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Verdant IPA vs London iii krausen and attenuation

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tyrub42

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I've heard Verdant IPA yeast is essentially a mutated form on London iii and I'm excited to use it. Just wondering, from anyone with decent amounts of experience with both:

-Is the Krausen similar? Heard it's crazy with Verdant, but it's also pretty crazy with London iii. Basically if I plan headspace to accommodate London iii should I be fine with Verdant as well?

-Is attenuation the same with both strains? If not, is Verdant typically higher or lower attenuating?

About to get a pack of Verdant IPA yeast and planning to do quite a few test batches in the next month or two. Pretty exciting stuff.

Cheers 🍻🍻🍻
 

beervoid

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tyrub42

tyrub42

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Yup read that thread, and the others. Looking for feedback from people who have used both and can compare directly. Attenuation reports are all over the place. Krausen is supposed to be huge but so is London iii so looking to see if it's similar or even crazier
 

HopsAreGood

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Yup read that thread, and the others. Looking for feedback from people who have used both and can compare directly. Attenuation reports are all over the place. Krausen is supposed to be huge but so is London iii so looking to see if it's similar or even crazier
I would imagine they’re very similar. If you’ve read that thread then you know Verdant “should” attenuate slightly more than LA3, but many factors come into play as evidenced by the mixed results people have seen. I’d also imagine the massive krausen is probably extremely similar. I just purchased 4 packs of the verdant yeast and will be using them in the near future. I’ve used LA3 a bunch so I’ll be able to see how they stack up in the near future.

I’ll also add that while I love the end result LA3 gives, I don’t really love how it performs. It tends to take a while to completely finish even though it starts out strong...I often have to swirl my fermenter to get it going again as it seems to crap out around 1.020 - 1.022... and yes I’m completely aware the expected attenuation is only 71-75%. The krausen, while cool to look at, is actually pretty annoying. Sticks around forever and usually never really drops. Other yeasts have nice compact krausens that drop perfectly and are a non factor. S-04 for example tends to have about an inch of white krausen, that quickly disappears as if it was never even there. The 5-8 inches of brown crusty mess that never disappears from
LA3 is just annoying.

I’ll let you know any differences I see after I’ve used the verdant a few times.
 
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day_trippr

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I love 1318 LA3 in spite of its frequent drama shows. I brewed two neipas four days apart and even running the yeast at 64°F wort temperature it's always "fun" keeping the beer in the carboys. The earlier pair on the left almost blew foam - got right up in the neck before it finally calmed down - but the second pair obviously spewed a bit...

neipas_27jan2021.jpg


Makes for a bit of a challenge when using the fermentation gases to purge kegs. If they don't make it the whole way through fermentation without having to be cleaned or reconfigured then that pair of kegs will require a Star San purge...

Cheers!
 
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tyrub42

tyrub42

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I would imagine they’re very similar. If you’ve read that thread then you know Verdant “should” attenuate slightly more than LA3, but many factors come into play as evidenced by the mixed results people have seen. I’d also imagine the massive krausen is probably extremely similar. I just purchased 4 packs of the verdant yeast and will be using them in the near future. I’ve used LA3 a bunch so I’ll be able to see how they stack up in the near future.

I’ll also add that while I love the end result LA3 gives, I don’t really love how it performs. It tends to take a while to completely finish even though it starts out strong...I often have to swirl my fermenter to get it going again as it seems to crap out around 1.020 - 1.022... and yes I’m completely aware the expected attenuation is only 71-75%. The krausen, while cool to look at, is actually pretty annoying. Sticks around forever and usually never really drops. Other yeasts have nice compact krausens that drop perfectly and are a non factor. S-04 for example tends to have about an inch of white krausen, that quickly disappears as if it was never even there. The 5-8 inches of brown crusty mess that never disappears from
LA3 is just annoying.

I’ll let you know any differences I see after I’ve used the verdant a few times.
Interesting, I've always found LAiii to be really reliable and haven't had any problems finishing quickly or attenuating consistently. Actually the main reason I use it over Conan is because Conan gets really finicky and can stall or get a bit unpredictable in performance. Didn't realize people were having those issues with LAiii as well. My only issues with it have been the giant Krausen and the relatively low attenuation. I started cutting it with like 20 percent Nottingham which helps both problems, but I will probably give this Verdant an honest try without anything added to see how it goes. Thanks a lot! Hopefully we both see good results from it 🍻
 

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The "second generation" of my verdant seems to produce less krausen, at least the two last brews I made, reusing slurry, had less and also dropped much better.
 
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The "second generation" of my verdant seems to produce less krausen, at least the two last brews I made, reusing slurry, had less and also dropped much better.
That's great info, thanks! Was attenuation about the same in both generations? Any experience with London iii that you could compare with? This is perfect because my first batch will be a brown ale from which I'll harvest enough slurry for 3-4 more batches afterwards. Thanks for sharing your experience 🍻🍻🍻
 

schmurf

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That's great info, thanks! Was attenuation about the same in both generations? Any experience with London iii that you could compare with? This is perfect because my first batch will be a brown ale from which I'll harvest enough slurry for 3-4 more batches afterwards. Thanks for sharing your experience 🍻🍻🍻
It's been a while since I used wy1318 but to my memory they behaved pretty similar even if I can't recall having this kind of persistent krausen on 1318. My attenuation on verdant haven't been poor, mostly in the 75 I think. I need to check my notes though, will do it when I'm at home.
 
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tyrub42

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Just wanted to give a quick update here from my experience with Verdant so far. For the record I made a starter and pitched it into 26.5 liters of wort in a 30.5 liter carboy.

First off the beer isn't bottled, but it's been 9 days since it was pitched, and it seems to be done. I'll update again if there are any changes.

So far it has attenuated similarly to London iii, the overall ester profile is very similar to London iii to the point where I'm not sure if I'd be able to tell a difference if served blind, and the Krausen was even crazier than London iii. It blew off despite a relatively low OG, liberal fermcap, and 4 liters of head space.

Current plans are to do a NEDIPA and a pale ale with it next. I may add some Nottingham to help it behave a bit, but if I don't, I'll update on any changes. For now, it's amazing that this is available as a dry yeast, and it should sub directly for London iii without any problems.

Cheers 🍻
 

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I have a batch fermenting right now that is on its seventh day. The OG was 1.076 and it’s currently down to 1.020 which is about 73% attenuation. It is still bubbling slowly and there’s about 2 inches of krausen left. I used two packs and did not rehydrate. At its peak The krausen Was not as high as I have experienced with London Ale 3 but was still very similar and larger than most other yeasts. The smell is very nice and I have high hopes for the final product. I’ll probably leave it for a few more days to make sure it’s done and clean up if it needs to.
 

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I've got my first brew with Verdant in the fermenter right now, and I honestly was about to ask if people have seen the krausen not drop, so this is a super helpful thread. I typically use S-04, and after seeing what a mess Verdant has made I'm probably going to go back unless this beer tastes like it was a gift from the gods.

Started out at 1.077 Sunday, and it took off like a rocket after 3 days of fermentation it's at 1.021, and since then has dropped about a point a day. S-04 would have been ready to bottle by now, but this guy still has a big krausen, and seems to still be going after the sugars.
 
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tyrub42

tyrub42

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I've got my first brew with Verdant in the fermenter right now, and I honestly was about to ask if people have seen the krausen not drop, so this is a super helpful thread. I typically use S-04, and after seeing what a mess Verdant has made I'm probably going to go back unless this beer tastes like it was a gift from the gods.

Started out at 1.077 Sunday, and it took off like a rocket after 3 days of fermentation it's at 1.021, and since then has dropped about a point a day. S-04 would have been ready to bottle by now, but this guy still has a big krausen, and seems to still be going after the sugars.
Yeah haha the Krausen is definitely still there on mine, too, and doesn't seem like it'll be going anywhere until the cold crash.

Have you found your attenuation to be similar to 04?
 

iamninjabob

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I would say so, but S-04 is a bit faster. Verdant seemed to race to ~1.020 then just kinda got lazy. It's down to 1.018 so about 75%? S-04 is just so consistent and quick though.

Also! the krausen messes with my Tilt hydromer readings and it's bugging the crap out of me that I cant get a consistent gravity reading.
 

HopsAreGood

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I would say so, but S-04 is a bit faster. Verdant seemed to race to ~1.020 then just kinda got lazy. It's down to 1.018 so about 75%? S-04 is just so consistent and quick though.

Also! the krausen messes with my Tilt hydromer readings and it's bugging the crap out of me that I cant get a consistent gravity reading.
I wish the verdant/LA3 performed like s-04 does. For me it’s almost always done in about three days. The krausen is small and drops like a brick to the bottom of the fermenter. It’s just so fast and consistent. I’m contemplating co pitching s-04 and verdant to see if I can get the best of both worlds.
 

iamninjabob

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Oh that's a good idea! I might steal that one for my next hazy. I've asked all the local breweries around me and almost all of them seem to use S-04 in their hazy's. They have told me they just like how consistent S-04 is which I agree with from my experiences with it. Not to mention how forgiving it's temperature range is since I don't have a fermentation fridge.
 

HopsAreGood

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Oh that's a good idea! I might steal that one for my next hazy. I've asked all the local breweries around me and almost all of them seem to use S-04 in their hazy's. They have told me they just like how consistent S-04 is which I agree with from my experiences with it. Not to mention how forgiving it's temperature range is since I don't have a fermentation fridge.
I have to say, the one thing that s-04 typically gets criticized for is that it’s very finicky regarding temperatures. Many people can’t stand it over about 66 degrees. I’ve always kept it around 64-66 during fermentation without any issues. Some people also feel like it has a distinct “twang” to it but I’ve never tasted that either. Anyway, I’m definitely going to mix the two yeasts in the near future, maybe not quite 50/50 but something fairly close. Maybe 60/40.
 

iamninjabob

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Yeahhhhhhh I tend to ferment S-04 at like 66-70ish because I love the ester profile. I actually have a little experiment going with some mead and some S-04. The last sample I took tasted crazy fruity for nothing more than honey, water, and S-04.
 

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the second pair obviously spewed a bit...
Cheers!
This is somewhat off topic but related to the big krausen is part of the discussion. @day_trippr What is that contraption in the lower left of this picture? It is intended to harvest yeast or just catch gunk? If it was clean to start with it looks like a kind of sealed top cropping mechanism. I assume the smaller tube going the the back of the fermentation chamber goes into some kind of airlock?
1613169754516.png
 

day_trippr

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Ah - that is my "krausen katcher" for use with my keg purging system :)
I use that with the two carboy caps when a fermentation is threatening to spew.
Otherwise - for less threatening fermentations - I use a pair of universal bungs with stem adapters with the EVABarrier tubing - that set up is shown inside the left fridge.

In either case they get routed through a bulkhead in the back then around to a daisy-chained pair of 5g kegs...

Cheers!
 

tld6008

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I love 1318 LA3 in spite of its frequent drama shows. I brewed two neipas four days apart and even running the yeast at 64°F wort temperature it's always "fun" keeping the beer in the carboys. The earlier pair on the left almost blew foam - got right up in the neck before it finally calmed down - but the second pair obviously spewed a bit...

View attachment 716143

Makes for a bit of a challenge when using the fermentation gases to purge kegs. If they don't make it the whole way through fermentation without having to be cleaned or reconfigured then that pair of kegs will require a Star San purge...

Cheers!
Are those 7 gal carboys? I assume you cold crash, what is your setup for that? How did that Julius ll turn out?
 

day_trippr

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6.5 gallon Italians :)

Yes, I do crash, sometimes soft first. I use a fixed, cheap BBQ propane regulator (~ 0.4 psi) as a "secondary regulator" downstream of a primary reg with the gear shown here. The balloons are fail-safe pneumatic fuses from back when I used the primary alone as the regulator is a touchy bastid at sub-1 psi settings and I didn't want to wake up one day to an exploded carboy.

That was a pita that led me to my current BBQ reg solution which has been flawless. I should get rid of those balloons one of these days :)

1613230174879.png


I've done 11 batches of my ersatz Julius so clearly it has something going for it :)

Cheers!
 

tld6008

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I like it! Do you have the Julius recipe anywhere on the board? I have made 3 batches but not haveing tasted a real one didn't know what to expect, they were pretty good but inconsistent. Used the common 3 yeast combo.
 

tld6008

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I was somewhat active on Marshall's site in 2018. Did you ever use his yeast combo? I might try it again with pilsner malt and Verdant dry yeast. I was never able to get my Ca down to 20ppm like he recommends and mine always finished at .009. Any tips would be welcome 😁
 

day_trippr

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There is an epic thread here on HBT on the whole Tree House yeast mix thing from which that Marshall gleaned his yeast strains (even says so). I actually don't prefer a hefe character, banana or not, in this beer, but do enjoy what 1318 brings to the party - the opposite of dryness :)

Most of my 1318 neipas finish in the high teens - 1.017 is pretty typical - which adds to the soft character...

Cheers!
 
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tyrub42

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Bottled the brown ale a few days ago. Overall I'd say I can notice that the yeast is slightly fruitier than regular London iii but not in a way that clashes with traditional styles. Mouthfeel is yet to be determined but I'm expecting it to be as good as London iii. Flavor and aroma, while I did end up noticing a slightly fruitier profile, were almost the same as London iii and very well suited to classic English styles (so this yeast is very versatile just like London iii). That said, I'm very excited to whip up some hoppy beers with it and see how it performs. A few friends just kegged an NEIPA with it and are loving it.

The brown ale I made will be carbed in a couple of days and I'll update on any extra notes from it. Not a traditional British Brown since it has some lactose plus coffee and cinnamon, but the base beer is very much a traditional British Brown and this is definitely the only dry yeast I've used that I have been happy with in a British style ale.
 

Shenanigans

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Sounds very promising indeed.
If this yeast very forgiving of fermentation temperature?
I have a temperature control fridge but normally brew 3 or 4 beers on a brew day and can only fit one in the fridge.
So I'm always looking for strain that I can just let go on it's own in a 18oC (64F) basement. Like US-05 or WLP007.
So I guess at high krausen it would be about 20 or 21oC (68 to 70F).
I know it will taste different than at a few degrees lower but would it be different in a bad way?
In a NEIPA I probably wouldnt even notice it with all the fruity hops but I would also like to try it in a british ale.
 
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tyrub42

tyrub42

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Sounds very promising indeed.
If this yeast very forgiving of fermentation temperature?
I have a temperature control fridge but normally brew 3 or 4 beers on a brew day and can only fit one in the fridge.
So I'm always looking for strain that I can just let go on it's own in a 18oC (64F) basement. Like US-05 or WLP007.
So I guess at high krausen it would be about 20 or 21oC (68 to 70F).
I know it will taste different than at a few degrees lower but would it be different in a bad way?
In a NEIPA I probably wouldnt even notice it with all the fruity hops but I would also like to try it in a british ale.
I don't feel like many English strains are very forgiving of temp in general BUT luckily your 18c basement sounds perfect for most American and English strains. I'm willing to bet it's as forgiving as 007. Maybe even more if the temp gets too low (007 stalled once or twice during cold spells in the past). I say go for it 🍻🍻🍻

Really wish there was a dry 007 now that you mentioned it haha
 

Shenanigans

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I don't feel like many English strains are very forgiving of temp in general BUT luckily your 18c basement sounds perfect for most American and English strains. I'm willing to bet it's as forgiving as 007. Maybe even more if the temp gets too low (007 stalled once or twice during cold spells in the past). I say go for it 🍻🍻🍻

Really wish there was a dry 007 now that you mentioned it haha
OK thanks, I'll give it go.
Yeah I made one of my best beers ever, a London Porter, with WLP007 and no temperature control.
My basement stays consistenly at this temperature the whole year round except if we have an extended heatwave in the Summer then it can go up to about 22.
 
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