon dioxide gas and ethanol.

The only reason yeast cells need oxygen at the beginning of a fermentation is for cell repair and replication. Dissolved oxygen is shunted towards the biosynthesis of ergosterol and unstaturated fatty acids (UFAs) via the respirative metabolic pathway (this process should not be confused with normal cellular respiration). The sterols and UFAs that the mother cells store at the beginning of fermentation are shared with all of their daughter cells, resulting in depletion by the end of fermentation. Pitching a large, healthy yeast culture at high krausen greatly reduces the need for dissolved oxygen because the yeast cells still have sufficient ergosterol and unsaturated fatty acid (UFA) stores, and the number of cell divisions that must occur before the maximum cell density is reached is significantly lower than when a smaller starter is pitched.

Many amateur brewers like to wait until a starter ferments and settles out before pitching. However, this practice results in the pitching of a yeast biomass in which the sterols and UFAs have all but been depleted. A brewer should always attempt to pitch a starter at high krausen.

 

[Yooper]

While I agree that well aerated wort generally will guarantee a healthier fermentation, I"m not sure that there is a huge gain in 8 ppm vs 10 ppm. You can generally get 8 ppm in wort by really working at shaking, aerating with a venturi tube, etc. 10 ppm is only possible with a pure o2 set up. But I don't think the difference will make much of an improvement in the beer, if all other requirements are met.

A too-high concentration of o2 is detrimental to yeast health, so it's important to consider that. Also, some yeast strains use and need more dissolved 02 than other strains, so I hate a blanket statement with "you must do this......" to have a good result.

Ideally, you'd have 8-10 ppm of dissolved 02 in the wort, but without an 02 meter, we're only guestimating anyway. And I really believe that 8 ppm is enough in all but the rarest cases, assuming the other requirements are met.

Most homebrewers underpitch as well as underaerate. I think underpitching has far more consequences than a lack of aeration in most cases. OG really isn't a factor in how much oxygen a wort needs, not really. What is a factor is the amount of yeast cells needed for optimum fermentation, and of course the OG generally does play a part in that when calculating the amount of yeast cells needed so more oxygenation is a good idea. Still, 8 ppm is often adequate and that's the most a homebrewer using room air will be able to incorporate into the wort anyway, so that's what I do.

 

[IL1kebeer]

This is the last thing that I am going to post on this thread because I'm practically getting crucified for preaching the importance of oxygen in fermentation.

The figure below is from "Yeast" and it is as clear as day that ideal o2 rates have a noticeable effect on fermentation. I wanted to help the OP when I suggested that he use pure o2. Maybe next time ill just tell him to shake it -.-

 

[el_caro]

It is impossible to get the required amount of dissolved o2 into solution by any other means, including shaking, splashing, aquarium pumps etc..

I like virtually 99% of all Australian homebrewers have never had access to pure o2 as the cheap equipment available to US brewers is not available here. I have been making beer for 35 years and many are around 8+% ABV and really I have never had issue with stuck fermentation and off flavours.

Personally I have a paint stirrer attached to a cordless drill which I use during the cooling phase to move the wort passed the IC and again once the wort is into the fermentation vessel before pitching the yeast.

Have never measured O2 levels and hence have no idea of the level of oxygen achieved . I stir the crap out of it and end up with 25% froth level. My gut feeling is it is enough(it is the best I can do anyway) and the yeast tell me the same.

 

[thisisbeer]

This is the last thing that I am going to post on this thread because I'm practically getting crucified for preaching the importance of oxygen in fermentation.

The figure below is from "Yeast" and it is as clear as day that ideal o2 rates have a noticeable effect on fermentation. I wanted to help the OP when I suggested that he use pure o2. Maybe next time ill just tell him to shake it -.-

View attachment 168276

Haha lok at u! Got some fanzy info from all them "books"...

Sorry I couldn't help it.

Relax man. I know I'm just jumping in here. But I think everybody just got upset because you called it the hillbilly way. Not everyone has access to pure o2 or is willing to fork out the money to get a system (I know there not a fortune) if they only brew a high og beer every now and then. So you give the person another option to work with. Nobody is saying oxygen is flat out not important. It's just not required. It may make the final product better, but it won't be horrible with out it. You have to remember some people juat can't do things the best way 100% of the time. I do use pure o2 on my beer but I also enjoyed my beer long before I bought the set up.

Also I think you crucified people first with the hillbilly comment...

 

[Yooper]

This is the last thing that I am going to post on this thread because I'm practically getting crucified for preaching the importance of oxygen in fermentation.

The figure below is from "Yeast" and it is as clear as day that ideal o2 rates have a noticeable effect on fermentation. I wanted to help the OP when I suggested that he use pure o2. Maybe next time ill just tell him to shake it -.-

View attachment 168276

Yes, o2 is important.

But look again at the graph you posted. Look at the difference between 8 ppm (the max you can get in by aerating without 02) and 9.2 ppm (with 90 seconds of 02). And this line written right above it: "Increasing the oxygen level past 9 ppm did increase the pace of fermentation for the first three days, but both beers ended up at the same terminal gravity".

In other words, you have proven MY point and not yours.

Seriously, no one is arguing that aeration isn't important and especially in higher OG beers. It just ruffles feathers than you call my way "the hillbilly way" when I may have 8 ppm of o2 in my wort and you may have 9-10 ppm. Both are acceptable, and another way to do things.

Pitching more yeast than many homebrewers do generally has more of an impact on fermentation than aeration (or lack of) and that is important to note.

 

[g-star]

My $0.02:

I have always paid careful attention to pitch rates and yest health. I started with the shake and pray method and moved on to an aquarium pump (filtered air for 20min), and made good beer this way for a long time, even those starting with high density worts.

However, once I decided to get a pure O2 setup, my beers found another gear in flavor and quality. Fermentations had reduced lag, and the final product just tasted more "professional". Flavors were cleaner and brighter. It is hard to put into words, but it was a eureka moment for me.

All beers benefited from pure O2, but the high gravity ales and every lager saw the most improvement.

Bottom line is that I am a strong believer in using pure oxygen, based on my own extensive experience making the same beers both ways. Most people don't pitch enough yeast at the peak of activity to overcome the downsides of using inadequate amounts of O2. It is not absolutely necessary to make good beer, but it does make a difference in taking it to the next level in terms of flavor and quality.

 

[dangerbrew]

Much more important in my opinion is to make sure to make an appropriately sized starter. Use a yeast pitching calculator like like mrmalty.com or yeastcalc.com to ensure the proper amount of yeast. That should work out great for that OG.

Agree 100%.

And if anyone wants to call not using pure o2 the "hillbilly way", then I'm fine with that. I run a WV-based nanobrewery after all and we've never used pure o2 and it works out just fine for us.

Welp, just about to finish up this batch and head out to the porch to sip on some shine and polish my shotgun...

 

[Seven]

As wort gravity increases, solubility of oxygen decreases. It is very important to compensate for the decrease in solubility by oxygenating more aggressively. When brewing high gravity beers, it is best to oxygenate with pure oxygen through a scintered stone.

http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_highgravitybrewing.cfm

 

[T29]

I put my wort into a carboy and cover the hole and shake the hell out of it. Has never failed and i find no need for all the fancy expensive stuff.

 

[EarlyAmateurZymurgist]

Anyone who believes that yeast cells need dissolved oxygen should read the "Olive Oil" paper (http://www.brewcrazy.com/hull-olive-oil-thesis.pdf).

As I stated earlier, yeast cells do not respire in the presence of glucose concentrations above the Crabtree threshold; however, they will switch into respirative reproduction mode after consuming all of the available glucose and all of the sugars that they can reduce to glucose if dissolved oxygen remains in solution. The phenomenon is known as diauxic shift. During diauxic shift yeast cells use ethanol as their carbon source. Diauxic shift is one of the reasons why we do not want to aerate green beer.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3133784/

"The preferred source of carbon and energy for yeast cells is glucose. When yeast cells are grown in liquid cultures, they metabolize glucose predominantly by glycolysis, releasing ethanol in the medium. When glucose becomes limiting, the cells enter diauxic shift characterized by decreased growth rate and by switching metabolism from glycolysis to aerobic utilization of ethanol. "

The shift from anaerobic glycolysis (fermentation) to aerobic utilization of ethanol as a carbon source is why using pure O2 without a dissolved O2 meter is like playing Russian roulette with one's beer.

 

[spenghali]

I run a WV-based nanobrewery after all and we've never used pure o2 and it works out just fine for us.

If you are brewing on a professional level you should definitely be using a pure oxygen system.

 

[Soldevi]

I have to admit, this thread went completely the opposite direction than I though it was going to. After reading all the articles online about pure o2 and aeration I thought for sure everyone was going to say yes.

I said earlier that I do have an aquarium pump so I feel better about using it for this batch. I still plan on getting an o2 system but you guys have made me feel better about having to run out and get one right this minute.

I will make a big stepped starter and slightly over pitch this batch.

 

[g-star]

The shift from anaerobic glycolysis (fermentation) to aerobic utilization of ethanol as a carbon source is why using pure O2 without a dissolved O2 meter is like playing Russian roulette with one's beer.

Please bring your considerable expertise to bear on this question:

At the standard recommended 1.5L/min through a 2um sintered stone using industrial grade O2 into 5 gallons of medium density (~ 1.060) wort, what is threshold at which one crosses over into the danger zone of oxygen oversaturation?

Time - 0.5min? 1min? 2min? more??

Concentration - 10ppm? 12ppm? Higher??

Yes, it depends on yeast health, strain, and pitch rate. Let's assume for the sake of argument we're talking healthy yeast at 1M cells/ml/*Plato of standard Chico ale yeast (WLP001, WY1056) for an ale fermentation at 67F.

Thanks.

 

[IL1kebeer]

It just ruffles feathers than you call my way "the hillbilly way" when I may have 8 ppm of o2 in my wort and you may have 9-10 ppm. Both are acceptable, and another way to do things.

I said I would refrain from posting to this thread but I feel that an apology is in order, and I also feel the need to defend myself from my own comments one last time. I shouldn't have been more clear with what I meant when I said "hillbilly", or better yet, I shouldn't have said what I said. For that, I am sorry if I offended anyone. But again, here is what I meant, as stated earlier:

I didn't mean that people that don't use pure o2 are hillbillies. I meant that the reasoning behind over pitching to compensate for the lack of adequate o2 is hillbillyish

Again, I shouldn't have been name calling at all and I can see why people were offended. I still disagree wih over pitching as a good solution to under oxygenating. I certainly won't call it hillbillyish anymore. To me, it's the same as putting 87 octane gas in a car that requires 91 octane. Of course it will work, but your engine will not perform as well as if you put 91 octane in. I believe that the same can be said for yeast and oxygen. That's why I made a stink about it.

Pitching more yeast than many homebrewers do generally has more of an impact on fermentation than aeration (or lack of) and that is important to note.

I agree 100%

Sorry again if I offended anyone. I was trying to help and ended up being a jerk. I'll be more careful with my words in the future and disagree in a more tasteful manner.

 

[dangerbrew]

If you are brewing on a professional level you should definitely be using a pure oxygen system.

Never had the need. We always pitch an appropriately sized starter onto our batches and aerate wort through splashing. We've never had a problem getting fermentation started and running strong in less than 24 hours, no matter the OG. Our bulkiest offering is 1.078 and it still starts off just fine.

We've had a million other items we've had to invest in and this is something that has proved to be an extraneous and unnecessary expense for us thus far. Maybe someday when we size up we'll look into using o2, but definitely not for a while.