Using a 1 gal jug for a yeast starter?

[npbrew]

So I used a 1 gallon apple juice jug for a 1L starter the last few times, and got some varying results.

I also thought I would make 6 gallon batches, and rack the extra gallon of wort onto the yeast dregs left over from the 1 gal starter jug.

Anyone run into issues using such a large jug for a small starter? And is it ok to use the starter container for fermenting?

 

[FlyDoctor]

I routinely use a 1G glass jug for starters, but not small ones like 1L. I actually tend to use 1/2G growlers for 1L, anything bigger gets the 1G jug.


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[bja]

So I used a 1 gallon apple juice jug for a 1L starter the last few times, and got some varying results.

Like what?

 

[npbrew]

Like what?

One time I got a starter infection - probably all my fault, as I may have grabbed the wrong un-sanitized jug that previously had juice in it, and ended up with vinegar. :cross: Another starter just did not really... start. Fizzed a bit, but not much after that and after pitching I ended up with a stalled out fermentation.

Not sure if either of them have anything to do with the jug, and I did have one successful starter with a weizen yeast. I figured that the more surface area / O2 exposure the better for a starter, but can there be too much?

 

[bja]

Not sure if either of them have anything to do with the jug,

The jug is not your problem.

That's all I use is 1 gallon pickle jars. I have 8 of them.

 

[BigDaddyD]

Okay so my question is this:
Can I start my starter in the carboy I am going to ferment in?
It is all going into the fermentation anyway so why not start it there and when I dump over the chilled wort it will mix and add the O2 needed to getting the process started.

I am new to using starters as I have just pitched yeast straight up!

Looking for feed back so I can get things ready for Super Brew Sunday this weekend!

Thanks!

 

[bja]

Okay so my question is this:
Can I start my starter in the carboy I am going to ferment in?
It is all going into the fermentation anyway so why not start it there and when I dump over the chilled wort it will mix and add the O2 needed to getting the process started.

I am new to using starters as I have just pitched yeast straight up!

Looking for feed back so I can get things ready for Super Brew Sunday this weekend!

Thanks!

If you're going to pitch the entire starter, and you're not using a stir plate then there's no reason that you can't use the carboy.

 

[BigDaddyD]

If you're going to pitch the entire starter, and you're not using a stir plate then there's no reason that you can't use the carboy.

Ok! I was thinking that but I wanted to make sure so I didn't have a waste of money!


Thanks!

 

[brewmeister13]

Not sure if this applies to starters, but when fermenting, if you use too large of a container for a low volume it can cause the yeast to flocculate prematurely. The shallow depth and large diameter means the yeast don't have far to travel to settle.

 

[BigDaddyD]

Very true. I had not thought about depth till you said that. The yeast does need room to travel to live and do it's job. Thanks!


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[bja]

Not sure if this applies to starters, but when fermenting, if you use too large of a container for a low volume it can cause the yeast to flocculate prematurely. The shallow depth and large diameter means the yeast don't have far to travel to settle.

Why would that be a problem?

 

[BigDaddyD]

I know when I start a sour dough starter I like to and have an inch or two of liquid to allow for evaporation but when looking at this there should be. I truly don't know either way, I can see a reason why and a reason why not. So to put this to rest/test, I start my starter in the carboy and document via photo how things at least look and of course after a few weeks of how it tastes. Lol


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[brewmeister13]

Why would that be a problem?

Like I said, I'm not sure if it would be in a starter, but in a regular fermentation. It causes a high finishing gravity and incomplete fermentation. I know most of the growth phase occurs very rapidly in the beginning, but I'm not sure if this would affect yeast health in any significant way.

 

[bja]

It causes a high finishing gravity and incomplete fermentation.

What causes this? A shallow depth? Do you have any proof or did you just make this up?

 

[IslandLizard]

Okay so my question is this:
Can I start my starter in the carboy I am going to ferment in?
It is all going into the fermentation anyway so why not start it there and when I dump over the chilled wort it will mix and add the O2 needed to getting the process started.

I am new to using starters as I have just pitched yeast straight up!

Looking for feed back so I can get things ready for Super Brew Sunday this weekend!

Thanks!

Although many claim that one cannot taste 1-2 liters of starter wort in a 5 gallon batch, I tend to differ. If you've ever tasted starter wort you understand why. So I always decant. And that's much harder from a carboy than a half or one gallon jar. Just my 2 bits.

 

[BigDaddyD]

Although many claim that one cannot taste 1-2 liters of starter wort in a 5 gallon batch, I tend to differ. If you've ever tasted starter wort you understand why. So I always decant. And that's much harder from a carboy than a half or one gallon jar. Just my 2 bits.

When you say decant, can you please explain?
As I am a chef and understand a lot of different cooking terms I am finding that some of our brewing terms don't always match up as I understand them.

I would also like to thank BJA and BM13 for their input on this subject as well. I am the type that once I start to learn about things I like to keep looking at it at different angles.

 

[HBngNOK]

Decanting is simply letting the yeast settle to the bottom, and pouring off as much of the liquid as you can.

On a personal note, and many of you will think this weird. I like the taste of the starter liquid, it's malty, tangy, and imo, refreshing.

 

[bja]

On a personal note, and many of you will think this weird. I like the taste of the starter liquid, it's malty, tangy, and imo, refreshing.

And oxidized to death. Anyone want to chew on cardboard?

 

[brewmeister13]

What causes this? A shallow depth? Do you have any proof or did you just make this up?

Yeah, the shallow depth is the reason. I believe it may be discussed in the yeast book at some point, probably under a section on fermenter design, but am not sure. Personally, I witnessed this during an aeration experiment I ran. I was looking at oxygenation levels and their effect. I was planning to do 5 different levels, but had an extra 1.5 gallons of wort. I only had 5 one gallon "carboys" so I put the last 1.5 gallons into a 5 gallon carboy. The finishing gravities of all the rest were between 1.013 and 1.015 (from saturated with pure O2, somewhere near 40-50ppm depending on what you read, and no oxygenation at all). The one in the 5 gallon container stopped at 1.021. With the level of oxygenation I would have expected it to finish at 1.014.

 

[IslandLizard]

When you say decant, can you please explain?
As I am a chef and understand a lot of different cooking terms I am finding that some of our brewing terms don't always match up as I understand them.

I would also like to thank BJA and BM13 for their input on this subject as well. I am the type that once I start to learn about things I like to keep looking at it at different angles.

Yeah, decanting means pouring off carefully, keeping the yeast behind as much as possible.

After the starter is done, usually 1 or 2 days depending on yeast viability, temps, and agitation, you should chill the jar in the fridge (cold crash) for a day or longer until all the yeast has settled to the bottom. The starter beer on top will become very clear. Then when ready to step up to a larger starter or when ready to pitch, take the jar out of the fridge a couple of hours ahead, to let it warm up to room temps. Pour off most of the clear starter beer, leaving a little behind so you can swirl the yeast back into suspension and either pitch the slurry, or pour more starter wort on top to grow more yeast.

You can see that a carboy would be way harder to handle.
Of course, keep utter sanitation practices when handling yeast.

Always good to explore different angles and use what fits your case or your methods best.

 

[bja]

Yeah, the shallow depth is the reason. I believe it may be discussed in the yeast book at some point, probably under a section on fermenter design, but am not sure. Personally, I witnessed this during an aeration experiment I ran. I was looking at oxygenation levels and their effect. I was planning to do 5 different levels, but had an extra 1.5 gallons of wort. I only had 5 one gallon "carboys" so I put the last 1.5 gallons into a 5 gallon carboy. The finishing gravities of all the rest were between 1.013 and 1.015 (from saturated with pure O2, somewhere near 40-50ppm depending on what you read, and no oxygenation at all). The one in the 5 gallon container stopped at 1.021. With the level of oxygenation I would have expected it to finish at 1.014.

OK, so you fermented 1-1/2 gallons of wort in a 5 gallon carboy. When the finished gravity was too high, you concluded the shallow depth was the reason and there was no other possible explanation. Gotcha!

 

[brewmeister13]

OK, so you fermented 1-1/2 gallons of wort in a 5 gallon carboy. When the finished gravity was too high, you concluded the shallow depth was the reason and there was no other possible explanation. Gotcha!

I hate the internet, I can't tell if you are curious or being a jerk. I'll go with curious as I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. The only variables were oxygenation and fermenter design. The wort was all from a single batch, pitching rate was uniform across the board and they were all fermented at 67F. Since the difference between no aeration at all and saturated with O2 was 2 gravity points, my conclusion was that fermenter design was the culprit of the difference. Sorry to take this thread so , if you are curious, though, I'll happily share more of my methods and information if you send me a message.