Two elements one PID?

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Big-D

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I would like to put together a small control panel to run a BIAB setup. The setup I am wanting to do however is not conventional. I want to incorporate a small heat exchanger in order to produce just in time hot water in order to sparge with once the basket has been lifted. That being said, i will have a second heating element, and thermocouple.

keeping in mind that i want to try to keep the control panel as small and simple as possible, is there any way to do this with a single PID/SSR/Contactor? I would like to just be able to throw a three way switch to select which element to turn on, as i do not need them both on at the same time. I will probably have to manually switch the thermocouple wires. (TC2 on the picture is mainly just store the thermocouple not in use)
 

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it would probably be a lot easier to just run the mash element to get to mash in temp, power down the controller, unplug the mash element (or from the element) and plug into the sparge element. like you said you'd have to move the thermocouple as well, or wire two to a on-off-on switch.
 
Not sure 1500 watts is enough for on demand sparge water but I could be wrong. There is a member (brundog I think) that did an on demand sparge water heater using 220 and higher wattage.
 
There is really no need to heat your sparge water, other than to decrease the time required to heat to boiling. And, if you are really worried about time, you should look into going with 240V, or two separate 120V circuits to run two elements. You might also want to reconsider using a timer in the panel. Your phone can take care of your timing requirements cheaper. If you are using thermocouples (rather than PT100-RTD's) then you need to use special thermocouple connectors in order to avoid temperature errors. I would spend more time thinking about just how you plan to operate your system before you spend any money on components for your control panel.

Brew on :mug:
 
BrewManiacEx has exact what you need. It can switch on the sparge heating when the main heating is off when PID algorithm decides that.
 
My old system used a 110 element I wired straight into the wall for the HLT. Once it got to about 170 I just unplugged it. A separate 110 element for my mash was regulated and controlled by a pid. I had to constantly reset my breakers. I boiled on a propane burner. This worked ok, but I am trying to simplify life

I was going to do something similar to this with 220 and I found it I don't have any extra service in my panel, so I am trying to redesign and figure out how to do this with a single 110 element. I want to go single vessel, so I am looking at the brew in a basket constant recirculation method. The one thing I don't like with this method though is the terrible efficiency. I figured to compensate for that I could add a small heat exchanger to introduce water at 170 and sparge to final boil volume. This way I am not having to keep a volume of water hot in my HLT at the same time I am mashing. I think since you sparge so slow I should be able to tune the temperature out of the heat exchanger so that it comes out at 170. Does anyone have experience with this?
 
I used Grainfather with the controller designed by my own. Grainfather is designed to go with Sparging, so I designed the Sparge heating function to solve use the same power socket for Sparge heating and primary heating. To maintain the temperature of mash, the main heating element is turned on for a short time only. During the main heating element is off, the Sparging heating can be turned on. That is a simple logic. I also implemented a delay, at least 20ms, to protect mix of zero-crossing relay and mechanical relay.
Unfortunately, I didn't get to use it before I got sick of the cleaning of Sparging of Grainfather. I turned to BIAC and sometimes Conical-RIMS(Conical to replace the kettle in Kettle-RIMS). I do believe it will work.

You have to clarify why you want to do that. The problem is created by a limit you create. In my case, prevention of triggering the breaker of 20A current is the reason. I code my own controller, so I came out the solution. Other people might not limit the number of PID to ONE and don't care about maximum power used, so they just use two PIDs.
In a nutshell, no constraints, no solution. You can find out the best solution to your exactly specified problem, and you will too many possible solutions if the conditions are not clear.
For example, if you want to use ONE PID and run the elements exclusively. A simple negative logic circuit connect to the the output of PID might be a solution.
 
  1. Running the elements one at a time is to solve popping the circuit breaker.
  2. Running a heat exchanger with a second element is to solve three things,the efficiency loss in using a BIAB system, as well as not needing to have an HLT requiring another vessel taking up more space and having to run a second heading element at the same time to keep it at temperature.
  3. Having everything ran through a control panel with a PID is to try to simplify the whole process.
  4. Not wanting to have two pids/ssr etc is to save money by reusing the existing components in another area of the brew process when they normally would not be in use. Also keeping the size if the control panel small.
 
I built a system to run two 5500W elements with one PID. My rationale was that since both elements could not be on at the same time (30A circuit), no point in having separate PIDs.

I used a switch to control where the low-voltage PID output went. The PID output drives the input to the SSRs. When one of those SSR inputs is "floating" (unconnected), the SSR will be off. A simple SPDT (single pole double throw) switch will work. I bought a small one online, but you can probably find something like that at Home Depot. BTW, most light switches are SPST, which won't work. I believe that 3-way light switches are SPDT internally, so you could use that.

That was probably clear as mud, I know. Ask for clarification if needed.
 
Big-D said:
  1. Running the elements one at a time is to solve popping the circuit breaker.
  2. Running a heat exchanger with a second element is to solve three things,the efficiency loss in using a BIAB system, as well as not needing to have an HLT requiring another vessel taking up more space and having to run a second heading element at the same time to keep it at temperature.
  3. Having everything ran through a control panel with a PID is to try to simplify the whole process.
  4. Not wanting to have two pids/ssr etc is to save money by reusing the existing components in another area of the brew process when they normally would not be in use. Also keeping the size if the control panel small.
Click to expand...

Might help to clarify your setup. Are going to go full electric or a hybrid approach, what is your desired batch size?
 
I agree with bobby I think you need more power, but not necessarily 220V. I know there are system that run from a single 120V circuit but I think part of their effectiveness is the narrow kettle and pushing the limit of what is a boil. If you can find two 120V circuits to use you I think you will be more happy with the results.

I do have a 3 vessel system with two 1500W hot rods and a 1500W RIMS tube. I heat mash and sparge water separately. I heat the mash using one hot rod and the RIMS and it takes me about 30min to get 4 to 5gals to mash temp(60f to 150F). Once to temp I move the hot rod to the HLT and it takes about an hour to get the same amount of water to sparge temp with the single element. I have a simple PID to run a RIMS for mash and boil, but no temp control on sparge water heating as the time to heat matches my normal mash times. I boil with the two hot rods and it takes about 30mins to get from mash temp to boil. I am a fairly patient person, but I don't think I am patient enough to doubling my current times to work from one circuit.
 
ba-brewer said:
I agree with bobby I think you need more power, but not necessarily 220V. I know there are system that run from a single 120V circuit but I think part of their effectiveness is the narrow kettle and pushing the limit of what is a boil. If you can find two 120V circuits to use you I think you will be more happy with the results.

I do have a 3 vessel system with two 1500W hot rods and a 1500W RIMS tube. I heat mash and sparge water separately. I heat the mash using one hot rod and the RIMS and it takes me about 30min to get 4 to 5gals to mash temp(60f to 150F). Once to temp I move the hot rod to the HLT and it takes about an hour to get the same amount of water to sparge temp with the single element. I have a simple PID to run a RIMS for mash and boil, but no temp control on sparge water heating as the time to heat matches my normal mash times. I boil with the two hot rods and it takes about 30mins to get from mash temp to boil. I am a fairly patient person, but I don't think I am patient enough to doubling my current times to work from one circuit.
Click to expand...

Thank you very much for your experience! That gives me a lot to think about. I don't want to have to run extension cords everywhere, but I also don't want to extend my brew day anymore than I have too. is there a higher watt element? i think i can do 30 amp.
 
seems with a 30 amp circuit i can push up to 3600w (30a x 120v). if i use the calculation {(Gallons * Temp Rise (F) / (372 * heat up time (hours))) x 1000 looking for at least 30 minute boil time i should be able to get away with a 2,333w element. if i use a 2500w element it would seem that i would be able to get the wort to boil in under 30 minutes and only use 21 amps.
 
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Just a heads up the first couple beers are going to get all the zinc plating off the element deposited in them which shouldnt hurt anything but dont be surprised when it happens. You also have to be mindful of the steel base rusting.. been there.
 
My opinion, avoid the zinc plated elements. Use stainless instead.

And for what it's worth, I also use 120v. I use two elements only for ramps between rest temps and ramp from mash to boiling. I boil with a single element. A single 1650 watt element has no problem boiling off the recommended 6-8% from a 7.5 gallon starting volume.

A single 120v element will be fine, but as mentioned it will take a touch longer to reach boiling. Don't concern yourself with how long it takes to reach mash temp because you can set it and forget it. I have often heated my water over night while I slept, and that's the beauty of an electric system

I'd recommend getting the Auber EZBoil so you don't need to babysit the ramp to boil. Once it hits the temp you specify, it will alarm and automatically turn the element % to whatever you want to finish the ramp. But with a single 120v element, boil overs may not be something you need to worry about.
 
You can also setup any pid to stop and sound and alarm when say 209 degrees is reached although the EZboil is a bit better for this application than pids having used both myself.... then again if your looking for simple you can plug that right in as well although I would recomment at least a switched outlet or your plug and oulet may become damaged over time from the arching as you plug it in and unplug it under load.
 
I'm of the opinion, not that you asked, that sparging takes away from the simplicity of BIAB and is not necessary unless you absolutely feel like 80% efficiency is worth the effort over the typical 70-75 with no sparge. If you must, there's no reason you can't sparge with cold water as you'll already be running up to a boil while the basket hangs. You can run the 2250w element on 20amp/120 and it will boil.

FYI, you can do on demand water heating but even at 5500 watts, I only got 100F of rise at 1qt per minute.
 
With pre-heated sparge water (as is typical with a three vessel system), the hot sparge water reduces the time required to reach a boil. With a single heating element operating at a time, and using on-demand "heated" sparge water, your time to reach boil will be essentially the same as if you sparged with cold water, and just started heating with the BK element during the sparge. And as Bobby noted above, 1600 - 2200W isn't going to give you "hot" sparge water on demand anyway. Might as well keep it simple and sparge with un-heated water.

Brew on :mug:
 
I used a 30 amp DPDT switch to transfer power from my SSR to either element. The PID probe only goes to my HLT so I can control the water temp for the HERMS system. Just switch the PID to manual mode for the boil.
 
Bobby_M said:
FYI, you can do on demand water heating but even at 5500 watts, I only got 100F of rise at 1qt per minute.
Click to expand...

Interesting, though is that at full volume, Or a heat tube? My heat exchanger is built from 2" stainless pipe (about 12" long). With the heating element installed my liquid volume in the heat exchanger is about a half liter
 
Luckily, my wife just surprised me with a kitchen remodel project. Now, most people would cringe, BUT..I had 2 220v ranges in my kitchen. I am getting rid of one all together, and I am going to get natural gas to replace the other.. meaning, I now have 2 free 220v circuits! WINNING!
 
Big-D said:
Interesting, though is that at full volume, Or a heat tube? My heat exchanger is built from 2" stainless pipe (about 12" long). With the heating element installed my liquid volume in the heat exchanger is about a half liter
Click to expand...
In a RIMS. I did mention 1 qt/minute of flow. However, after watching again I realized I had it wrong. You can get 130F of rise at 1 liter per minute.

 
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Bobby_M said:
In a RIMS. I did mention 1 qt/minute of flow. However, after watching again I realized I had it wrong. You can get 130F of rise at 1 liter per minute.

Click to expand...

Yeah, that's more than enough with 5500. At 120 though it looked like he only got about 30 degreed rise. Which if I start with hot water at about 120, that would still leave me with only 150. Though... when he is using the same 5500 with only 120 he realistically has a 1375w which is 1125w less, or almost half if going with a 2500w element. I am not sure if it's linear, but if it holds close to true, then you would get some here near 60 degrees rise with the actual 2500w element at 120. Starting at 120 degrees hot tap water you could theoretically get to 180 which is more than enough to sparge with. This is all predicated on actually being able to run the 2500w element on a 30a 120v circuit.
 
Big-D said:
Yeah, that's more than enough with 5500. At 120 though it looked like he only got about 30 degreed rise. Which if I start with hot water at about 120, that would still leave me with only 150. Though... when he is using the same 5500 with only 120 he realistically has a 1375w which is 1125w less, or almost half if going with a 2500w element. I am not sure if it's linear, but if it holds close to true, then you would get some here near 60 degrees rise with the actual 2500w element at 120. Starting at 120 degrees hot tap water you could theoretically get to 180 which is more than enough to sparge with. This is all predicated on actually being able to run the 2500w element on a 30a 120v circuit.
Click to expand...
Theres plenty of 240v cartridge heater options in the 2500w range too... Ive never tried using my 1800w rims to heat sparge water but I recently started using it to take my recirculating mash from mash temps to mashout 168 and it takes about 10-15 mins or so to take my mash for an 11 gallon brew session from 150 to 168 at 1.5gpm flowrate (and thats with an extra 3 gallons of liquid under the false bottom) so I dont think even a 1350w rims would have too much trouble heating sparge water on the fly depending on how quickly one sparged and how long the element was for longer contact time.... I recently slowed my sparge flow rate way down from basically rinsing over 10 mins in a fly sparge to sparging over a 30-40 minute period (20% speed on my pwm controlled pumps) and my efficiencies went from 86% average to over 91% for my last three brew sessions since. my last beer brewed on new years day netted me 92.7%
 
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