Nike_Eayrs
Well-Known Member
So I currently use oxy clean for cleaning and J.D Carlson no rinse for my sanitation. Any reason this could be the issue? I'm just looking at this from all angles.
Twang taste in all grain
- Thread starter Nike_Eayrs
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Actually read what I wrote in this thread and replace the word "onestep" with "Ld Carlson no rinse" and pick up a real sanitizer.
Nike_Eayrs
Well-Known Member
Thanks Revvy! My LHBS has always pushed one step, so that's what I have always used. I got home from work last night and tore apart my whole system looking for potential problems, and that was one thing that came to mind. I really am heading back to the drawing board here. The primary reason I switched from extract to all grain was I thought it would eliminate the "taste" in question. Turns out something else was wrong. I'm gonna look for a very simple recipe, use S05 yeast, and keep it cool (I ran out and bought a plastic tub last night) and see if that makes a difference. So many people have been SOOOO helpful on this site, and I can't say thank you enough! I'm gonna keep posting until the issue is resolved and hope someone will find this useful in the future. Cheers!
Use your one step for cleaning do not use it for a sanitizer. It is pretty much just oxy clean. That stuff is definitely not a NO rinse sanitizer. My LHBS sold me a tub of it when I did my first batch. Like a noob I listened, used it and completely ruined the first batch due to it. Twas a shame too. It tasted awesome before I bottled it.
Go get a bottle of Star san, use it, love it, and most importantly do not fear the foam.
Go get a bottle of Star san, use it, love it, and most importantly do not fear the foam.
Brewskii
Well-Known Member
Nike_Eayrs said:
I have been fighting this same yeasty tartness that I believe you are describing and I use all the tools out there and have what I believe is very good control on my temps both hot and cold.
I am trying to perfect a Cream Ale for competition and have had a beer judged with this tartness. Judges passed a lot of yeast comments that had me thinking about autolysis and how the hell does that happen and what I could do about it. BTW I notice this taste in all of my beers so I truly believe it's a process issue.
My 4 th version I just brewed in JAN and bottled
In the 4 th week of jan. I've been keeping
It away from my impatient hands and tasting one per week. Yesterday was week 5 in the bottle and I was really thinking about scrapping my recipie altogether because prior tastes yielded the same thing.
Week 5 -it was like someone flicked a switch! It was totally gone and made an exponential difference in the beer. It was dramatically different and for the better.
My new target is 6 weeks bottle conditioning before passing judgement.
how long are you in the primary? if your processes are good, you should be able to go grain-to-glass with a bottle conditioned cream ale within 5-6 weeks.
![Craft A Brew - Safale S-04 Dry Yeast - Fermentis - English Ale Dry Yeast - For English and American Ales and Hard Apple Ciders - Ingredients for Home Brewing - Beer Making Supplies - [1 Pack]](https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41fVGNh6JfL._SL500_.jpg)
Is that where the BS in LHBS comes from? Don't we wish they stopped selling that.
Brewskii
Well-Known Member
progmac said:
Usually 10-14 days. Using beersmith calculated starter size, stirplate starter, WLP029 pitched into wort aerated with 5 micron diffusing stone of o2 from home depot bottle for 2-3 min, fermenting@65 f with a Ranco controller & freezer w/the temp probe taped to the glass carboy with bubble wrap over the top.
I prime with organic cane sugar to around 2.5 volumes ( usually around 4 oz.). Bottle condition at 70 deg for 2 weeks and age it at 63F after I've confirmed that it's carbed.
I can get clear yellow fizzy beer @ 4 weeks but the flavor of yeasty tartness is overwhelming to me.
Awesome. I was wondering if you were a month in the primary plus six weeks in bottles, that sounded like a really long time. I really like to cold crash the kolsh/alt yeasts. It seems like the hang out in suspension forever if I don't.
scubasteve03
Well-Known Member
I breezed through all of the posts and i didnt notice anything about light or where you stored your fermenters. Could your "twang" be skunkiness from light exposure?
Brewskii
Well-Known Member
progmac said:
Not to sidetrack but, yeah, I love the 029. It clears so well when it's done and its great in my recipe (now that I am able to age it properly).
I did Bier Munchers CO3C with Nottingham once and also noticed this "lightswitch" effect around week 4 in the bottle.
Nike_Eayrs
Well-Known Member
dstranger99
Well-Known Member
My guess is you had the grains in too high of a temp, If your not using a digital thermometer, get one.. It's a lifesaver.
Nike_Eayrs
Well-Known Member
Well I just thought I would update this this thread with some good news! I made an apricot wheat beer, and took the advice given with great results. Instead of using dry yeast, I did some research and made a solid 1 liter starter with San Diego Super Strain. I know it's not a common Wit strain, but I wanted the apricot flavor to take center stage. I mashed at 152, and was very careful not to let it get any warmer than that. I sparged at 168, and ended up hitting 1.050. It fermented in the primary for 3 weeks, and I then transferred to a keg. Ten days later, I sampled and it was great! No off flavors, and it sure didn't taste homemade. I have since made a big IPA and will keg that in the next couple weeks. I am not sure exactly what the problem was, but wanted to say thanks to all who have helped! Cheers!
Glad to hear I too switched from extract to all grain from a weird taste I could swear was from the extract. Switched to ag with same results lol. Did two batches with similair tastes and gave up for about 6 months. Just recently got back around to brewing again and brewed the bells 2h clone and going to try going through my processes step by step and making changes till that twang is gone. Cheers
Nike_Eayrs
Well-Known Member
That was my exact reason to making the move to all grain! My honest bet is that I was under pitching, or getting the grains to hot. I am just happy that the issue has subsided. Good luck!
Yea I made a starter in one of the previous batches but was misunderstanding and made like 1 cup starters lol I pitched a massive 2L starter to this brew. Yea I was so bummed after switching and same thing. But I've made changes and will get it figured out.
Yes the naivety that one way mode of brewing is better than another, and the reason for "off flavors" when in truth it's not the extract or the grain that is causing off flavors, but brewing practice. What MOST of us on here have been saying for years. Great beer or crappy beer can be made with extract, just as great beer or crappy beer can be made with all grain...
Extract is NOTHING more or different than what all grain brewers do, EXTRACT the sugars from the grain, only done by a maltser and not us...NOTHING MORE.
What YOU the brewer does with it is what makes the difference in a great or ****ty beer. Not whether you used extract or made your own.
Extract is NOTHING more or different than what all grain brewers do, EXTRACT the sugars from the grain, only done by a maltser and not us...NOTHING MORE.
What YOU the brewer does with it is what makes the difference in a great or ****ty beer. Not whether you used extract or made your own.
Nike_Eayrs
Well-Known Member
Well said! I was almost ready to give up on brewing, thinking that it would never tast like a craft beer I bought. Long story short, attention to detail is incredibly important. I'm actually thinking of trying an extract batch again just to see, lol! I
Apologies for replying to a year-old thread, but the subject is perfectly relevant to my situation. I'm wondering if now that another year has passed, have you completely eliminated the twang? And if so, exactly what was it that caused it?
I gave up brewing back in the 90's due to the twang, then started up again at the end of last year. Since December, I've got 3 batches completed to the drinking stage. So far I'm one for three. My first and third batches are both basically ruined by the twang. The first batch was partial mash and used S-04. The second and third were AG with liquid yeast and ample starters. I try to control fermentation temperature to the best of my means. The 3rd batch self-rose to around 78F within 24 hours of pitching. I packed ice around it and got it back to 68 within 6 or 8 hours, but maybe that's where it went bad. Like your original post indicated, twang seems to be the only problem with the beers. There's a great beer underneath it.
I'm about ready to give up again due to the twang. I have two more batches in my pipeline. I really dread 'tasting day' now because when I taste twang, I know it's all over. Four months of aging in the bottle has not improved the twang...it just won't go away.
BrewinBromanite
Well-Known Member
Chato - I used to get the "twang" occasionally during my extract w/ specialty grain days, and some partial mash batches. And no, aging doesn't always help if it's pretty bad. Once I had more of my processes down, batches got way better. At the time I was doing the swamp cooler method in a spare bathtub. Filled tub about halfway full, shirt over carboys/buckets, fan pointed at them, etc. Works great to maintain cool temps - if you're careful. The first 24-72 hours are the most critical. Those batches where the temp shot up in the first couple days, even for a relatively short period of time, seemed to be the batches with the most "twang." You have to really watch the temps those first couple days. I've since moved to AG, and haven't had a bad batch -- but I just coincidentally also got automated temp control at the same time I made that move, plus a lot more experience and improvements on many other areas along the way, so I can't really attribute the lack of twang to AG. I firmly believe precise temp control during all stages from mash, boil, fermentation -and even bottle conditioning, are extremely important. As an earlier poster commented, I am curious to try another extract batch, now with temp control, to see if the twang is still there. Like I said, the swamp cooler can work really great - IF you are good with the temps, Especially during those critical first few days. You have to avoid those big swings in temps. Aside from that it could be caused by numerous other areas in your process. What is a typical recipe for you? Boil volume, top off water? That might help to diagnose the issue as well.
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I wouldn't say that I have a typical recipe. The three recent batches I've done were a partial mash version of Dogfish Head 90-minute IPA with 10 lbs of grain and 6 lbs of LME, an all-grain Zombie Dust clone from a HBT thread, and an AG robust porter I designed myself. Full boil volume - no top off water. The DFH 90 and the porter both have significant twang. Not undrinkable, but definitely not brews to be proud of. The ZD was great.
I'm planning on trying a water bath on the next batch. The porter definitely went high (78-79 F) during the first 24 hours of fermentation. The DFH was my first batch in about 20 years and I was still gathering equipment. I didn't have a fermometer at that time, so it could have fermented high also. The ZD stayed below 71.
BrewinBromanite
Well-Known Member
Judging by your response, your "twang" could very well be attributed to fermentation temps getting too high during initial fermentation. I can't stress enough how controlling that one factor dramatically improved my brews. I was pretty frustrated with some batches, as well, when the rest of my process seemed pretty solid - except for controlled ferm-temps. If you can get your hands on a cheap chest cooler/fridge and a temp controller, it makes life -- and beer - much better. Or, if you stick with water bath/swamp cooler, just monitor temps carefully the first few days and adjust as needed with frozen water bottles to keep below 70, mid to low 60's even better for many ale strains (I love WLP 007 for several styles). Also be sure to check each yeast strains' specific temp range. Some, like Belgians, do particularly well at slightly warmer temps, so might be more forgiving with your setup. Regardless, from my limited experience, the low end of the published temp range seems to produce the cleanest beer, with less yeast-produced off flavors. Other culprits could be ph or water chemistry - but I can't comment on either of those possibilities, as store bought ozarka water seems to have done me ok at this point, so I haven't dabbled much with changing those factors. Good luck!
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Nike_Eayrs
Well-Known Member
So one of my pet peeves is people post things a rarely follow up. I am trying to one at a time to go back and relay what I discovered. My theory on this one is I got the grains way too hot while mashing. I warmed them on the stove top over med-high heat and tranferred to the mash tun (rookie mistake). The longer it was in the bottle, the more it subsided but it never went away. I have since made similar recipes with no twang behind it. I'm not for sure this was the issue, but it was the only step in the process I have changed. Now I add hot water to the cooler and away we go. Hope this helps anyone with a similar issue!
I think you're right about this, that fermentation temp is the culprit. It also seems to be a pretty hard thing to get under control without investing in more expensive equipment. I don't have space for a fridge or freezer so I'll have to keep working on the water bath.
I brewed my next batch, an APA, and had big problems controlling temps during the first two days, even with a water bath. I created a separate thread here:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/fermentation-water-bath-fiasco-474299/
The twang in my porter has gotten worse and now its also tasting like cardboard, which I understand means its oxidizing. It's gross. I think those bottles will be poured out.
