Very simple brewer..

[Cammanron]

I get the impression issues, like creeping off flavours, for example, are likely down to ignoring good practice. Cutting corners, being lazy and convincing yourself 'it works for me' have a much higher chance of 'something weird' happening. I think if an all-grain brewer is having issues he or she should go out and buy decent extract kit to reality check all-grain 'prowess'.

I never said anything about cutting corners.... just not into doing extra steps that aren't necessary when doing a BIAB.
What people are forgetting about my original post, is that I said I brewed dozens of batches of various styles, without problem.

 

[McMullan]

I never said anything about cutting corners.... just not into doing extra steps that aren't necessary when doing a BIAB.
What people are forgetting about my original post, is that I said I brewed dozens of batches of various styles, without problem.

Sorry, I should have been more clear, I was referring to issues posted generally when things change after initial success. Seriously, though, grab an extract kit and see if the problem persists. It might narrow possibilities down quite a bit. Reading your post again, first time using liquid yeast stands out. Always make a starter with a new pack of liquid/wet yeast. It takes minimal effort to prep a starter, in reality. I'd compare it to making a very simple lunch.

Edit: Sorry, I'm in the middle of a CIP run. Right, stressed yeast, including under pitched yeast, can throw all kinds of 'off' flavours that are difficult to explain.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

One can make good beers with extract, but "on average," not as good as properly executed all grain, for a number of reasons.

So, in your opinion, what would those reasons be?

Off the top...

Off the top ...

- Freshness. Nature designed barley hulls to protect the contents. Staling of extract (including oxidative reactions) begins as soon as it's made. When people talk about making sure to get fresh extract, what they really mean (knowingly or not) is to get the freshest extract possible, i.e. less stale.

Agreed that staling of extract (and malted grains) begins as soon as the ingredient is made.

Can we also agree that, as brewers, we should evaluate the freshness of ingredients we use so that we make the beer we're interested in?

- Color. Example: Try to make a 2 SRM German Pilsner with extract. You might get somewhat close with DME. Maybe. LME? No way.

In competition brewing, German Pilsner (BJCP 2015 2A) has an SRM range of 2-5. With fresh DME/LME, SRM 3 or 4 may be the lower limit. But that's still with competition guidelines for the style.

Beer color is "starting SRM" + SRM additions due to boil + SRM additions during fermentation + SRM additions due to transfers + SRM additions after packaging.

Please don't blame the ingredient ("extract") for darkening due to improper storage, improper wort/beer transfer, or improper beer packaging techniques.

- Limited/Non Availability of extracts made from specific malt types. Limits the styles that can be brewed without having to compromise or having to do mini-mashes, which kind of defeats the purpose (simplicity) of extract brewing.

Sometimes limits create focus. Instead of "fussing" over Maris Otter vs Golden Promise, consider focusing on the best beer possible using light DME.

- No control of wort fermentabilty with extract, i.e. the mash parameters (mash length and temperature) were decided by someone else. And in many cases, they included ~5% carapils in that mash, for our "convenience."

While one has no control over the initial fermentability of an individual ingredient (DME/LME, malts, sugars), there are other ingredients that can be added to the fermenter to adjust the fermentability of the wort. Within the context of "simple brewing", sugar is often used to adjust fermentability.

With regard to "5% carapils", do you have links to product information sheets that show this?

- Water. In some (many?) cases, we don't know what's in a particular extract manufacturer's water, limiting ability to tweak to desired profiles. I know some folks have looked into this aspect, and I admit I haven't kept up, so maybe this is less of a problem nowadays.

It's a "season to taste" approach (no need for a spreadsheet). Adjustments are also brand (Muntons vs Briess vs ...) specific.

 

[VikeMan]

Can we also agree that, as brewers, we should evaluate the freshness of ingredients we use so that we make the beer we're interested in?

Definitely. But starting with extract puts us at a disadvantage in this regard. No extract will be as fresh as the one we can make on brewday.

In competition brewing, German Pilsner (BJCP 2015 2A) has an SRM range of 2-5. With fresh DME/LME, SRM 3 or 4 may be the lower limit. But that's still with competition guidelines for the style.

But if I want to make the lightest possible Pilsner, it's not going to happen with extract. If I have to settle for "within competition guidelines," that's a compromise.

Beer color is "starting SRM" + SRM additions due to boil + SRM additions during fermentation + SRM additions due to transfers + SRM additions after packaging.

Please don't blame the ingredient ("extract") for darkening due to improper storage, improper wort/beer transfer, or improper beer packaging techniques.

I won't blame extract for improper handling or improper use. But I do blame it for starting off darker than a wort I can make with an all grain mash.

Sometimes limits create focus. Instead of "fussing" over Maris Otter vs Golden Promise, consider focusing on the best beer possible using light DME.

You say focus. I say compromise.

While one has no control over the initial fermentability of an individual ingredient (DME/LME, malts, sugars), there are other ingredients that can be added to the fermenter to adjust the fermentability of the wort. Within the context of "simple brewing", sugar is often used to adjust fermentability.

I guess. But other things, like proteins, are also affected by mash parameters. Adding sugars (or maltodextrin, or whatever) won't affect that. For example, I've adopted a glycoprotein rest for foam positive proteins. I guess I should have mentioned proteins before.

With regard to "5% carapils", do you have links to product information sheets that show this?

I can't remember which manufacturer(s) were doing 5%. It's been a long time. But I just looked up Briess, and they are doing 1%.
https://www.brewingwithbriess.com/products/extracts/

It's a "season to taste" approach (no need for a spreadsheet). Adjustments are also brand (Muntons vs Briess vs ...) specific.

Fair enough.

 

[hottpeper13]

OP stated "Iv'e made dozens of beers then this off flavor". CLEAN YOUR VALVES! The bottling wand spring and valve seat will get a gunk buildup. also crap gets behind the nylon washer on ball valves,that's why the butterfly valve is so popular. Also the one on the bucket comes apart. If you see any brown gunk on any of these you have found your issue.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

the top NHC beer in 2021 was an extract beer, and there was much hoopla about that

There are a number of things in that recipe (link) that are different than a "typical" extract based recipe:

• starter using dry yeast (34/70)
• 60 min boil with first hop addition "@ 45"
• four additional items for clarity & yeast health
• soft (low mineral content) municipal water with additional CaCl
• a detailed fermentation and packaging plan

... so some hoopla awareness of the recipe seems appropriate; and perhaps worthy of more discussion in appropriate sections of HomeBrewTalk.

 

[DBhomebrew]

Also the one on the bucket comes apart.

How?!

 

[RM-MN]

How?!

Pour some hot water on the body of the spigot to soften the plastic, then press the end of the valve against something solid and it will pop right out.

 

[DBhomebrew]

Pour some hot water on the body of the spigot to soften the plastic, then press the end of the valve against something solid and it will pop right out.

Thanks! I'll give it a try.

 

[corkybstewart]

I brewed 10 gallons of a pale ale many years ago with WLP 007 that tasted like bandaids smell. I turned one keg into malt vinegar and forgot the other keg for a year, When I tapped it it was delicious-I just needed enough time to let the yeast settle out completely