Using extra wort as a starter in the future - a couple of questions

[lhommedieu]

I'd like to use wort as a starter for future brews and plan to pressure-can it in quart jars. A couple of questions:

Should I dilute the wort with sterile water to bring the SG down to 1.040? This is the SG that I've read is optimum for starters.

If this is the case, is there a formula that one could use, e.g., ___ ml of wort at 1.058 plus ___ ml of sterile water equals ___ SG?

 

[kombat]

Should I dilute the wort with sterile water to bring the SG down to 1.040?

Yes. But it doesn't need to be sterile water, just use plain old water and do it before it goes into the pressure canner. It will be sterilized in there.

If this is the case, is there a formula that one could use, e.g., ___ ml of wort at 1.058 plus ___ ml of sterile water equals ___ SG?

It's simple algebra. You know how much wort you have and what it's S.G. is, and you know the desired S.G. of the final volume of wort. There's only one variable.

(2000 + x) mL * 1.040 = 2000 mL * 1.058 + x mL * 1.000

Solve for x.

2080 + 1.040x = 2116 + x
-36 + 0.040x = 0
0.040x = 36
x = 900

So you'd add 900 mL of plain 1.000 water.

 

[jleiii]

I've been using the leftover wort for starters, and continuers quite nicely.
When I finish my batch and pitch my yeast, I take the flask with a small amount of yeast residue, and add the leftover wort to it, and grow up the small amount, then crash, decant the liquid, add a smidgen of sterile water (1/2 pint canning jars), suck it up with a syringe, put it into 35ml bottle pre-forms, and pop it in the yeast fridge for the next time. I call this the continuer. If I don't have any leftover wort, I break out a pre-made jar. This is frequently the case.

I use DME as well, and usually do 6 or 7 jars at a time, including wheat DME for the Hefe's.

 

[lhommedieu]

Thanks for your responses. I've got 4 vials of White Labs 802 at 43% viability, and figure I can step it up 3x to reach my cell count for a brew on Sunday after next. For this brew, I'll use DME for my starter, and then use my next wort as a foundation for my next starter.

This is the procedure that I'm going to follow, in the future, for 10 gallon batches of lager*. It may seem a little OCD, but I find that it helps because I'm not an analytic thinker. Suggestions and corrections are appreciated.

Using Wort to Make a Starter

Step 1.

1. Plan for an extra gallon of wort in the batch.
2, As the boil is completing and you have cooled a sample and tested for OG, remove a gallon of wort (3785.41 mL) from the boil.
3. Use the formula to determine how much water to add to bring the SG down to 1.040*.
4. Mix the wort and water in a clean two-gallon container.
5. Place wort in 800 mL mason jars and pressure can them at 15 psi for 20 minutes.*
6. Let cool and label jars. Store in a cool, dark place until needed.

Step 2

1. Sterilize a 5L flask and foam stopper: put 2000 mL of water in the flask, put on a foam stopper, bring the water to a boil, and boil for at least 10 minutes.
3. Cool down the flask and remove the water.
4. Add wort to flask as determined by a yeast starter calculator.
5. Add yeast to flask and use stir plate to keep yeast in suspension.
6. After 24-48 hours, cold crash yeast for at least two days*.
7. Decant yeast and repeat above as necessary.

Notes:

1. I also plan to make some starter wort out of DME, and have it on hand, just in case I need to step up my yeast 3x instead of 2x.

2. I would use the formula provided above as follows, assuming an OG of 1.058:

(3785 + x) mL * 1.040 = 3785 mL * 1.058 + x mL * 1.000

Solve for x.

3936 + 1.040x = 4004 + x
-68+ 0.040x = 0
0.040x = 68
x = 2720

Adding 2720 mL of plain 1.000 water to 3785 mL of 1.058 wort, yields 6505 mL of 1.040 wort, or enough to fill 8 large mason jars.

3. Make sure the yeast has fallen to the bottom of the flask, and that there is a clear demarcation between the yeast and wort, before you decant. I find that this takes longer using a lager yeast.

4. If using DME, bring water in container to boil, reduce to simmer, and then add DME while stirring until it dissolves. If you add DME to cold water and then attempt to pressure can, it may clump up. Add hot wort with dissolved DME to mason jars, and can as per usual.

5. Pressure cookers have different designs. Most pressure cooker manufacturers instruct you to vent for 10 minutes before adding the weight (if you have an old weighted release valve). But my old Mirro pressure cooker has a release valve on the side, so the procedure is to add the weight from the beginning, turn the heat on high, and wait for the pressure to build. Once the weight starts rattling, reduce the heat so that it rattles intermittently, and start timing from that point.

6. 1.040 is the high end of an SG for a starter. It can be anywhere from 1.030 to 1.040. Higher than 1.040 and you run the risk of stressing the yeast.

 

[kombat]

Looks good, get to it! Take some pictures and give us an update when it's done.

 

[lhommedieu]

Looks good, get to it! Take some pictures and give us an update when it's done.

No problem. I'd like to document the process and work out any wrinkles that ensue. Thanks for the equation; my wife, the college biology major and psychology Ph.D. just laughed at me when I tried to solve it. I took me about 10 minutes to remember my high school algebra; she solved it in less than a minute, lol.

 

[lhommedieu]

OK - speaking of wrinkles, the following happened. First I tried making wort using DME and cold water, figuring that I'd bring it to a boil in the canner. The DME seemed to dissolve but after pressure canning it there were clumps all over. I threw it out and started over by bringing water to a boil and adding DME a little at time and stirring vigorously. That worked well. I added some water to the wort to bring the SG down to 1.038. I pressure canned it and let it cool overnight. I brought 2000 mL of water to a boil in the flask and let that cool overnight as well. I decanted the yeast that I had in the fridge (this was going to be the second step of a three-step starter) and added the yeast slurry and the cooled wort to sterile flask. Mistake: by the time I was done I had 4500 mL of starter - because I'd forgotten to throw out the sterile water in the flask.

What, me worry? I figured a few drops of fermcap would take care of it. Mistake #2. I left the house for a few hours and this is what I came back to:

I ended up cleaning up and re-sanitizing the flask and sanitized a smaller flask to take some of the starter. So far, so good:

So, I've learned to keep my starter at about 3200 mL, because the process seems to be working.

 

[Singletrack]

Nice procedure. One comment: It looks like you are boiling 2 liters of water in your flask just to sanitize it, then throwing out that water? That will work, but it seems you could boil a lot less to accomplish the same thing. Boil 500 mL with foil on the top. Or, rinse the flask with a little Star San and avoid that step entirely.

Thanks for sharing mistakes, too. The best way to learn is from the mistakes of others.

 

[lhommedieu]

That's a good point. I chose the 2000 mL level as a safety measure to avoid dry -burning the flask (something I'd definitely do if left to my own devices).

When I'm pressure canning the wort, I set the timer for the pressure canner when the weight on top starts rattling. I turn down the heat under the canner so that the rattling is intermittent and turn the flame on under the flask. When the timer goes off I turn the flame out from under both the canner and the flask, and let them cool overnight.

I've settled on a SG of 1.035 for the wort. There are four 800 ml mason jars, so depending on what the yeast starter calculator indicates, I can add up to 3200 mL of wort to the flask and then pitch the yeast slurry, for each step needed.

To put the starter in the flask, I open the mason jars and set them in a row, and place the jar with the yeast slurry at the end of the row. Then I take off the foam stopper and hold it with hand, and put a sterilized funnel on top of the flask. I pour in the wort and the slurry, and re-stopper the flask.

The stopper and the top of the flask are exposed to the air for about 15 seconds; as the flask is covered by the sterile funnel and the sterile wort is being poured in, the main risk for infection (and I think that it's probably a very small risk) comes from the stopper. Maybe mist it once with a spray bottle of StarSan solution?

 

[allentwnguy]

lhommedieu, Thanks for the morning laugh! When I scrolled down to "speaking of wrinkles" and saw your stove!!!

And a big thanks for the idea of "extra wort." I've just decided to yeast bank (White Labs yeast just went up 50 cents per.) I searched to see how long processed wort could last and happened onto your posts. I plan on canning 500ml of wort into quart jars, processing. Then when I make a starter I'll make a 1.5 liter starter pitching some into the canned wort and the rest into the beer. Letting the "new" starter grow then decant for the next brew.

A little more grain into the mash is cheaper than DME. Thanks. Kind of reminds me of the old sour dough starters. Take a little then add a little more food.

 

[lhommedieu]

I'm pretty happy with the process. I was able to use my canned wort from my last brew to top off my secondary fermenter and give the yeast some help.

The only thing that I might change is to sterilize a strainer and use it as I decant the wort into the fermenter or keg; sterilizing the wort for 20 minutes with the pressure cooker causes some precipitates that fall to the bottom of the quart jars. Not a big deal but why add it at all? A small strainer fits neatly into the bottom of a sterilized funnel.

 

[dunbruha]

The only thing that I might change is to sterilize a strainer and use it as I decant the wort into the fermenter or keg; sterilizing the wort for 20 minutes with the pressure cooker causes some precipitates that fall to the bottom of the quart jars. Not a big deal but why add it at all? A small strainer fits neatly into the bottom of a sterilized funnel.

What about boiling the DME in a big kettle, then let it sit (or cold crash) to let the trub settle out. Then decant into mason jars and pressure can.

 

[eddiewould]

My process:

I do my normal batch sparge (usually 2 steps i.e. drain, add 4L of 75c water, drain, add 18L of 75 water, drain). Start my boil with that.

Once I'm done with that, I head up maybe 1-2 litres of extra sprage water to 80c and add that to the mash run. I then drain that into a stock pot and leave my mash-tun "dripping" to collect everything until completely empty - tilting it slighly to get the wort from the deadspace. That is my starter wort. I'd be at risk of over-sparging if I was producing beer (possibly going below 1.010) but I don't really care about that.

I then measure the OG of that starter wort. Usually it's around 1.020. I take it uptstairs (in the stock pot) and leave it to boil while I'm getting on with the rest of the brew, checking on it occasionally, waiting until it reads around 1.040 on the refractometer.

I then pour it into washed (but not steralised) 1L plastic milk bottles. I put the lids on them and chuck them in a cold water bath to bring them down to room temp.

Once they're at room temp, I chuck them in the freezer. When it comes to making a starter, all I need to do is defrost one (or two) of the plastic milk bottles, add to my flask (along with yeast nutrient) and boil for 15 mins as usual.

Note that when I pitch starters I always cold-crash and decant everything except the yeast.

 

[kombat]

sterilizing the wort for 20 minutes with the pressure cooker causes some precipitates that fall to the bottom of the quart jars. Not a big deal but why add it at all?

Because it's an extra step and an extra risk of contaminating the wort you just sterilized.

A better question: Why not add it?

 

[kombat]

I then pour it into washed (but not steralised) 1L plastic milk bottles. I put the lids on them and chuck them in a cold water bath to bring them down to room temp.

You pour boiling hot wort into plastic jugs intended to hold cold milk? Aren't you worried about chemicals leeching out of the plastic into the wort?

And with the lids on, when you dunk them in cold water, won't they contract dramatically and crinkle, as the air inside cools and shrinks? Ever rinse out an empty 2L pop bottle with hot water, then screw the cap on and throw it in the recycling? It contorts grotesquely as it cools.

Once they're at room temp, I chuck them in the freezer. When it comes to making a starter, all I need to do is defrost one (or two) of the plastic milk bottles, add to my flask (along with yeast nutrient) and boil for 15 mins as usual.

I would think it would take longer waiting for a 2L chunk of frozen wort to thaw than it would to just make a fresh starter from DME. Doesn't this require considerable planning ahead? And you still have to boil it again, which means you also have to cool it again.

I don't see what you're saving here, besides perhaps a little bit of DME. Certainly not time or hassle.

 

[kombat]

What about boiling the DME in a big kettle, then let it sit (or cold crash) to let the trub settle out. Then decant into mason jars and pressure can.

Seems like an extra step (the boiling) just to eliminate some trub. What's the big aversion to a little trub? It's proteins and other nutrients that the yeast actually like.

Just mix up some DME in some warm water (no need to boil), add a little yeast nutrient, funnel it into some mason jars, pressure can them, "no-chill" them, and stick them in the cupboard until you need them. No need to re-boil, decant, or anything. When you need to make a starter, just pop the lids, pour into a (sanitized) flask, pitch your yeast, and go to bed. 5 minutes, tops.

 

[jleiii]

Just mix up some DME in some warm water (no need to boil), add a little yeast nutrient, funnel it into some mason jars, pressure can them, "no-chill" them, and stick them in the cupboard until you need them. No need to re-boil, decant, or anything. When you need to make a starter, just pop the lids, pour into a (sanitized) flask, pitch your yeast, and go to bed. 5 minutes, tops.

This has been working for me quite nicely. I my case I bring a pot of water to near boil, fill the jars (in the pressure canner pot) about 2/3, stir in the dme till dissolved, top off with water, pressure cook, and store. I've also used second runnings, and make separate ones for wheat starters. I've got a case of quarts ready to roll!

When I use them I pour carefully and leave as much trub behind as I can. I re-use the decanted liquid, yeast vial residue and flask residue from the first starter to prep more yeast for the next time. I use twice as many jars of starter wort, but I don't have to buy yeast very often.

 

[eddiewould]

You pour boiling hot wort into plastic jugs intended to hold cold milk? Aren't you worried about chemicals leeching out of the plastic into the wort?

Nah not really worried about it. I'm not keeping very much of the resultant liquid, anyway. Having said that, I could probably avoid the concern & get it cooled faster if I simply put the stock pot into the sink (and then transferred into the milk bottles once cool)

And with the lids on, when you dunk them in cold water, won't they contract dramatically and crinkle, as the air inside cools and shrinks? Ever rinse out an empty 2L pop bottle with hot water, then screw the cap on and throw it in the recycling? It contorts grotesquely as it cools.

They don't seem to, no. I'd say it's probably a different situation since they're not empty (and full of hot air) rather, they're full of hot liquid (which will shrink a bit I guess, but not as much)

I would think it would take longer waiting for a 2L chunk of frozen wort to thaw than it would to just make a fresh starter from DME. Doesn't this require considerable planning ahead? And you still have to boil it again, which means you also have to cool it again.

Not really I can just stick it in the microwave for a few minutes or stick it in a bath of hot water and do something else while I wait for it to defrost.

I don't see what you're saving here, besides perhaps a little bit of DME. Certainly not time or hassle.

I don't really like working with DME - find it a bit of a pain to mix up. The time spent is all while I'm waiting for my wort to reach boil anyway - so not really much else I could be doing.

It works for me and that's the main thing

 

[dunbruha]

Seems like an extra step (the boiling) just to eliminate some trub. What's the big aversion to a little trub? It's proteins and other nutrients that the yeast actually like.

Just mix up some DME in some warm water (no need to boil), add a little yeast nutrient, funnel it into some mason jars, pressure can them, "no-chill" them, and stick them in the cupboard until you need them. No need to re-boil, decant, or anything. When you need to make a starter, just pop the lids, pour into a (sanitized) flask, pitch your yeast, and go to bed. 5 minutes, tops.

Thanks, that makes sense. Your method sounds like one I'll try. What does "no-chill" mean, though?

 

[kombat]

Thanks, that makes sense. Your method sounds like one I'll try. What does "no-chill" mean, though?

In normal brewing, "no chill" just means you don't use a chiller to cool the wort after boiling. You just leave it and let it cool naturally to room temperature. With wort canning, I just meant that after you're done canning them, you don't try to chill them in any way - you just let the canner and jars cool down on their own. As they do, the lids will suck down and form a vacuum.

 

[dunbruha]

In normal brewing, "no chill" just means you don't use a chiller to cool the wort after boiling. You just leave it and let it cool naturally to room temperature. With wort canning, I just meant that after you're done canning them, you don't try to chill them in any way - you just let the canner and jars cool down on their own. As they do, the lids will suck down and form a vacuum.

Cool :fro:

Thanks

 

[Jamie_K]

Seems like an extra step (the boiling) just to eliminate some trub. What's the big aversion to a little trub? It's proteins and other nutrients that the yeast actually like.

Just mix up some DME in some warm water (no need to boil), add a little yeast nutrient, funnel it into some mason jars, pressure can them, "no-chill" them, and stick them in the cupboard until you need them. No need to re-boil, decant, or anything. When you need to make a starter, just pop the lids, pour into a (sanitized) flask, pitch your yeast, and go to bed. 5 minutes, tops.

This is similar to my process. I add 3.2 oz of DME to quart mason jars then fill with hot tap water to 1/2 inch from top and stir. Pressure cook for 15 minuites, let cool and put them on the shelf at room temp. Quick and easy when you want to get a starter going. After 2-3 days on stir plate I put starter in the fridge and decant on the morning of brew day. Then I add an add'l quart of starter to the yeast for a 10 gal. batch. By pitching time in the afternoon the yeast is very happy. Usually see lag times of 4-6 hrs. for ales.

 

[emorris]

cool stuff just got a pressure canner trying it out wit the last of my dme