Verdant IPA vs London iii krausen and attenuation

[Shenanigans]

I don't feel like many English strains are very forgiving of temp in general BUT luckily your 18c basement sounds perfect for most American and English strains. I'm willing to bet it's as forgiving as 007. Maybe even more if the temp gets too low (007 stalled once or twice during cold spells in the past). I say go for it

Really wish there was a dry 007 now that you mentioned it haha

OK thanks, I'll give it go.
Yeah I made one of my best beers ever, a London Porter, with WLP007 and no temperature control.
My basement stays consistenly at this temperature the whole year round except if we have an extended heatwave in the Summer then it can go up to about 22.

 

[tyrub42]

A few new things to note on this thread:

-the brown ale is all conditioned, tasting great, and I don't think I'd be able to pick between Verdant and London iii in it.

-A couple of friends made an NEIPA with this yeast (actually named it after me which is a pretty big honor, although maybe I'm too sentimental lol). I made one with London iii and we drank both side-by-side. The hop bills were different but somewhat similar (they did sultana and citra with some cascade, and I did BRU-1 accented with Citra and a little Sabro), hop rates were the same, and malt bills were almost identical (I helped with the malt bill and hops, which is why they named it haha). Drinking them side-by-side, there were some differences in things like hop aroma/flavor, hopburn, etc, but the yeast character was incredibly similar between them, and I would have guessed it was a London iii beer if I didn't know about Verdant.

I'm already pretty comfortable saying there is no longer a need to seek out London iii if it's inconvenient to get, and living outside of the US, that is so great!

Still brewing some Verdant hop bombs in a few weeks. Will update when I do

 

[tyrub42]

Doing the Verdant hazies tomorrow. Very excited. Expect an update in about 3 weeks

 

[couchsending]

You can get LAIII over 80% with some step mashing or a long rest at 149 and a bit of sugar. 76% without the sugar. It also benefits from more O2 than normal. You’ll see better attenuation and quicker fermentation with more o2. Bigger pitch rates will help that too. It will also make pretty good pseudo lagers at 54/55 with a lager like pitch rate.

I think both Verdant and LAIII mute hops a bit. Yes they’re nice and fruity but hop character seems to not come through quite as well as Conan. Verdant definitely has that vanilla/creamy character that’s awesome especially for darker roastier beers.

I like soft beer but hate sweet beer. LAIII is not my favorite for hoppy beers for this reason. Leaves everything too sweet even when it does attenuate. Blending it with Conan is a great way to go. And that’s easy with Lallemand New England which is the dried form of Conan. Add one pack of Verdant and one pack of New England and you’ll get a little better attenuation and a bit better overall hop presence. Just my 2 cents.

 

[HopsAreGood]

You can get LAIII over 80% with some step mashing or a long rest at 149 and a bit of sugar. 76% without the sugar. It also benefits from more O2 than normal. You’ll see better attenuation and quicker fermentation with more o2. Bigger pitch rates will help that too. It will also make pretty good pseudo lagers at 54/55 with a lager like pitch rate.

I think both Verdant and LAIII mute hops a bit. Yes they’re nice and fruity but hop character seems to not come through quite as well as Conan. Verdant definitely has that vanilla/creamy character that’s awesome especially for darker roastier beers.

I like soft beer but hate sweet beer. LAIII is not my favorite for hoppy beers for this reason. Leaves everything too sweet even when it does attenuate. Blending it with Conan is a great way to go. And that’s easy with Lallemand New England which is the dried form of Conan. Add one pack of Verdant and one pack of New England and you’ll get a little better attenuation and a bit better overall hop presence. Just my 2 cents.

I just did exactly that on my latest batch. Citra Lupomax/Galaxy....pitched one pack of verdant and one pack of the New England. Day 1: 68 Day 2: 69 Day 3: 70 Day 4: 71 Day 5-7: 72 Day 8: removed heat Day 9-10: 60 Day 11: transfer to dry hop keg.

1.070 - 1.014. 80% attenuation.

The beer is soft but not sweet, and the hops definitely come through nicely.

 

[tyrub42]

You can get LAIII over 80% with some step mashing or a long rest at 149 and a bit of sugar. 76% without the sugar. It also benefits from more O2 than normal. You’ll see better attenuation and quicker fermentation with more o2. Bigger pitch rates will help that too. It will also make pretty good pseudo lagers at 54/55 with a lager like pitch rate.

I think both Verdant and LAIII mute hops a bit. Yes they’re nice and fruity but hop character seems to not come through quite as well as Conan. Verdant definitely has that vanilla/creamy character that’s awesome especially for darker roastier beers.

I like soft beer but hate sweet beer. LAIII is not my favorite for hoppy beers for this reason. Leaves everything too sweet even when it does attenuate. Blending it with Conan is a great way to go. And that’s easy with Lallemand New England which is the dried form of Conan. Add one pack of Verdant and one pack of New England and you’ll get a little better attenuation and a bit better overall hop presence. Just my 2 cents.

I definitely prefer Conan but love both. Conan is a bit better in attenuation and overall fruitiness like you said, plus it doesn't do that giant Krausen thing that London iii does. I feel like London iii leaves a little better mouthfeel, though, which is definitely a plus. Verdant is supposedly a little fruitier than stock London iii, but so far I haven't been able to tell much of a difference there (only made one beer with it, though).

My problem with Conan is just that it's pretty inconsistent generation to generation. London iii is so steady and dependable. That said, now that both are available dry, Verdant seems to be the one to get (but will likely be messing around a bit with the dry Conan just to see how it is).

Did two beers today with the Verdant. Both were mashed low, and the DIPA has sugar in it, so hopefully they do their job well.

Generally I just pitch like 10 percent Nottingham with London iii and then get Nottingham attenuation, but it's nice to not have to bother with that on these beers.

 

[couchsending]

The dried Conan is not that great. The cell count is pretty low per gram. But mixing it so you end up 70/30 is nice.

There are definitely different sources for VT Ale that work better than others.

 

[HopsAreGood]

The dried Conan is not that great. The cell count is pretty low per gram. But mixing it so you end up 70/30 is nice.

There are definitely different sources for VT Ale that work better than others.

I used the Lallemand pitch rate calculator, fully aware that the cell count in the New England is woefully low, and determined that (according to the calculator) 1 pack of verdant is suggested to be good for 2/3 of a 5 gallon batch of 1.070 wort, and 1 pack of the New England is suggested to be good for 1/3 of a 5 gallon batch of 1.070 wort. So pitching 1 pack of each results in about 2/3 verdant and 1/3 Conan. Obviously there are many factors that come into play but I used that rough estimate and am very pleased with the results.

 

[tyrub42]

I used the Lallemand pitch rate calculator, fully aware that the cell count in the New England is woefully low, and determined that (according to the calculator) 1 pack of verdant is suggested to be good for 2/3 of a 5 gallon batch of 1.070 wort, and 1 pack of the New England is suggested to be good for 1/3 of a 5 gallon batch of 1.070 wort. So pitching 1 pack of each results in about 2/3 verdant and 1/3 Conan. Obviously there are many factors that come into play but I used that rough estimate and am very pleased with the results.

Interesting! Not the cheapest route but that blend could end up being the best of both worlds!

 

[tyrub42]

Verdant generation two doesn't seem any less crazy than gen 1. DIPA was looking restrained throughout yesterday, today at noon it was still doing great (26.5 liters of in a 30.5 liter fermenter, still had 2+ liters of headspace at noon). Just got home from work (8pm) and it has blown off like mad. The cup of starsan had an extra 150-200ml in it compared to when I left for work and was almost full already . I changed the starsan and added a bunch of fermcap mixed with a ml of starsan down the blow-off tube into the fermenter. For now it has stopped blowing off but I think I'll be coming home to this for 2 or 3 more days haha.

Pale ale had coconut in the whirlpool so there's a bit of oil keeping the Krausen in check...for now. Honestly this is probably even crazier than London iii. Thank God it makes such great beer or it wouldn't be worth it

 

[tyrub42]

Quick update. Final gravities have been reached. The DIPA with a significant dextrose addition (I think roughly 8 percent) hit 86 percent attenuation. The pale ale, once I subtracted the lactose points from the og and fg numbers, hit 84 percent without any sugar additions. Mashed low on both but even so, I've never had London iii attenuate like this. Flavor is great on both. Is it fruitier than London iii? I want to say yes but it would be irresponsible of me. With the amount of hops (and fruit in the pale) in these beers, I don't really think I'd be able to perceive subtle differences in the yeasts flavor profile. Even so, generation 2 really took off and got nice and aggressive with the attenuation. Krausen still a nightmare but in the pale with coconut and lime, it was restrained by the coconut oil haha. DIPA blew right through its headspace until I added even more fermcap (and even then idk if it did anything or if it just stopped attenuating). Anyway, good stuff!

 

[tyrub42]

Final verdict on this yeast:

The good:

-ester profile and mouthfeel are as good or better than London iii
-attenuates better than London iii
-seemingly better haze retention than London iii (if that's something you feel is important)
-reliable through at least two generations

The bad:

-krausen is actually crazier than London iii imo
-less consistent attenuation between two generations compared to London iii
-low cell count and high price compared with other dry yeast (but better than liquid)

Unknown:

-performance across several generations
-bottle conditioning ability without adding other yeast (I always add some t58 now)

Overall it's a winner bit I don't think I'll ever have a batch that doesn't blower off

 

[Northern_Brewer]

That's not a barm, this is a barm (on a Yorkshire Square of Taddy Porter at Sam Smith's). British ale yeasts are meant to be top-fermenting.

 

[tyrub42]

That's not a barm, this is a barm (on a Yorkshire Square of Taddy Porter at Sam Smith's). British ale yeasts are meant to be top-fermenting.
View attachment 725847

Haha yup that's that cheese cake Krausen! I mean, it's common, sure, but I don't really think that English strains are broken if they don't Krausen like maniacs (007, Conan, etc). On my end I just dislike it because it's less beer per batch and also more headspace, which I haven't had a problem with, but is not something I like if I can avoid it

 

[tyrub42]

Actually interesting you posted taddy porter. I coincidentally tried it for the first time a few months ago. The bottle ended up being 5 years old by chance and seemed to have been stored pretty well. Tasted really nice with the age on it, although I'd like to try it fresh as well

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Haha yup that's that cheese cake Krausen! I mean, it's common, sure, but I don't really think that English strains are broken if they don't Krausen like maniacs (007, Conan, etc).

Any yeast you see in traditional British breweries will look like that - the ones that have adapted to continuous/conical fermenters like Whitbread B are super-domesticated in a way that reminds me of Chihuahuas - your ancestors were wolves and you've evolved...to this?

It's another example of how the US yeast labs distort people's idea of "normality" for British yeasts - I think most US homebrewers would be startled to know how many British yeasts are phenolic, as the yeast labs have carefully selected ones that aren't and present that as "normal".

 

[day_trippr]

[...]the ones that have adapted to continuous/conical fermenters like Whitbread B are super-domesticated in a way that reminds me of Chihuahuas - your ancestors were wolves and you've evolved...to this?[...]

Hahahaha! Hilarious yeast jokes are rare. That's a good 'un!

Cheers!

 

[mcleanmj]

A little late to the party, but I wanted to share my experience. I've been on a big NEIPA kick lately, and so far I've tried: London Ale iii, Imperial Juice, White Labs Coastal Haze, Escarpment Labs Foggy London Ale, Voss Kviek, and Verdant IPA. Verdant has been my favorite. Haze, mouthfeel, and residual sweetness are all spot on and I get extreme mango juice vibes. I bottle my beers, and (the horror) had a bottle get knocked over and break in my bathroom. It smelled like mango juice for a week. Strangely, I've gotten strong apricot from LAiii and more mango/pineapple from Verdant, despite the reputation for apricot from Verdant. I've got an oat cream hazy fermenting right now with Verdant and I grabbed a gravity sample yesterday and its looking like a pineapple/mango bomb. Anyway, can't complain about the convenience of dry yeast. That said, I got slightly lower attenuation than estimated with Verdant and had similar experiences, fast take off and then slow chugging at the end.

 

[tyrub42]

A little late to the party, but I wanted to share my experience. I've been on a big NEIPA kick lately, and so far I've tried: London Ale iii, Imperial Juice, White Labs Coastal Haze, Escarpment Labs Foggy London Ale, Voss Kviek, and Verdant IPA. Verdant has been my favorite. Haze, mouthfeel, and residual sweetness are all spot on and I get extreme mango juice vibes. I bottle my beers, and (the horror) had a bottle get knocked over and break in my bathroom. It smelled like mango juice for a week. Strangely, I've gotten strong apricot from LAiii and more mango/pineapple from Verdant, despite the reputation for apricot from Verdant. I've got an oat cream hazy fermenting right now with Verdant and I grabbed a gravity sample yesterday and its looking like a pineapple/mango bomb. Anyway, can't complain about the convenience of dry yeast. That said, I got slightly lower attenuation than estimated with Verdant and had similar experiences, fast take off and then slow chugging at the end.

Agree about the awesomeness of Verdant, although I've noticed far fewer differences compared to London iii. The differences I definitely noticed were a krausen that was somehow even larger than London iii, much better haze stability, and better attenuation. I think I noticed a fruitier ester profile but it was tough to tell side by side, and, for me, I don't think it'd be noticeable in a NEIPA full of pungent fruity hops.

One thing about Verdant that I did not get from London iii, though, is inconsistent attenuation. Verdant seems to get much more aggressive in generation 2 and attenuation was way higher (I'd have to check specifics but the end result was probably 2-4 gravity points further than expected). I don't mind that, but I do appreciate London iii consistency.

Overall, if I didn't already have a new pack of London iii in the fridge I may never bother with it again, as I liked Verdant so much and where I live, liquid is a twice a year event and costs are at least doubled (I paid like 16 bucks for a pack of Roeselare last winter...well worth it for the trouble it takes to get it here, but damn...)