Trying to simulate British real ale...

[ba-brewer]

Gots one of doze minus the red handle. Used it last week in fact. I think it was finding room for a larger nitro tank and the price of all the fixings that had me dragging me feet.

 

[ba-brewer]

This is my wrench

This is my latest Bitter, WLP022 95% Maris Otter 5% Carastan

 

[J_Flint]

This is my wrench
View attachment 662653
This is my latest Bitter, WLP022 95% Maris Otter 5% Carastan
View attachment 662654

That looks like a nice, tight head. Was that poured through a normal faucet?

 

[ba-brewer]

Yes, a perlick flow control forced. Full volume mash at 152, carb level may be higher than a traditional bitter I don't have multiple regulators.

 

[Steveruch]

Bottle conditioned beer meets the definition of real ale.

 

[J_Flint]

Yes, a perlick flow control forced. Full volume mash at 152, carb level may be higher than a traditional bitter I don't have multiple regulators.

How do you like theWLP022? Is it much different than WLP002?

 

[ba-brewer]

WLP022 has a light fruit punch like flavor to me, getting some diacetyl and biscuit in the aroma. I will use it again.

I think it is somewhat similar to wy1469, more esters and diacetyl but less malt aroma.

I have never used wlp002, but have used wyeast 1968 which is suppose to be similar. I would say wlp022 has more esters and diacetyl than 1968 and malt comes through better. To be fair though I have not used 1968 in a while and when I did I used more late additions hops which might have covered up the yeast character.
​

 

[J_Flint]

WLP022 has a light fruit punch like flavor to me, getting some diacetyl and biscuit in the aroma. I will use it again.

I think it is somewhat similar to wy1469, more esters and diacetyl but less malt aroma.

I have never used wlp002, but have used wyeast 1968 which is suppose to be similar. I would say wlp022 has more esters and diacetyl than 1968 and malt comes through better. To be fair though I have not used 1968 in a while and when I did I used more late additions hops which might have covered up the yeast character.
​

Is the 022 available year round?

 

[ba-brewer]

No, it is a vault yeast. Wyeast 1469 is a year round yeast.

I see wlp006 in the January/febuary/march seasonal offering now. I recall that had decent flavor when I used it last, but I don't have good notes for it.

 

[J_Flint]

No, it is a vault yeast. Wyeast 1469 is a year round yeast.

I see wlp006 in the January/febuary/march seasonal offering now. I recall that had decent flavor when I used it last, but I don't have good notes for it.

How do you go about ordering a vault yeast? Can I order direct through White Labs website? Or do I have to shop around the online vendors?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Aside from the lower carbonation and natural carb/conditioning (which may or may not make a flavor difference vs force carb)

Oh it does make a difference - you get a finer carbonation that is less "intrusive" and more persistent (compare the flabby big bubbles in Coke with the fine mousse of naturally-conditioned champagne). But it's not just the bubble size and fizziness, perhaps the main problem with kegging British styles is that the actual taste of the carbonic acid from excess carbonation ruins the delicate balance of the beer. Nitro helps with some of that but doesn't solve it.

The very slight oxidation you get in cask can also be beneficial. It tends to meld the flavours together to form a harmonious whole. Sometimes you don't want that, in the same way that a fruit salad benefits from being able to taste the burst of a grape or the discrete taste of a pineapple chunk, but for traditional bitter you generally do. Oxidation can knock a bit of a flat spot in beers that depend heavily on modern fruit-flavoured hops, it really depends on the beer. One of the nice things about the modern beer scene in Britain is that you occasionally get the chance to taste the same beer on keg and cask (and sometimes on bottle and/or can) - and I can safely say that I've had beers that were best suited to each of the four main formats - and it's not always the one you think it will be!

As has been mentioned, sparklers are a regional thing and really need beers to be brewed specifically for them, to allow for some of the flavour being knocked out by the sparkler. But even up north you'll find CAMRA festivals serving cask on gravity, which obviously requires a lot less plumbing and is something to perhaps consider, particularly since North American brewers are convinced that bitter has 5+% crystal which is far more of a southern thing. If you insist on making bitter with >5% crystal, you don't need a sparkler.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

How do you go about ordering a vault yeast? Can I order direct through White Labs website? Or do I have to shop around the online vendors?

In general the actual Vault strains have to be ordered via the White Labs website where they wait until they've got enough orders to make it worth producing them, and then every few years they do a mass release of all the Vault strains (as they did last summer).

The three seasonal releases per quarter will be available from better White Lab stockists but can usually be ordered by any of them.

WLP041 is a useful one as it's a core strain for White Labs and despite the name is British - it's not flashy but has an easy drinkability to it which is definitely typical of British beer.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

In Britain itself, there has lately been a massive shift to nitro "smooth" beers and even full on, carbonated keg beer

Not really lately - there was a huge fad for Big Beer putting everything on nitro some 25-30 years ago - nitro lager, "creamflow" ales, all sorts. But aside from Guinness and a couple of bottom-end macro bitters it's pretty much disappeared from the mass market "lately".

And yes there is a lot more keg ale than there ever was - but it's for styles following the US model, there's very little "traditional" British beer being served that way. In fact traditional Fuggles 'n' Goldings styles are arguably more associated with cask than ever before - and you could say that's part of their problem.

 

[J_Flint]

Oh it does make a difference - you get a finer carbonation that is less "intrusive" and more persistent (compare the flabby big bubbles in Coke with the fine mousse of naturally-conditioned champagne). But it's not just the bubble size and fizziness, perhaps the main problem with kegging British styles is that the actual taste of the carbonic acid from excess carbonation ruins the delicate balance of the beer. Nitro helps with some of that but doesn't solve it.

The very slight oxidation you get in cask can also be beneficial. It tends to meld the flavours together to form a harmonious whole. Sometimes you don't want that, in the same way that a fruit salad benefits from being able to taste the burst of a grape or the discrete taste of a pineapple chunk, but for traditional bitter you generally do. Oxidation can knock a bit of a flat spot in beers that depend heavily on modern fruit-flavoured hops, it really depends on the beer. One of the nice things about the modern beer scene in Britain is that you occasionally get the chance to taste the same beer on keg and cask (and sometimes on bottle and/or can) - and I can safely say that I've had beers that were best suited to each of the four main formats - and it's not always the one you think it will be!

As has been mentioned, sparklers are a regional thing and really need beers to be brewed specifically for them, to allow for some of the flavour being knocked out by the sparkler. But even up north you'll find CAMRA festivals serving cask on gravity, which obviously requires a lot less plumbing and is something to perhaps consider, particularly since North American brewers are convinced that bitter has 5+% crystal which is far more of a southern thing. If you insist on making bitter with >5% crystal, you don't need a sparkler.

So you think that natural conditioning creates finer bubbles? And you're saying that bitter should not contain more than 5% crystal? Care to share a good recipe? I always have trouble choosing one and would much prefer a true British model, than my own or someone else's Americanized version.

I've always had trouble believing that just a few ounces has much an effect on the resultant flavor. Like...at 5% does that even contribute anything to the beer?

I get what you're saying about excess carbonation ruining delicate flavors. But if a British style were kegged, and force carbed to an appropriate level, say one ish volumes, wouldn't that be okay? After having trouble with my British yeasts producing odd flavors from bottle conditioning I just worry that another batch will end up cruddy.

Also if you could choose any widely available yeast for a good British ale, what would it be? I've heard good things about WLP023, WY1469, Wlp002 which I've used a lot and am only marginally happy with, and you mentioned WLP041 which I've been afraid to try because of negative things I've heard. But you've got me intrigued now because I am fascinated to hear what British folks have to say about brewing their own beers.

 

[ba-brewer]

How do you go about ordering a vault yeast? Can I order direct through White Labs website? Or do I have to shop around the online vendors?

The vault is on hiatus, but there are still seasonal vault releases.
Look at your LHBS that carries seasonal or who will order it for you, but you can also order direct from whitelabs.

Click on order online from the top of the main menu.
Click on yeast
Click on vault
click on yeast
Click on check available

WLP006 says out of stock so maybe main page is for last year or they have not done a production run yet.
You can email the customer service department and they will tell if WLP006 is going to into production soon.

I live in California so shipping is not bad for 2 day(was overnight), less than $20, but I order a few strains to make it feel less painful. The good thing is the stuff you get from ordering direct is fresh.

edit: I see wlp030 shows available, some people have had good luck with that one. It has seemed clean for me in the past and have not had consistent attenuations but that could be my personal problem. I have a batch with wlp030 conditioning now but have tasted it yet.
edit: rechecked wlp030 and it shows available but not in homebrew packages, sorry

 

[Schlenkerla]

Oh it does make a difference - you get a finer carbonation that is less "intrusive" and more persistent (compare the flabby big bubbles in Coke with the fine mousse of naturally-conditioned champagne). But it's not just the bubble size and fizziness, perhaps the main problem with kegging British styles is that the actual taste of the carbonic acid from excess carbonation ruins the delicate balance of the beer. Nitro helps with some of that but doesn't solve it.

The very slight oxidation you get in cask can also be beneficial. It tends to meld the flavours together to form a harmonious whole. Sometimes you don't want that, in the same way that a fruit salad benefits from being able to taste the burst of a grape or the discrete taste of a pineapple chunk, but for traditional bitter you generally do. Oxidation can knock a bit of a flat spot in beers that depend heavily on modern fruit-flavoured hops, it really depends on the beer. One of the nice things about the modern beer scene in Britain is that you occasionally get the chance to taste the same beer on keg and cask (and sometimes on bottle and/or can) - and I can safely say that I've had beers that were best suited to each of the four main formats - and it's not always the one you think it will be!

As has been mentioned, sparklers are a regional thing and really need beers to be brewed specifically for them, to allow for some of the flavour being knocked out by the sparkler. But even up north you'll find CAMRA festivals serving cask on gravity, which obviously requires a lot less plumbing and is something to perhaps consider, particularly since North American brewers are convinced that bitter has 5+% crystal which is far more of a southern thing. If you insist on making bitter with >5% crystal, you don't need a sparkler.

You're suggesting for color to use invert over crystal. Right?

 

[Robert65]

For color per se, the British brewers conventionally use brewers caramel, aka class III ammonia caramel. It's available in homebrew quantities from British homebrew retailers if you can swallow the shipping, but only by the drum over here. (Standard burnt sugar caramel, due to its charge, is not stable in beer. It will complex with proteins and both will precipitate.) Invert color (really flavor) is chosen to suit the beer, but not necessarily expected to suffice for color adjustment. Although it will add a bit of flavor unlike brewers caramel, you can try Sinamar as the least flavor-intrusive colorant we can usually access.

FWIW here's my favorite British pale ale template: Chevallier pale malt, 15% no. 1 or 2 invert, stodgy English hops (you know the usual suspects) all in at copper up.

If you must use a modern malt (and in the scheme of things, MO is quite modern,) yes, even 1-2% light crystal can correct the malt flavor. It should be used to accent the sweetness of the pale malt, not to make any identifiable contribution of its own.

 

[J_Flint]

For color per se, the British brewers conventionally use brewers caramel, aka class III ammonia caramel. It's available in homebrew quantities from British homebrew retailers if you can swallow the shipping, but only by the drum over here. (Standard burnt sugar caramel, due to its charge, is not stable in beer. It will complex with proteins and both will precipitate.) Invert color (really flavor) is chosen to suit the beer, but not necessarily expected to suffice for color adjustment. Although it will add a bit of flavor unlike brewers caramel, you can try Sinamar as the least flavor-intrusive colorant we can usually access.

FWIW here's my favorite British pale ale template: Chevallier pale malt, 15% no. 1 or 2 invert, stodgy English hops (you know the usual suspects) all in at copper up.

If you must use a modern malt (and in the scheme of things, MO is quite modern,) yes, even 1-2% light crystal can correct the malt flavor. It should be used to accent the sweetness of the pale malt, not to make any identifiable contribution of its own.

Why choose the invert in the first place? From what I've collected it contributes little to the flavor of the beer and really just thins it out. Is this assumption incorrect? If so please explain why one would choose it over some more malt, or plain table sugar...

 

[Qhrumphf]

Why choose the invert in the first place? From what I've collected it contributes little to the flavor of the beer and really just thins it out. Is this assumption incorrect? If so please explain why one would choose it over some more malt, or plain table sugar...

Invert provides a LOT of character, especially the darker inverts.

 

[Robert65]

Why choose the invert in the first place. From what I've collected it contributes little to the flavor of the beer and really just thins it out. Is this assumption incorrect? If so please explain why one would choose it over some more malt, or plain table sugar...

Both because of the base, raw cane sugar, and the process of manufacturing the Invert, it does indeed contribute rich, luscious flavors quite unlike either table sugar or the raw cane sugar it is made from. It's sort of the magical, secret ingredient for getting an authentic flavor. I wouldn't have believed it until I took the trouble. There are indeed British beers that use less flavorful sugars, such even glucose, to lighten the beer (AFAIK even the revered Marston's Pedigree is in this camp.) But Invert is its own thing, long considered not an adjunct, but an essential fermentable in its own right alongside malt.

 

[J_Flint]

Both because of the base, raw cane sugar, and the process of manufacturing the Invert, it does indeed contribute rich, luscious flavors quite unlike either table sugar or the raw cane sugar it is made from. It's sort of the magical, secret ingredient for getting an authentic flavor. I wouldn't have believed it until I took the trouble. There are indeed British beers that use less flavorful sugars, such even glucose, to lighten the beer (AFAIK even the revered Marston's Pedigree is in this camp.) But Invert is its own thing, long considered not an adjunct, but an essential fermentable in its own right alongside malt.

Okay well I guess I'll have to give that a shot then. Also...whatchu mean by copper up? Flame out?

 

[Robert65]

Okay well I guess I'll have to give that a shot then. Also...whatchu mean by copper up? Flame out?

"Copper up" is Brit speak for start of boil. Sorry, I was caught up in the British spirit! I often add the hops as FWH.

 

[J_Flint]

"Copper up" is Brit speak for start of boil. Sorry, I was caught up in the British spirit! I often add the hops as FWH.

Ah I see. Okay that makes more sense. What color invert would you be using for most typical bitters?

Also are you implying you wouldn't be using any late hop additions?

 

[Schlenkerla]

Why choose the invert in the first place? From what I've collected it contributes little to the flavor of the beer and really just thins it out. Is this assumption incorrect? If so please explain why one would choose it over some more malt, or plain table sugar...

FYI. - This might be better than plagerizing.

Let me know if you can't make out any of the text.

 

[Robert65]

Ah I see. Okay that makes more sense. What color invert would you be using for most typical bitters?

Also are you implying you wouldn't be using any late hop additions?

Anything from no. 1 to no. 3 depending on what I had on hand, and it's a flexible, stylistic choice anyway. If I'm going for something very traditional, I probably wouldn't use a late hop addition. Late hop character is really an American, or more recently adopted British, characteristic.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Preceding three pages....

Should have shared these first.

 

[J_Flint]

FYI. - This might be better than plagerizing.

Let me know if you can't make out any of the text.

View attachment 662926View attachment 662927View attachment 662928View attachment 662929View attachment 662930

I absolutely could. Thank you for posting. I may have to find that book. Looks like a good one!

 

[Schlenkerla]

Ah I see. Okay that makes more sense. What color invert would you be using for most typical bitters?

Also are you implying you wouldn't be using any late hop additions?

J_Flint. - See post#23 in this thread. It's simple-stupid to make #1 thru #4.

You've reminded my to get my one perlick off for the stout and to make a few fresh inverts.

I like using Demerara.... It's kind of rummy like in taste.

 

[J_Flint]

Anything from no. 1 to no. 3 depending on what I had on hand, and it's a flexible, stylistic choice anyway. If I'm going for something very traditional, I probably wouldn't use a late hop addition. Late hop character is really an American, or more recently adopted British, characteristic.

So if not using any late additions, does hop variety matter much less since flavor nuances would be less detectable? I know there are differing opinions on the flavor contribution of a "bittering" hop addition.

 

[Robert65]

So if not using any late additions, does hop variety matter much less since flavor nuances would be less detectable? I know there are differing opinions on the flavor contribution of a "bittering" hop addition.

This can be a great way of learning not to believe the myth that hop character is lost when added early on. Flavor and aroma do persist. You'd be surprised how many hoppy German beers, for example, have only one, early addition (spoiler: most of them) and the same is true of British beers. Historically, even when brewers used multiple additions, this was in the days of unfortunately long boils, and rarely was there an addition in the last hour.