W/ All due respect to Kal...what could you cut on control panel?

[micahwitham]

Looking to convert an all manual brutus10 to Electric.
IF YOU HAD TO...what could you cut from Kal's design on the control panel and still get the job done?
Not looking for FULLY automated but rather something that will read MLT and HLT temps, 2 pumps, HERMS, fly sparging.
I'm thinking I wouldn't need
Alarms
Switch for which element
Pump lights (if I have the switches with on/off, lights seem nice but not necessary)

Here's what I think I do NEED:
On/Off master
Emergency shut off
PID's for MLT/HLT/Boil
Switches for Pumps 1&2

Convince me otherwise all you who are into this already.
Also, anyone looking to buy a brutus10 stand with jet tip burners, gas plumbed to back bar with airtight welds, and a regulator? Live in Minneapolis.
Micah

 

[processhead]

Others may disagree, but for starters, your master on/off switch should really do everything that an ESD switch does.

Unless your master on/off switch is key operated or otherwise somehow difficult to use, I would start with the ESD button.

 

[iijakii]

You already know what you want and what you don't want, don't think of building a Kal panel if that's not what you're going for. Kal has an amazingly resourceful site and has done a lot of helpful work for the electric community, but just because he has the Cadillac blingmaster deluxe do you have to do the same. First decide what your brewing process will be and then build a panel to accommodate that.

 

[micahwitham]

iijakii
I guess that's part of the reason I asked...I don't know all that I want or don't want because I don't have anything to compare. Hoping to tap into the wisdom here on the sight and others who are a few steps ahead.

processhead
that's what I'm looking for...if the on/off switch does the same thing then it's a key to turn instead of a button that I hit...is that about right.

 

[sschevelle]

I did a hybrid between Kal's and The Pol's setup. It has worked great for me. I wish I had added a master switch.

 

[micahwitham]

Curious how the switches work?
when you want the elements on in the HLT or MLT you flip the switch and when they reach your set point you turn them off or do you have an SSR (solid state relay) in there somewhere that the PID's flip when it goes below a set point.

 

[processhead]

iijakii
I guess that's part of the reason I asked...I don't know all that I want or don't want because I don't have anything to compare. Hoping to tap into the wisdom here on the sight and others who are a few steps ahead.

processhead
that's what I'm looking for...if the on/off switch does the same thing then it's a key to turn instead of a button that I hit...is that about right.

The point I was trying to make was that if the master on/off switch is easilly accessed and shuts down all equipment, then an ESD is not needed.
In industrial applications an ESD switch is used when the normal controls are not able to shut down the system quickly or are physically located away from the process.

 

[atoughram]

In industrial applications an ESD switch is used when the normal controls are not able to shut down the system quickly or are physically located away from the process.

One of many points I've been trying to make in other threads

Mushroom Emergency Stop's on a brew panel are for bling only.

Unnecessary...

But everyone has their own opinions..

I'd add that some industrial processes cant have an emergency stop circuits due to de-energizing and disorderly shutdown of a process could be dangerous!

 

[sschevelle]

There are 2 SSR's in the box. The switches are between the PID and SSR. You still have power to the PID to change settings but have no power going to the elements. The third PID just displays the temp in the MLT.

 

[augiedoggy]

Looking to convert an all manual brutus10 to Electric.
IF YOU HAD TO...what could you cut from Kal's design on the control panel and still get the job done?
Not looking for FULLY automated but rather something that will read MLT and HLT temps, 2 pumps, HERMS, fly sparging.
I'm thinking I wouldn't need
Alarms
Switch for which element
Pump lights (if I have the switches with on/off, lights seem nice but not necessary)

Here's what I think I do NEED:
On/Off master
Emergency shut off
PID's for MLT/HLT/Boil
Switches for Pumps 1&2

Convince me otherwise all you who are into this already.
Also, anyone looking to buy a brutus10 stand with jet tip burners, gas plumbed to back bar with airtight welds, and a regulator? Live in Minneapolis.
Micah

all of the stuff you mention skipping are cheap or practically free perks of the pids and this system like alarm feature.... switches are about $2 a piece for the rotary ones and if you don't want a switch to go between elements than you need to spend much more for 50a wiring and components.... with $15 in contractors and a switch you save what $50-75 in additional wiring savings?
The going like redundant indicator lights and and voltage meters and $100 metal box with hammer paint finish can be over the top but not if your brew setup is just as much about looks or impressing the brew buddies which for some it is... for others they just want the most professional setup they can build... nothing wrong with that.
Even the indicator lights were only like .50 a piece.... I have like 11 extra along with 4 switches from my build because I started out trying to be cheap and then realised it would end up costing me more later when I wasn't happy.
All that said and done my whole setup including the elements and mash tun cooler, keggle hlt,13 gallon brew pot with sight glasses and thermometers and CA, lock fittings with 3 12v pumps with the control panel cost me under. $600. To build... .my plate chiller was the biggest single item which I did not include...that was an additional $130. I used the same $30 home depot enclosure pictured above by the way.

I also added two pwm speed controllers for my 12v pumps and an additional 12/24v powersuppy to power the pumps and energize my main relay coils so WHEN my SSR fails in the closed position the relay will still cut the power to the element.... the switches in the pics above would be useless in this situation because they are 15 amp switches and are only good to kill the 30dc that switches the control side of the ssr so the hot leads are still hot until the main is killed. Unfortunataly when the SSR overheats and fails they almost always fail stuck in the "on" closed position. If I didn't have the additional switch and relays in this case as well as indicator lights to show then the heating element is actually on I could potentially turn both elements on at the same time not knowing it and burn up an element or overload my wiring and cause a fire and burn the house down like the house across the street from me from an improperly wired air conditioner...

 

[ChocolateMaltyBalls]

What are you putting inside your panel? Are you using contactors/mechanical relays?

I think that the element selector switch is cheap insurance that you don't have two elements going at once which is an issue if you (like me) only have 30A service.

Kal doesn't have an emergency shut off, and I didn't use one either. It depends on what your comfortable with, some have a switch on the line into the panel. If there were an emergency with my panel that didn't trip the GFCI breaker then I would walk the 5 ft to the breaker box. I probably wouldn't want to touch the panel.

As for alarms, I know the Aubrin PIDs have an alarm indicator on them, but a flashing buzzer is like $8, plus another $3 or so for a shutoff switch. For me it seemed inexpensive for the convenience. The element indicator is also a cheap convenience that could be very helpful for trouble shooting.

I would think minimum: master switch, two PIDs (BK/HLT), two probe inputs, two element indicators, two pump on/off switches ( I only have one as I'm making a housing for the two pumps that will have switches).

The biggest thing you want to have figured out first is where in your system the GCFI goes i.e. Spa panel, GCFI power cord, breaker.

 

[hrafnkell]

I think the 3 PIDs are overkill (one should be sufficient). Most of the buttons and lights too. Make sure you have a button for the pump(s) tho. AMP/Volt meters are mostly useless, too.

But all these things do make the panel look awfully pretty and have their (limited) uses.

 

[augiedoggy]

What are you putting inside your panel? Are you using contactors/mechanical relays?

I think that the element selector switch is cheap insurance that you don't have two elements going at once which is an issue if you (like me) only have 30A service.

Kal doesn't have an emergency shut off, and I didn't use one either. It depends on what your comfortable with, some have a switch on the line into the panel. If there were an emergency with my panel that didn't trip the GFCI breaker then I would walk the 5 ft to the breaker box. I probably wouldn't want to touch the panel.
U
As for alarms, I know the Aubrin PIDs have an alarm indicator on them, but a flashing buzzer is like $8, plus another $3 or so for a shutoff switch. For me it seemed inexpensive for the convenience. The element indicator is also a cheap convenience that could be very helpful for trouble shooting.

I would think minimum: master switch, two PIDs (BK/HLT), two probe inputs, two element indicators, two pump on/off switches ( I only have one as I'm making a housing for the two pumps that will have switches).

The biggest thing you want to have figured out first is where in your system the GCFI goes i.e. Spa panel, GCFI power cord, breaker.

Actually a two pack of 220v flashing buzzers is 4 dollars and change including shipping.... and if you but a 3 position switch for 2.50 you can use one switch for two pid alarms.... just saying we are talking under $5-10 bucks for the additional convieniences...

 

[augiedoggy]

I think the 3 PIDs are overkill (one should be sufficient). Most of the buttons and lights too. Make sure you have a button for the pump(s) tho. AMP/Volt meters are mostly useless, too.

But all these things do make the panel look awfully pretty and have their (limited) uses.

And many of my friends think brewing my own beer is overkill when I can buy it at the store and save all that time and money.... but to each him own just like gas vs electric of all grain vs extract.

Some people here brew on a budget some brew as a passion some brew to impress and some brew to feed an addiction .... What one man might consider ghetto or down right dangerous might be another pride and joy.
My setup is not what would be considered pretty by any means but its what my budget allows and it has the best combination of reasonably prices features I thought I could use to make brewing more enjoyable

 

[hrafnkell]

OP was talking about minimizing components and I was merely responding to that...

As for the added convenience, I can agree to that, but there's also the balance of convenience vs wiring mess and control panel size. F.e. with fewer components your box can be quite a bit smaller than with all the bells and whistles, while maintaining the same functionality.

 

[atoughram]

I think the 3 PIDs are overkill (one should be sufficient). <<SNIP>>

AMP/Volt meters are mostly useless, too.

On my RIMS system, its faster to have the 2nd PID controlling the HLT. I can mash and heat sparge water at the same time.

Before I had the VA meter, the flickering of the overhead lights was the only indication that my RIMS element was working. I think I spent $9 dollars on the VA Meter on Ebay. Money well spent in my opinion.

 

[augiedoggy]

On my RIMS system, its faster to have the 2nd PID controlling the HLT. I can mash and heat sparge water at the same time.

Before I had the VA meter, the flickering of the overhead lights was the only indication that my RIMS element was working. I think I spent $9 dollars on the VA Meter on Ebay. Money well spent in my opinion.

True but again two elements running at the same time requires a 50 amp service and more money for 8/3 wiring and outlets/ and in many cases not needed...

As far as the volt meter a simple 120v or 220v indicator light wired at the load side of the ssr would actually be much cheaper at 50 cents and be easier to use as an indicator than a volt meter....
I added a volt meter because I'm actually just curious of the power draw on my system... I'm running the 220 line today so have yet to power it up.

 

[sennister]

One thing Kal has said many times which I agree with is you really need to figure out your processes first. If you are already doing AG brewing and kind of know what your brew day looks like and your processes it makes it easier. For me it is a bigger change. I am going from partial boil extract brews and jumping into all grain with an electric panel system. Since not only the process going to be new, it is hard to plan things out without time on a system. So to make up for this I have drawn out the plan. Then through research came up with a plan. Next I went to some other brewers in my area from our local club who use electric HERMS breweries and bounced my plan off them, also watched their brew days and asked lots of questions. Then went back to the drawing board and made changes and repeated the process. Of course they each do things their way and their way may not be the way I want to do things in the end but where I have seen differences I really asked questions on. Sometimes this identified issues in what I was planning.

I also started with KAL's design going over the diagrams and directions which are really well put together. Initially my plan was to try and go with a limited implementation of his design and tried to look for ways to cut back leaving room for upgrades and eventually get to something like his design. I was looking at cutting out things like the alarm and going with one PID, SSR, Contactor then move the plug. Later adding the second circuit later. My goal was to keep cost lower and built it over time. In the end I found that I wasn't saving that much. Like others said, many of the things were not that much. It would mean having to go back and rewire things which would be more of a PITA.

So this gets back to what is your intention? Are you doing this to get into electric brewing and minimize cost. Is your plan to later upgrade or just a simpler system to run?

While you could eliminate the Emergency Stop, depending on wiring plan this may or may not be a good idea. I don't recall what they cost but I don't think it is a huge expense. While I say it depends on wiring plan, I think some people go the other way and pretty much use an emergency stop as a master switch, which is an option. Another design is used is to cause the emergency stop to trip the GFCI breaker eliminating power getting to the panel. This wouldn't be ideal as a means to use a emergency stop as a master power switch.

So from Kal's design. I wouldn't eliminate the element switch unless you go with a 50A feed. You could eliminate the BK PID and go with a rheostat. This tied into a SSR will let you use a knob to control the BK rather than the PID. Pretty much everyone uses the PID in manual mode anyhow on the PID. Eliminate the Omega Timer. Sure it is nice but costly and you can do this function with a stop watch or kitchen timer. You can go down to a single PID and use temp gauges for other readings. Dial gauges or digital. Use the single PID for the HLT as you are going to be heating there. As the wort passes through the coil it is going to be heated to that temp. Kal is really only using the PID in the MT for a display for temp. This can be done through other means.

So lots of options, not best answer as what works for one person isn't the best for the next. That is why there are so many panel designs out there.

 

[atoughram]

120v or 220v indicator light wired at the load side of the ssr would actually be much cheaper at 50 cents and be easier to use as an indicator than a volt meter....

I must not have done my shopping very well - cheapest I could find indicator lights was $3 bucks. Not trying to be argumentative here, but where have you found 50 cent indicators? Ebay?

Indicator lights only show the presence of voltage - Current draw shows that the elements are working.

 

[jeffmeh]

Sennister makes the key point (echoing Kal): you need to understand the process you intend to use before you can specify the functional requirements of your control panel. Once you know the process you can determine the minimum functionality to safely support it (there will be multiple means to achieve this, e.g., PWM vs. PID, heavy duty switches vs. switches with contactors, etc.). Then you will be able to evaluate each additional feature that Kal and others have incorporated, to understand whether you value it sufficiently to warrant the cost.

Different processes have different control panel requirements.

 

[atoughram]

Different processes have different control panel requirements.

Absolutely - A control panel for BIAB, HERMS, and RIMS all have different requirements.

 

[augiedoggy]

I must not have done my shopping very well - cheapest I could find indicator lights was $3 bucks. Not trying to be argumentative here, but where have you found 50 cent indicators? Ebay?

Indicator lights only show the presence of voltage - Current draw shows that the elements are working.

so does the pid temp indicator?

Some of the stuff I used...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/230919488173?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649

http://www.ebay.com/itm/140735792449?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=181288885392

http://www.ebay.com/itm/200967034193?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649

http://www.ebay.com/itm/281074966227?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649

http://www.ebay.com/itm/400569511416?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649

 

[atoughram]

so does the pid temp indicator?

Some of the stuff I used...

Looks like I could've saved a few bucks... Thanks for sharing

All PID I've seen have the PV (Process Variable) displayed when they are on.

 

[milldoggy]

I would cut the volt and amp meter, that's it. I love my kal clone and the way it works. You could skip the timer and use a watch. Alarms are not required, but nice and don't cost much. The pid for the mash does not control anything, it is just a temp gauge. You could remove it if you wanted.

 

[atoughram]

The pid for the mash does not control anything, it is just a temp gauge. You could remove it if you wanted.

Depends on your process - It's required on my RIMS

 

[augiedoggy]

I used a setos timer that I picked up for 28 bucks shipped from ebay... I figure in the grand scheme of things its well worth it.
I spend the greater part of the day today doing some more placement and mounting my control panel... I have my setup in from of a window in a spare room and plan to use an old range hood mounted at the top of the window so when I pull down the top window panel a bit the blower will blow the steam out the top opening... in theory anyway.. got to do what I can to keep costs down and splurge where I think its best.

 

[Spellman]

A lot of great points have been made already. I for one didn't use the volt/amp meters or timer either, but would also highly recommend all the switches, lights, and buzzer. Just got mine done right before christmas and wouldn't dream of not having those features. To save money I only got one pid to start with, but wired in the ssrs and outlets on the panel. I got the other ones for christmas and they weren't too hard to wire in after. You definitely want to make all your holes at the same time though. The other big saver for me was I scoured ebay and amazon for a couple months looking for the best deals. I bet that saved me $200-$300 easy over the course of my build. I decided to go 50a because I thought "why wouldn't I? Just a little more cost in the wire to the panel." Then I realized how much more expensive that cable was, then the cost of the breakers in the box. In the end that upgrade was probably about another $100 more for me due to the diligent shopping, and I am glad I did it. If you look around and shop for the best deals, you can have your beer and drink it too!

 

[micahwitham]

Thanks for all the great thoughts and discussion here.
My process is pretty streamlined at this point.
HLT has a copper coil (old immersion chiller) and wort is recirced during mash from MLT, through HLT heated to mash temp, and back to MLT over the top.
Sparge/MashOut is accomplished by heating HLT to Mash Out Temps, Wort is moved to Boil kettle and remaining water in HLT becomes sparge water for batch sparge.

I've purchased a second pump and am working on adding Fly Sparge option to MLT.
Wondering if anybody who posted is from Twin Cities and is using automated HERMS system? Would be really grateful to sit in on a brew day and learn a few things about your panel and processes.

 

[BigFloppy]

One thing you could use to minimize initial outlay is get away from the PT100 RTD's and use K thermocouples, it'll save about $100 still be functional and allow you to upgrade to RTD's in the future

 

[BadNewsBrewery]

Some other things to consider - do you really need an on / off switch? Plug it in when you want it on, unplug it when you want it off.

Do you really need a power-on LED? Are the PIDs (assuming you go PID) illuminated - it's on. Are they not? It's off.

Do you really need a volt / amp meter? What are you going to do with that information?

Do you really need an LED that lights up when the element is being fired? The PID has a little integrated LED that lights up when it's firing.

Do you really need a logo or handles?

Heck, you could get by with 1 PID for both the HERMS / HLT and the boil kettle, and just write down what the P/I/D values are for each tank and manually reprogram the PID every time you use it, then you'd only need to switch the wire over to the temp probe from one kettle to the other and plug in the appropriate heating element.

Do you really need switches for pumps? You could just plug them in and unplug them.

Do you really need the ability to disconnect your temp probe from the panel with the fancy XLR connectors, or could you hard wire them in?

Do you really need an emergency stop button, or are you comfortable saying that you'll never need to quickly stop whatever's going wrong, faster than you can unplug the panel?

Do you really need a safe-start interlock that prevents your panel from firing up unless all the elements / pumps are turned off?

Do you really need switches to turn on / off the elements via a contactor or high-amperage switch, or are you comfortable saying that you will ALWAYS unplug the element and set the PID to 0% output when not in use?

That's about the limit of what I can think of for 'optional', though I will point out 2 things. 1 - I have all that junk on my panel and I absoloutely love it... except for the volt / amp meter. 2 - Cutting some things, like the element on / off switches, is cutting out a fairly simple and inexpensive safety redundancy and I would not recommend it.

-Kevin