Using a "dirty" fermenter

[Owly055]

What is sanitation?

I can get really lazy at times ;-) ........... can't we all? I've been brewing some saisons using Belle Saison. my fermenters are 2 gallon glass ice tea dispensers.... about $13 at Walmart. I've adopted a procedure of simply transferring one brew into secondary... or in reality just to dry hop and then cold crash, and pouring out most of the trub...... everything that I can dump out quickly without scraping, and simply pouring my fresh wort into the "dirty" fermenter.

I've done 4 saisons this way so far from a single packet of Belle Saison

I've asked myself the above question....."what is sanitation" numerous times with regard to brewing, and various other things. I work on diesel engines a lot, and my hands are frequently covered in some pretty ugly greasy stuff. I get cuts on my hands all the time, and have NEVER had one get infected....... grease and oil are essentially steril antiseptic materials. It's dirty ugly stuff, but microbes don't live in it. I remember going to the doctor to get stitches..... which I've done many times, and the nurse being horrified by the "dirt" on my hands, trying to scrub it all off so I wouldn't get infected. I laughed at her, and pointed out the obvious fact that this was not microbe bearing "dirt", and posed no threat at all. She seemed unconvinced, but the doctor who was standing there laughed and said...."he's right you know".

Your fermenter is full of microbes......... almost all yeast, as the alcohol kills virtually everything else. Dump the trub out, and scrub out the fermenter and rinse it, and you introduce an entirely new collection of microbes, and you have to treat it with starsan to kill (hopefully) the undesirables. Quickly dump the trub out, and you will have minimal undesirable microbes, and still have a strong active yeast culture.
It may look "ugly" or "dirty".............. but is it? I've done the same with kefir and kombucha for years, actually my kombucha is a continuous brew. Both occasionally get a wash for esthetic reasons, but not often. My continuous brew conical has never been washed.......... and I've run 13 brews through it, but the wort goes in boiling hot... 1/3 new on 2/3 old in my fast ferment. It's a wonderful system that's been producing a lot of excellent Norwegian pale ale.

H.W.

 

[cloudybrewer]

I'll take your "dirt" a step further. I'm a farmer who feeds cattle. My hands are beat to hell and back. Everything I touch outside, gates, buckets, tractors, you name it, has sh#t on it, even if it isn't a visible amount. The many open cuts on my hands hardly ever get infected, either, even being constantly exposed to manure, which NOT antiseptic. ��

As far as fermenting is concerned, your​ observations seem correct to me. But I'm new to this and haven't been successful yet, so I'll just go to the corner and put on my dunce hat now.

 

[Stillraining]

Answer....................Brewing attracts Engineers, Engineers are clean, analytical people. It bothers them.

I feel the same way as you with my kegs. Washing every time is a waste of time.

 

[Bigfly]

I have done similar with 5 gal batches without problems. People were brewing beer for millennia before the introduction of Starsan and they probably didn't throw away much bad beer.

 

[Queequeg]

The only issue I have that there is a difference between a minor and major contamination.

When people say "they have never had an infection" they mean they have never had contamination that has resulted in gross spoilage.

Minor contamination is much more prevalent and goes undetected despite having an adverse effect on beer quality.

Furthermore when you are repeatedly repitching multiple times into "dirty" fermenter you are enriching those minor contaminates each time.

It would be interesting if you brewed a split batch one half to a fresh fermenter and one to the "dirty"

 

[madscientist451]

I've done wrong, I'm not proud of it, but I've dumped fresh wort into a carboy I just siphoned the beer out of. Yeast cake on the bottom, dried Krausen on the sides of the carboy, breaking the rules.
I'll have to tell my G/F to spank me.

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

I've done wrong, I'm not proud of it, but I've dumped fresh wort into a carboy I just siphoned the beer out of. Yeast cake on the bottom, dried Krausen on the sides of the carboy, breaking the rules.
I'll have to tell my G/F to spank me.

I think Queequeg is right. Although I plan to pour my next brew into the fermentors that are bubbling away right now in three weeks, if I'm honest, this isn't a true transgression. While perhaps I wouldn't mind also being spanked, it isn't because I believe I am doing wrong. I cleaned and sanitized both those fermentors before I filled them with fresh wort and US-05. Now thirteen batches in and I think that it is a strong possibility one might be able to make malt vinegar if it was left too long to age, but having never tried this I can't really know.

 

[csurowiec]

I think both you and your fermenters could be considered to have a robust immune system. Because your hands are always getting dirty and getting nicked, your immune system has plenty to do and it's strong. If you worked in a cubicle and used hand sanitizer all the time your cuts would get infected more often. The fermenters don't get infected because the yeast is always there and always top dog. Nothing else can muscle its way in.

 

[HiImBrian]

I'll just chime in and say that I've met professional brewers that do the same thing. They'll transfer a FV to a brite and then just fill the FV right up again. Yeast seems to hang on roughly 8 generations before getting a bit lazy, but I've never heard of this being an unsanitary way of fermenting. As the OP said, "cleaning" could potentially bring in new bacteria that is not wanted.

My 2 cents

 

[Queequeg]

^^ its a totally different kettle of fish when a brewery does it though.

Firstly they CIP/SIP on the initial use with hot caustic, then rinse, then a liquid sterilant like peracetic acid.

So the initial bioburden is in a state of ultra asepsis. They the transfer via a closed system through the racking port along a sterile fluid path.

Consequently no minor contaminants are enriched at each repitch.

As for a monoculture inhibiting microbial contaminates that only works with aerobes which are out competed for DO during the growth phase.

 

[Owly055]

I would say this is just another way to harvest yeast. Many of us harvest yeast and reuse it. The traditional methods of harvesting it from trub or of top cropping, handling, washing, etc... introduce plenty of possible points of infection. The "dirty fermenter" method involves no handling. You have brief atmospheric exposure..... very little, when dumping the fermeter, and brief atmospheric exposure when pouring in wort. I suspect that it is actually a more sanitary procedure than the typical amateur yeast harvest.

I've run my continuous fermenter through 13 cycles using Sigmunds Voss Kveik, pouring boiling wort into the fermenter each time...... 2 gallons of wort to 4 gallons of wort in the fermenter. I'm getting good pale ale out of it with no discernible off flavors. That said, I'm not holding to any particular recipe, each brew being individual, and the output being a blend of flavors that seems quite decent. I taste the product when I go into secondary and decide if I want to dry hop and what with, and what I want to do with my next contribution.... What flavor direction I want to take it. I'm learning to really like dry hopping.

H.W.

 

[HiImBrian]

^^ its a totally different kettle of fish when a brewery does it though. I respectfully disagree (not trying to nag). See below

Firstly they CIP/SIP on the initial use with hot caustic, then rinse, then a liquid sterilant like peracetic acid. On a homebrew scale, one should also clean out all vessels thoroughly. Just because a brewery may use different methods and chemicals doesn't make the end result any different. At the end of the day we all just want a clean FV. If the FV isn't clean, the potential for bacteria exists whether homebrew or professional level.

So the initial bioburden is in a state of ultra asepsis. Huh?! They the transfer via a closed system through the racking port along a sterile fluid path. It shouldn't make a difference if my hose is a different material and if my pump is smaller than that of a professional brewery. Both methods take hot wort from a BK, cool it down, and transfer (via a close system) to the FV

Consequently no minor contaminants are enriched at each repitch. That can't be 100% true since there have been times where a professional brewery has had batches go bad. Right?

As for a monoculture inhibiting microbial contaminates that only works with aerobes which are out competed for DO during the growth phase.

Again, I'm not at all trying to be rude and I'll totally agree that a professional brewery may have equipment that homebrewers do not, and they likely use chemicals not available to homebrewers, but the possibility for both to fail absolutely exists, thus I conclude that reusing yeast on a homebrew level as well as a professional level are at the very lease similar

 

[ericbw]

Again, I'm not at all trying to be rude and I'll totally agree that a professional brewery may have equipment that homebrewers do not, and they likely use chemicals not available to homebrewers, but the possibility for both to fail absolutely exists, thus I conclude that reusing yeast on a homebrew level as well as a professional level are at the very lease similar

You have to understand the difference between tidy, clean, sanitized, and sterile. My living room is tidy. The bathroom is clean (at least on chore day!) but it's still not fit for eating off the floor.

He's saying that breweries get it sterile (not just sanitized like we do at the hone brew level), so it's aseptic. If they start there with a closed system, there's less/no chance of contaminants. That's what he means.

Your tube you pull out of a drawer once a month and hook up to an autosiphon, then siphon to a bottling bucket isn't a closed system.

Breweries fail sometimes, but you don't hear about it a lot.

For those that point to the history of beer - I bet they drank some nasty stuff back in the day. Yes, it's beer. No, it's not good.

Having said all that, I have emptied a fermenter, rinsed it, poured a couple cups of yeast slurry back in and added wort. It was an awesome blonde ale.

 

[Queequeg]

Different methods and chemicals absolutely make the end result different.

The level of antibacterial action between starsan and peracetic acid or chlorine dioxide is worlds a part.

Likewise opening the fermenter and closed container transfer are totally different. It not the pump and plate chiller that matters it's that is pumped to a closed vessel.

It's simply not true to say a used fermenter is cleaner than an fresh one, as that all depends on how you are cleaning.

I'm not saying this makes a difference for each batch, just that its good practice to periodically deep clean your fermenter.

A fermenter is in effect a very efficient mode of selective pressure for microbes. It beneficial to reset that process to avoid minor contamination issues.

And again I will stress that minor contamination still effects beer quality

 

[mongoose33]

Answer....................Brewing attracts Engineers, Engineers are clean, analytical people. It bothers them.

I feel the same way as you with my kegs. Washing every time is a waste of time.

I agree, it's a pain. What's your process, if you have one? Obviously a kicked keg is full of CO2, so oxygen-free (or almost) transfers should be relatively easy.

I rack from fermenter to keg, going through the QD into the OUT side. The keg is purged and full of CO2, and I run a line from the QD IN side back into the fermenter to keep feeding that increasing headspace with the CO2 that's displaced from the keg.

So are you saying I could just rack into a recently-kicked keg with no concerns about cleanliness or flavor issues?

 

[ericbw]

I agree, it's a pain. What's your process, if you have one? Obviously a kicked keg is full of CO2, so oxygen-free (or almost) transfers should be relatively easy.



I rack from fermenter to keg, going through the QD into the OUT side. The keg is purged and full of CO2, and I run a line from the QD IN side back into the fermenter to keep feeding that increasing headspace with the CO2 that's displaced from the keg.



So are you saying I could just rack into a recently-kicked keg with no concerns about cleanliness or flavor issues?

What? You gravity rack to the keg? Or you force it somehow?

 

[allanmorgan]

People were brewing beer for millennia before the introduction of Starsan and they probably didn't throw away much bad beer.

This! ^^

Sanitizing is overrated.

 

[Hoppy2bmerry]

I've done wrong, I'm not proud of it, but I've dumped fresh wort into a carboy I just siphoned the beer out of. Yeast cake on the bottom, dried Krausen on the sides of the carboy, breaking the rules.
I'll have to tell my G/F to spank me.

I have as well, once. The resulting beer got a ribbon. Then months later, I did it again after bottling an Irish red I added wort for an Irish stout. Of course, the brewer who uses the same yeast for every beer risks making different styles tha taste very similar. Or so I've been told.

 

[allanmorgan]

For those that point to the history of beer - I bet they drank some nasty stuff back in the day. Yes, it's beer. No, it's not good. How can you say this...

Having said all that, I have emptied a fermenter, rinsed it, poured a couple cups of yeast slurry back in and added wort. It was an awesome blonde ale. And then say this...

It seems those two statements contradict each other. They did this and I did that, but their beer was crap and mine was good. Maybe theirs was better than we really think it was. Hard to say when we were not there. I'm sure they made tons of crap, but I'm sure they made tons of good stuff too.

Especially taking into account the air quality. They had no idea what yeast was and how it played into making beer. All open air fermentation (no citation available to support this statement and I don't know all the ins and outs of how beer was made back then). I would hesitate to open air ferment anything this day like they would have.

I dunno. Not trying to be a ****** or anything. Just my $0.02. :rockin:

 

[Stillraining]

I agree, it's a pain. What's your process, if you have one? Obviously a kicked keg is full of CO2, so oxygen-free (or almost) transfers should be relatively easy.

I rack from fermenter to keg, going through the QD into the OUT side. The keg is purged and full of CO2, and I run a line from the QD IN side back into the fermenter to keep feeding that increasing headspace with the CO2 that's displaced from the keg.

So are you saying I could just rack into a recently-kicked keg with no concerns about cleanliness or flavor issues? Yes you can

However I do rinse with tap water and then rince again with Starsan...I just dont use any cleaner for 3+ fills...Yopper challenge me on this a month or so ago , so I tore down the posts on a confirmed 3 use no cleaned Keg and they were spotless clean.

If your fermenting in a keg then I can maybe see the need for more cleaning but as you say there is no air born stuff getting into our CO2 purged kegs so what can really grow?

You asked so here it is

Here is my process.

1) Keg kicks
2) Disconnect from lines but Leave it pressurized and unopened until your ready to refill. Of course keep it out of the sun and in a cool place, and be reasonable on how long this time frame is. I'm talking weeks up to 5 or 7 not months here.
3) On Keg day pull relief valve..if flat it may need cleaned..if still pressurized open and rinse with water and Starsan..and by that I mean add 1/2 to 3/4 gallon respectively and slosh around. I also depress pop-it valves and squirt with water hose..and yes it does flush them out pretty well surprisingly.
4) Gravity feed to refill...Maybe someday I will do a closed transfer like you but our beer gets great reviews so I'm not into all the hassle and wast of CO2 at this point...YMMV

That's it!...no bad beers , no infections , no crossover flavors. And I go from Stout's to Pale Ales to IPA's with out regard as to what was last in the keg. If it were not for a bit of yeast junk in the bottom of the kegs I would not even bother with the rinsing regiment.

Here is the picture of a confirmed 3 time used keg out post , pop-it and tube BEFORE rinsing. I have a picture looking down the tube too if you want to see it.

 

[ericbw]

It seems those two statements contradict each other. They did this and I did that, but their beer was crap and mine was good. Maybe theirs was better than we really think it was. Hard to say when we were not there. I'm sure they made tons of crap, but I'm sure they made tons of good stuff too.



Especially taking into account the air quality. They had no idea what yeast was and how it played into making beer. All open air fermentation (no citation available to support this statement and I don't know all the ins and outs of how beer was made back then). I would hesitate to open air ferment anything this day like they would have.



I dunno. Not trying to be a ****** or anything. Just my $0.02. :rockin:

I'm lucky. And if it's bad, I dump it.

 

[ericbw]

It seems those two statements contradict each other. They did this and I did that, but their beer was crap and mine was good. Maybe theirs was better than we really think it was. Hard to say when we were not there. I'm sure they made tons of crap, but I'm sure they made tons of good stuff too.



Especially taking into account the air quality. They had no idea what yeast was and how it played into making beer. All open air fermentation (no citation available to support this statement and I don't know all the ins and outs of how beer was made back then). I would hesitate to open air ferment anything this day like they would have.



I dunno. Not trying to be a ****** or anything. Just my $0.02. :rockin:

Oh, also, I have done this, but it's not my standard practice. I prefer to sanitize. I'm just saying that it's possible to do it once and be ok.

 

[botigol]

I saw a number of and heard of a number more sanitation issues while stewarding at this year's NHC first round. There was one memorable bottle which when the judges held it up to the light in order to check the fill level found "a layer of crust" in the neck of the bottle; the second bottle was in the same condition. Not saying that this will happen to you, but it could depending on the combination of sanitation points that come together at a certain time.

 

[VladOfTrub]

"I'll just chime in and say that I've met professional brewers that do the same thing."

A professional, professional brewer won't tell you anything. They sign a nondisclosure agreement. So, if you spoke to a professional, professional brewer and not to a PR man. The brewer told you something 180 degrees in reverse. He may think that you have ideas of opening a brewery and becoming his competition. Plus, he knew that whatever he told you would end up on the internet.

In my opinion, as long as the method doesn't negatively impact the final product, do it. However, many things have a use by date, especially home made beer and perhaps, the beer is still green when it is tapped and gone before any negative impacts are perceived.

 

[HiImBrian]

"I'll just chime in and say that I've met professional brewers that do the same thing."

A professional, professional brewer won't tell you anything. They sign a nondisclosure agreement. So, if you spoke to a professional, professional brewer and not to a PR man. The brewer told you something 180 degrees in reverse. He may think that you have ideas of opening a brewery and becoming his competition. Plus, he knew that whatever he told you would end up on the internet.

Oh.

 

[Queequeg]

A professional, professional brewer won't tell you anything. They sign a nondisclosure agreement. So, if you spoke to a professional, professional brewer and not to a PR man. The brewer told you something 180 degrees in reverse. He may think that you have ideas of opening a brewery and becoming his competition. Plus, he knew that whatever he told you would end up on the internet.

Maybe for big breweries like Coors or Carlsberg, not for smaller ones though.

 

[Kharnynb]

"I'll just chime in and say that I've met professional brewers that do the same thing."

A professional, professional brewer won't tell you anything. They sign a nondisclosure agreement. So, if you spoke to a professional, professional brewer and not to a PR man. The brewer told you something 180 degrees in reverse. He may think that you have ideas of opening a brewery and becoming his competition. Plus, he knew that whatever he told you would end up on the internet.

In my opinion, as long as the method doesn't negatively impact the final product, do it. However, many things have a use by date, especially home made beer and perhaps, the beer is still green when it is tapped and gone before any negative impacts are perceived.

Sorry, but that's utter bs. I've been at the grolsch brewery in Enschede many times and they are happy to discuss process and even recipe basics.

They won't tell you details on the exact hop or grain amounts etc, but they have no trouble to explain exactly how the system works and what happens where...

edit: it would be not even be legal to hide a lot of this information, as it has to be released according to food and health and safety laws.

 

[Yesfan]

.............I have a picture looking down the tube too if you want to see it.

I'd like to see that. Not that I doubt you, just curious.


I've wondered about the "dirty keg fill" scenario myself. I just can't get past the OCD side of me to do it. Same with the dirty fermenter method.

 

[mongoose33]

What? You gravity rack to the keg? Or you force it somehow?

Sorry, missed this somehow.

Yes, I gravity rack to the keg. Below is a pic showing how i do that. It takes 15-20 minutes sometimes for this to complete, but I just do something else while that happens.

Part of my ethos as a relatively new brewer has been to try to do something better every time I brew, to gradually refine my process. Limiting exposure to oxygen post-fermentation has been one of those efforts.

One exposure I'm working on is the air in the racking tubing. I'm trying to leave just a tiny bit of CO2 pressure in the keg so when I attach the tubing from the fermenter to the keg, and the CO2 line, that tiny bit of residual CO2 will flush the tubing as I connect it to the spigot and top of fermenter.

[BTW, the reason for the airlock on top was that I needed something to which I could attach the tubing, and the only think I had that matched the tubing I had was to cut the top off the airlock and attach the tubing to that. Tubing from anything (ballpoint pen body? racking cane?) that would fit the drilled stopper would work as well.]

Overkill? I don't know. Too fixated on tiny things? Again, don't know. But I do know that as I rack that beer into the keg, it is not coming into contact w/ oxygen, which his what I want.

 

[ericbw]

Sorry, missed this somehow.



Yes, I gravity rack to the keg. Below is a pic showing how i do that. It takes 15-20 minutes sometimes for this to complete, but I just do something else while that happens.



Part of my ethos as a relatively new brewer has been to try to do something better every time I brew, to gradually refine my process. Limiting exposure to oxygen post-fermentation has been one of those efforts.



One exposure I'm working on is the air in the racking tubing. I'm trying to leave just a tiny bit of CO2 pressure in the keg so when I attach the tubing from the fermenter to the keg, and the CO2 line, that tiny bit of residual CO2 will flush the tubing as I connect it to the spigot and top of fermenter.



[BTW, the reason for the airlock on top was that I needed something to which I could attach the tubing, and the only think I had that matched the tubing I had was to cut the top off the airlock and attach the tubing to that. Tubing from anything (ballpoint pen body? racking cane?) that would fit the drilled stopper would work as well.]



Overkill? I don't know. Too fixated on tiny things? Again, don't know. But I do know that as I rack that beer into the keg, it is not coming into contact w/ oxygen, which his what I want.



View attachment 400424

Cool set up!

 

[oylerck]

"I'll just chime in and say that I've met professional brewers that do the same thing."



A professional, professional brewer won't tell you anything. They sign a nondisclosure agreement. So, if you spoke to a professional, professional brewer and not to a PR man. The brewer told you something 180 degrees in reverse. He may think that you have ideas of opening a brewery and becoming his competition. Plus, he knew that whatever he told you would end up on the internet.



In my opinion, as long as the method doesn't negatively impact the final product, do it. However, many things have a use by date, especially home made beer and perhaps, the beer is still green when it is tapped and gone before any negative impacts are perceived.

If you email some breweries, they'll give you the recipe. In percentages and AAUs, but you can figure that all by yourself. Competition is healthy for the craft world and I think most breweries believe that.

 

[Stillraining]

I'd like to see that. Not that I doubt you, just curious.


I've wondered about the "dirty keg fill" scenario myself. I just can't get past the OCD side of me to do it. Same with the dirty fermenter method.

LOL...Yah I get that...so here you go..a little harder to see then looking down a gun barrel due to the curve but pretty clearly shows a shiny clean surface. It was a lot easyer to see then to photograph.

 

[mesooohoppy]

A professional, professional brewer won't tell you anything. They sign a nondisclosure agreement. So, if you spoke to a professional, professional brewer and not to a PR man. The brewer told you something 180 degrees in reverse. He may think that you have ideas of opening a brewery and becoming his competition. Plus, he knew that whatever he told you would end up on the internet.

NDA huh? So all of the breweries I've called or talked to in the tap room are just outright lying to me?

Its funny because I read a lot that there are brewers out there that don't want to share info with anyone and will do anything to keep their 'secrets' or 'techniques' a secret. Sure, you may have the some breweries that don't want to tell you what hops they used in their award winning DIPA, or the pound to bbl ratio they dry hop with, which is understandable.

But, here's the thing: you've got to realize that every brewery makes beer the same (general) way with the same 4 ingredients; mash, boil, cool, pitch. Its science, but its not like quantum physics or something only a handful of people in the world are capable of understanding.

 

[RPh_Guy]

So to get back on topic, the OP is simply suggesting that beer can be made with less than "standard" sanitation procedures. I don't think anyone is contesting this fact. The thing is... After enough brew cycles through the same yeast cake the yeast will mutate and other microbes (bacteria, mold, yeast) will colonize your brews and cold-side equipment. As already mentioned, these wild microbes may not cause immediate gross spoilage, but they may still have effects on flavor and shelf life.

On the other hand sanitation obviously and undeniably reduces the risk of contamination from wild microbes. Pretty sure no one is trying to deny this either. Yes it is "unnecessary" extra work but you will have drastically lower risk of unknown microbes in your beer.

 

[Dcpcooks]

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1494969061.907991.jpgView attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1494969087.655610.jpg

Can't get more open and dirty than this.

I brewed this last Friday night, transferred 10 gallons to an open coolship and opened the windows. Didn't pitch a thing and the barrel was cleaned with caustic so it's not a source. It needed a blowoff tube this morning.

Basically you can make beer with inoculation from Wild yeast, bacteria, sacc yeast and whatever is floating in the air. You can even get past inoculation from E. coli and enterobacter if you allow the beer enough time to process it out.

So can you constantly reuse a fermentor and a yeast cake, sure you can. I doubt you could repeat the same beer or guarantee it's ability to age well ( or maybe you get lucky and it's amazing) But you could make beer with it.

I have a solera from 2015. I haven't done more than pull some out and add fresh wort since. It's always changing and usually very tasty.

You'll see a shift in the yeast and it will mutate as well. But that's ok sometimes. My buddy has an awesome mutant from a 001 pitch. It's cloudy and fruity and makes a great east coast IPA. It still eats sugar like 001 which is great. I'm sure if plated, it would be different than the original yeast.