Underletting in an All-in-One

[PhillyBrewDoug]

I'm interested in starting to incorporate LoDo techniques into my brewing, and was wondering if anyone has experience using an All-in-One electric system like the Anvil Foundry.

Trying to keep things simple by not adding additional equipment (e.g. liquor tank) since I brew in a 1 bedroom apartment kitchen, aka a corner. Instead of underletting the mash water, would very slowly lowering the malt pipe already filled with grains accomplish the same thing?

 

[smarch0]

I do that with the Grainfather and really like it. I grind directly into the pre-assembled basket, then just put it into the preheated mash water and let it sink. It actually floats and slowly lowers itself! WAY easier than traditional mashin, and my efficiency actually went up 2% after starting to do it this way.

You will still want to give it a couple minutes of stirring once the grain is fully wet, but other than that just grind and drop.

Cheers

 

[enkamania]

I do that with the Grainfather and really like it. I grind directly into the pre-assembled basket, then just put it into the preheated mash water and let it sink. It actually floats and slowly lowers itself! WAY easier than traditional mashin, and my efficiency actually went up 2% after starting to do it this way.

You will still want to give it a couple minutes of stirring once the grain is fully wet, but other than that just grind and drop.

Cheers

I'll have to give this a try. I have a "traditional" BIAB setup with a basket, should be fun to see if it lowers itself.

 

[Carolina_Matt]

I do it like this, but I never paid attention to the oxygen aspect. I do it because it's easier than holding a bucket of grains over the kettle and slowing pouring it in while stirring.

I use a Digiboil and a wilser bag. I line a bucket with the bag, mill my grains directly into the bucket/bag, then gently place the bag in the Digiboil (once I get to strike temperature, of course). There are a lot of big clumps when you do it that way, but I have a huge whisk and it gets rid of them. I just make sure to stir everything up for a minute or so.

 

[PhillyBrewDoug]

I use a Digiboil and a wilser bag. I line a bucket with the bag, mill my grains directly into the bucket/bag, then gently place the bag in the Digiboil (once I get to strike temperature, of course). There are a lot of big clumps when you do it that way, but I have a huge whisk and it gets rid of them. I just make sure to stir everything up for a minute or so.

I use a bag as well, but never thought to put it into the bucket and mill directly into it. Sometimes over-complicating things is too easy...

 

[RPh_Guy]

Just so there's no confusion... underletting by itself doesn't provide any benefit. It's a technique to reduce oxygen exposure, but it won't help if you aren't also minimizing oxygen exposure throughout the rest of the process (hot and cold sides).

 

[PhillyBrewDoug]

@RPh_Guy Fully understood. Just wasn't sure how to approach it without a separate water tank for heating. Pre-boiling the water, conditioning the grain etc etc. need to occur as well.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Lowering the grain in slowly (and pulling it out slowly) is not ideal but it's the best you can do with a single vessel system.

 

[Schlenkerla]

How are you single vessel users mash capping?

 

[RPh_Guy]

@Schlenkerla just wants to show us his balls

 

[PhillyBrewDoug]

I saw the below post and am trying that. I have the locline and an unused pot lid that I’ll be drilling. The lid covers my Foundry pretty well.

I built mine from spare parts. It is very very marginal on its buoyancy, but this question spurred me to light weight all the fittings so hopefully it’s better next time. I had almost 300g or fittings I just reduced down to 140g, so hopefully that makes it better.

It’s a 15G boiler maker lid, inverted, with a male cam lock in either side. I have 1/2” not male and female cam locks sandwiched with silicone o rings to make the bulkhead. Locline under the liquid level for recirc return.


View attachment 548416View attachment 548417
View attachment 548418

I put the cam lock on the locline because I also use this piece in another process and wanted it easily moved.

 

[Schlenkerla]

@Schlenkerla just wants to show us his balls

You read my mind. Got any takers????

 

[mongoose33]

Just so there's no confusion... underletting by itself doesn't provide any benefit. It's a technique to reduce oxygen exposure, but it won't help if you aren't also minimizing oxygen exposure throughout the rest of the process (hot and cold sides).

I've found that LODO issues aside, there actually IS a benefit--I don't get dough balls I have to break up. The first time I did underletting I was shocked that there were NO dough balls.

I like that about underletting....

 

[mongoose33]

I'm not sure how all these all-in-one units work (familiar with some), but one way to underlet in a low-tech way is to do as in the pic below. If I were going to try to do this in an all-in-one unit, I'd drop the silicone tube to the bottom of the basket, fill with crushed grain, lower into the unit, and then attach the tubing to a hot-water vessel high enough to let gravity drain the water into the unit.

I'd get the water in the cooler to the right strike temp, then let it drain into the kettle.

I think the lower-the-basket into the water idea is more elegant, but if there's a reason that can't easily be done, the method shown in the pic will work. I know it will.

 

[Schlenkerla]

I've found that LODO issues aside, there actually IS a benefit--I don't get dough balls I have to break up. The first time I did underletting I was shocked that there were NO dough balls.

I like that about underletting....

That's because the hot liquor slowly fills in at a rate that the grain can absorb it and expand, swell and move around as needed.

If you dough in fast the grains can interlock causing those compacted moisture barriers. Therefore you get the "doughballs" as it densely starts packing in certain areas that are compressed and are not allowed to expand due to pressure from the other sections of swelling grains. Non uniform expansion.

To me it's all about even rate of absorption and expansion. The bed can lift as it starts to swell.

I mentally think of a thermal shock too.

I kind of think of how one would quench and temper steel. It's the opposite of cold to hot, but it's still a shock in a different direction.

You slowly heat the steel to cherry red the chunks of carbon disperses and flows to where it wants to go. Then it's quenched in cold water. The rapid rate of change in temperature hot back to cold doesn't allow the carbon to flow back to natural state making it lock-in place, resulting in hard and brittle steel. Its then heated at lower temp to remove residual stress from quenching. Making it more normal.

Stirring out doughballs after dough-in-shock is like tempering/normalizing your mash.[emoji16]

The old method of the haphazard splash & shock dough-in really traps in the dissolved oxygen.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I've found that LODO issues aside, there actually IS a benefit

I had this caveat in my head "with regard to oxidation" that I missed putting in the post.

Good to know there's another benefit, thanks.

 

[Bassman2003]

I have an Anvil foundry and the way I underlet is to drain from my HLT into the spigot of the Foundry. I mill the grain into a BAIB and move the bag to the Foundry dry. I also use a Brewzilla false bottom instead of the malt pipe. (fits perfectly but the legs need to be bent to raise it a bit). Basically, you can not use the Foundry to heat your strike water as lowering the grain into water will be too fast of an introduction in the end.

The key is pre-boiling or yeast scavenging your water, treating with the trifecta and underletting SLOWLY. Slowly as in 10-12 minutes for 8-9 gallons. You are giving the trifecta a chance to interface with the grain and remove the oxygen. If you introduce too much too fast the whole process does not work as well.

I hope to make some videos and start a YouTube channel around Low OX brewing with my Foundry. Maybe I will get to it this week or so.

 

[Schlenkerla]

I have an Anvil foundry and the way I underlet is to drain from my HLT into the spigot of the Foundry. I mill the grain into a BAIB and move the bag to the Foundry dry. I also use a Brewzilla false bottom instead of the malt pipe. (fits perfectly but the legs need to be bent to raise it a bit). Basically, you can not use the Foundry to heat your strike water as lowering the grain into water will be too fast of an introduction in the end.

The key is pre-boiling or yeast scavenging your water, treating with the trifecta and underletting SLOWLY. Slowly as in 10-12 minutes for 8-9 gallons. You are giving the trifecta a chance to interface with the grain and remove the oxygen. If you introduce too much too fast the whole process does not work as well.

I hope to make some videos and start a YouTube channel around Low OX brewing with my Foundry. Maybe I will get to it this week or so.

Word to your mother!!!!

 

[Schlenkerla]

I started underletting due to safety. Took the LOB dip, thinking what the hell. I used to hand pour 5 gallons near boiling water into my mash tun cooler to preheat. Then dump it by hand to a second cooler as a HLT. Then add my grain and pour, by hand, my 2nd kettle of strike water into the tun.

I never wore shorts or flip-flops. Tennis shoes jeans and elbow length welders gloves. At being over 50, balance and stability isn't what it used to be, and then add alcohol. So I started to think, I was taking a stupid risk of getting severely burned.

Underlet for safety and for better beer!

 

[mongoose33]

I started underletting due to safety. Took the LOB dip, thinking what the hell. I used to hand pour 5 gallons near boiling water into my mash tun cooler to preheat. Then dump it by hand to a second cooler as a HLT. Then add my grain and pour, by hand, my 2nd kettle of strike water into the tun.

I never wore shorts or flip-flops. Tennis shoes jeans and elbow length welders gloves. At being over 50, balance and stability isn't what it used to be, and then add alcohol. So I started to think, I was taking a stupid risk of getting severely burned.

Underlet for safety and for better beer!

I used to pre-heat the above blue cooler mash tun, but I just added a gallon of boiling water. Close it up, let it sit for 15 minutes, and the entire inside would be warmed up.

 

[fluketamer]

Dough in in my aio is awkward. I want to try underletting by lowering the grain filled basket into the strike water . Would you put rice hulls in first to have them at the bottom. Would you shake out the flour from the basket and put it back on top of the grain bed. Would it matter. Or should I just put the grain in the basket all mixed up?

 

[Bassman2003]

If you are going to stir then you can add the rice hulls after the grain is in the water.

 

[jtratcliff]

I line my malt pipe w/ BIAB bag and just throw everything in... no rice hulls. Slowly lower the pipe in, give a minute or two to fully wet the grains (my pipe has no side perforations, so the water has to percolate up through the grain bed), then a gentle stir. No doughballs.

Just started doing this for my last 2 brew on my AiO. I like how it went. Much easier than trying to dump a bucket of grain and stir at the same time

 

[redrocker652002]

Interesting read. So, if I am reading correctly, I can fill my bag with the crushed grain and then slowly lower it into my kettle? As opposed to lifting a bucket with the grains in it and trying to pour the grain into the kettle while stirring to get it mixed in? I have found it to be a bit difficult to balance the bucket, pour and stir, so I usually recruit an assistant (kid or wife, whoever is around and not mad at me for something else, lol).

 

[Bassman2003]

Yes. It is the next best thing to bringing in the water from below.

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

I have an anvil and, that's all I've done, water heated first grain in the basket, lower down slowly then break up the top with a spoon, this also allows me to add a layer of rice hulls to the bottom and stays in place

 

[redrocker652002]

This is a very cool idea. Might give it a go on my next brew day. Thanks all

 

[Chorgey]

I line my malt pipe w/ BIAB bag and just throw everything in... no rice hulls. Slowly lower the pipe in, give a minute or two to fully wet the grains (my pipe has no side perforations, so the water has to percolate up through the grain bed), then a gentle stir. No doughballs.

Just started doing this for my last 2 brew on my AiO. I like how it went. Much easier than trying to dump a bucket of grain and stir at the same time

With this method, do you mill the grain with a finer crush (as you would with a BIAB)?

How about sparging?

 

[fluketamer]

i wouldnt change the crush. i dont see how it would make a differenc when dougihing in like this but i have yet to do this. i am going to try it this weekend.

this seems a lot easier than trying to dump in the grain .

How about sparging?

i dont see how it would change sparging either.

im still battling with the idea of no sparge. i havent tried it yet but i am very interested. i dont want to fix a working thing so i am reluctant to switch. grain in first will be a big enough change for me on my next brew.

very important: from reading a few threads here and on reddit, ----SLOWLY add the basket or let it sink slowy in . DO NOT push the basket down into the water or you risk overflow of 160 ish strike water. not that hot, but water seepage on the outside can short out the control panel on some of these AIO's.

 

[jtratcliff]

With this method, do you mill the grain with a finer crush (as you would with a BIAB)?

How about sparging?

Yeah, since I have the bag, I still do a pretty fine crush with my corona mill... same crush as I was using when I was doing straight stovetop BIAB in a 10G kettle before my AiO... If I get stuck I can always lift the bag. But so far no issues.

I *have* been sparging with a gallon or two that I hold back from the strike water.... The first few times I did a pour-over sparge with the malt pipe sitting on top of the kettle. You can't really see how the sparge water is coming out of the bottom of the malt pipe, so I wasn't sure if I was getting channeling or not...

The last couple of times, I've done a dunk sparge where I pull the bag and plop it in a smaller 3G kettle on the stove w/ 1-2 gallons pre-heated to mashout temps (not necessary, but easy to do). I stir a few times and let sit until the main AiO kettle gets to the boil then pull the bag (and squeeze it like it owes me money) and add these "2nd runnings" to the boil...

Both pour-over and dunk are a pain, really... Next time I might try no sparge.

I've probably done fewer than a dozen batches on my AiO after coming from a few years of stovetop BIAB, so I'm still figuring out my process...

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

being a long time fly sparger I'm lazy these days so the last gallon or 2 just washes very little off to fill my starting boil, I have recirculated while the basket is in the air and that does help some but I don't care about just a few extra points these days, as long as it's good beer i drink it

 

[fluketamer]

update :

i brewed last week with my aio. i filled the basket with grain and slowly settled it into the water . this was so much easier than trying to pour gran in and stir at the same time or in batches. this "underletting" was less messy and required almost no stirring. i just used my whisk in an up and down motion a few times around the basket and it was thoroughly mixed with much less work. i was 1 point off on my expected gravity but that had more to do with too much sparge water than anything with extraction im pretty sure.

thanks for the tips.

 

[Chorgey]

I have a Grainfather that has the rolled bottom plate, which fits loosely in the grain basket. I'm concerned that if lowering the basket into the strike water, that the bottom plate would rise with the grains (or am I being too paranoid)?

On the other hand, if lowering the basket slowly, there shouldn't be a concern, right?