Trying to simulate British real ale...

[J_Flint]

Hey all,
I've been on a kick with true British beer lately and have come to adore real ale served from a cask/beer engine. I've been trying to think of ways to emulate this unique serving process as I feel it yields a much different result. I have a spare FLEX+ fermentor and as some may know this unit can take up to 15psi.

I was thinking about using it as a sort of cask/brite tank. If I transferred my fined and finished beer to this unit, purged as per a normal kegging method, and pressurized to about 10psi to yield somewhere in the ballpark of 1.5 volumes, and held it at cellar temp, I'm wondering if I rigged up a sparkler from a beer engine to the end of the TC valve if this would....well...work? My main concern is will 10psi be enough pressure to push the beer through the valve body and past a sparkler, to create that luscious and beautiful head that cask ale develops when served in a similar manner?

The valve is obviously a short path to travel so there would not be much resistance like that in a typical 8ft beer line. I know most stout faucets require about 30psi, but like I said, that beer must also overcome the resistance in the line first.

If anyone has had any luck trying a similar process I'm all ears!

 

[bkboiler]

I was wondering this too...
Was contemplating the BYO build your own beer engine article...but attaching to a very short run of beer line and at around 5 psi...
Alternatively they make a stout spout for my current intertap faucet (which I currently have around 6ft of beer line and is very badly balanced...)
So that could be an option for you as well!

 

[J_Flint]

I was wondering this too...
Was contemplating the BYO build your own beer engine article...but attaching to a very short run of beer line and at around 5 psi...
Alternatively they make a stout spout for my current intertap faucet (which I currently have around 6ft of beer line and is very badly balanced...)
So that could be an option for you as well!

I thought about the stout faucet. Do you run that on just CO2? I have no desire to mess around with nitro.

 

[bkboiler]

Yep it works for CO2 as well!
https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B01MS1N42U/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_-YJiEb3NKE9HD
I believe the faucet portion is harder to find these days due to a production / intellectual property dispute.

I was planning to do a 3' or 4' line and the intertap shank has very low restriction...
I believe this should balance at 41F (since I don't want my other beers to be warm), which means I'll need to pour into a room temp glass to help warm the beer up...

 

[madscientist451]

The easiest way is to use a corny keg which is laid down on its side and tilted at an angle with the bottom of the keg elevated.
The beer is served out of the the "in" port which will be rotated so its lower than the out port. The keg is tilted to the dip tube is in an air space at the bottom of the keg, a piece of tubing is attached to the "out" port to admit air.

https://beerandbrewing.com/using-a-cornelius-keg-for-cask-ale/

 

[J_Flint]

Yep it works for CO2 as well!
https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B01MS1N42U/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_-YJiEb3NKE9HD
I believe the faucet portion is harder to find these days due to a production / intellectual property dispute.

I was planning to do a 3' or 4' line and the intertap shank has very low restriction...
I believe this should balance at 41F (since I don't want my other beers to be warm), which means I'll need to pour into a room temp glass to help warm the beer up...

So you think the intertap with a stout spout would work well with a very short line and normal serving pressure around 10-12 psi? I'm not familiar with those so I'm really just having a hard time thinking it would do more than just dribble out at such a low pressure. These normally operate around 35 or 40psi, no?

 

[J_Flint]

The easiest way is to use a corny keg which is laid down on its side and tilted at an angle with the bottom of the keg elevated.
The beer is served out of the the "in" port which will be rotated so its lower than the out port. The keg is tilted to the dip tube is in an air space at the bottom of the keg, a piece of tubing is attached to the "out" port to admit air.

https://beerandbrewing.com/using-a-cornelius-keg-for-cask-ale/

What sort of dispensing tap is used? How would you emulate a sparkler?

 

[madscientist451]

Since the beer would be dispensed by gravity, I don't thing a sparkler would work. Unless you want to spend $200-$400 for a beer engine, you have to make some compromises.
Some say you don't really need a sparkler anyway:

https://beerandbrewing.com/dictionary/VzSX9dhtnh/

 

[J_Flint]

Since the beer would be dispensed by gravity, I don't thing a sparkler would work. Unless you want to spend $200-$400 for a beer engine, you have to make some compromises.
Some say you don't really need a sparkler anyway:

https://beerandbrewing.com/dictionary/VzSX9dhtnh/

Hm. I kinda wondered how different gravity served ale is from that out of a beer engine, with or without the sparkler. I really love the creamy head and mouthfeel the sparkler creates.

 

[Robert65]

Sparklers are a Northern thing, as is foam, generally. Southerners think they're being cheated out of beer they've paid for if there's a even a paper thin wisp of foam below the brim of the glass. A more legitimate complaint might be, that after you build any head of foam from cask ale with its low carbonation, there's little condition left in the beer and the pint drinks thin and dull.

If you want to serve by either gravity or beer engine without introducing either pressure (risking excess carbonation) or oxygen, search "cask breather." This is a sort of regulator-like device that just admits enough CO2 to make up the space vacated by the beer drawn off, without building pressure.

Another option is a key keg, where the beer is contained in an inner bladder and pushed out by gas pushed into the keg outside the bag, so there is no contact with either air or dispense gas.

 

[J_Flint]

Sparklers are a Northern thing, as is foam, generally. Southerners think they're being cheated out of beer they've paid for if there's a even a paper thin wisp of foam below the brim of the glass. A more legitimate complaint might be, that after you build any head of foam from cask ale with its low carbonation, there's little condition left in the beer and the pint drinks thin and dull.

If you want to serve by either gravity or beer engine without introducing either pressure (risking excess carbonation) or oxygen, search "cask breather." This is a sort of regulator-like device that just admits enough CO2 to make up the space vacated by the beer drawn off, without building pressure.

Another option is a key keg, where the beer is contained in an inner bladder and pushed out by gas pushed into the keg outside the bag, so there is no contact with either air or dispense gas.

Hey a fellow Clevelander!...or sort of. Yeah I had read about the opinionated following based on region in that regard. I think I'll try and experiment with just leaving a keg out of the keezer since my basement stays a good 56-58 degrees normally. Maybe run the keg on 10psi and see how that is. Cask is normally served with about 1.8 volumes of co2 right?

 

[Robert65]

Hey a fellow Clevelander!...or sort of. Yeah I had read about the opinionated following based on region in that regard. I think I'll try and experiment with just leaving a keg out of the keezer since my basement stays a good 56-58 degrees normally. Maybe run the keg on 10psi and see how that is. Cask is normally served with about 1.8 volumes of co2 right?

Yeah, even if not a fellow Clevelander, fellow sufferer of Cleveland sports agony, right? Yeah, that's probably about the range for carbonation. I'll be interested in how you do, if there's a simple way to use our regular draught equipment to get something resembling cask ale.

 

[J_Flint]

Yeah, even if not a fellow Clevelander, fellow sufferer of Cleveland sports agony, right? Yeah, that's probably about the range for carbonation. I'll be interested in how you do, if there's a simple way to use our regular draught equipment to get something resembling cask ale.

Well I'll definitely be cheating by using gas, as I don't relish the thought of 5gal of beer spoiling before I can drink it. I think I'll eventually get a 1gal corny for that purpose. I've also got one of those 5L mini kegs/casks. Not too fond of it, though I haven't even ever used it.

Aside from the lower carbonation and natural carb/conditioning (which may or may not make a flavor difference vs force carb) what would you say the flavor differences of real cask ale are?

I've only had cask ale a couple times at Buckeye Beer Engine in Lakewood and all I could pick up on was the creamy head from the use of a sparkler, and a fairly flat-ish resultant beer. Still very enjoyable.

 

[Robert65]

Long time since I've been back over there, so my palate memory may be a little weak. But beyond the soft carbonation, the real difference between real British beers and American attempts comes from recipe and fermentation. British brewers almost universally use very simple recipes, like often just pale malt, sugar, and a single hop addition, and let very expressive yeast do the talking.

 

[ba-brewer]

There is another thread, but here is one you can take a look at.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/beer-engine-or-jockey-box-like-beer-engine.161736/
search @Schlenkerla and beer engine and I am sure you can the other thread with other people approaches.

 

[ba-brewer]

This the thread I was thinking about. There is information on how to use a gas(LPG) regulator to feed low pressure CO2 to keep your beer from getting oxidized.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/fellow-homebrewers-meet-my-new-beer-engine.10529/page-4

 

[hopjuice_71]

I lived in northern England for a while and really enjoyed how they served their cask ales - with a little foam as @Robert65 said. I have fairly successfully emulated this by serving naturally carbonated bitter (low carbonation) out of a corny keg using this: https://byo.com/project/build-a-beer-engine-projects/. Pretty low budget and note the DIY sparkler. No need to turn the keg on its side or anything. You can open the PRV to let in air as the beer is pumped out. This is great for parties when the keg will be killed in a night. I get a kick out of seeing how the beer evolves over the evening as it oxidizes. For kegs that won't be consumed quickly I just hook up my CO2 to it at around 4-5 PSI or so so that the headspace remains all CO2.

 

[Schlenkerla]

There is another thread, but here is one you can take a look at.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/beer-engine-or-jockey-box-like-beer-engine.161736/

search @Schlenkerla and beer engine and I am sure you can the other thread with other people approaches.

I have a Valterra Silver RV Rocket Hand Pump and five 1 gallon poly pins that collapse. This works well if you can keep the pins cool. This will NOT serve clear beer as the pins contraction disturbs the lees.

The Rocket hand pump works better with a corny keg and a make shift cask breather. I have a 2 psi propane regulator that pushes 2 psi to your keg. This is only used briefly at shut down after drinking. You disconnect the rocket quick disconnect. Open the gas manifold to allow 2psi into the keg. For this to work hassle free during serving you have to kill the gas and have PRV open during serving.

As things are now, many years later, i prefer using a stout faucet and Nitrogen. It's less fumbling around. I only use nitro to push beer through the facet. I turn it off after I'm done drinking. Naturally carbonate with a spund valve.

 

[J_Flint]

I have a Valterra Silver RV Rocket Hand Pump and five 1 gallon poly pins that collapse. This works well if you can keep the pins cool. This will NOT serve clear beer as the pins contraction disturbs the lees.

The Rocket hand pump works better with a corny keg and a make shift cask breather. I have a 2 psi propane regulator that pushes 2 psi to your keg. This is only used briefly at shut down after drinking. You disconnect the rocket quick disconnect. Open the gas manifold to allow 2psi into the keg. For this to work hassle free during serving you have to kill the gas and have PRV open during serving.

As things are now, many years later, i prefer using a stout faucet and Nitrogen. It's less fumbling around. I only use nitro to push beer through the facet. I turn it off after I'm done drinking. Naturally carbonate with a spund valve.View attachment 662475

So you use straight nitrogen? Or a beer-gas mix? I wouldn't be so hesitant to get into nitro if I was confident I could obtain beer-gas for an affordable price.

 

[Schlenkerla]

So you use straight nitrogen? Or a beer-gas mix? I wouldn't be so hesitant to get into nitro if I was confident I could obtain beer-gas for an affordable price.

Beer gas mix 60/40. I get a 5lb bottle of it for $20. It lasts a long time if you make sure your have no plumbing leaks. I also make a point of shutting it off after I'm serving. It pushes at 25-30 psi.

 

[Robert65]

I have a Valterra Silver RV Rocket Hand Pump and five 1 gallon poly pins that collapse. This works well if you can keep the pins cool. This will NOT serve clear beer as the pins contraction disturbs the lees.

The Rocket hand pump works better with a corny keg and a make shift cask breather. I have a 2 psi propane regulator that pushes 2 psi to your keg. This is only used briefly at shut down after drinking. You disconnect the rocket quick disconnect. Open the gas manifold to allow 2psi into the keg. For this to work hassle free during serving you have to kill the gas and have PRV open during serving.

As things are now, many years later, i prefer using a stout faucet and Nitrogen. It's less fumbling around. I only use nitro to push beer through the facet. I turn it off after I'm done drinking. Naturally carbonate with a spund valve.View attachment 662475

In Britain itself, there has lately been a massive shift to nitro "smooth" beers and even full on, carbonated keg beer (the stuff that got CAMRA's dander up in the first place.) Though real ale is still beloved, successive generations of consumers become more inured to these alternatives. This has been driven by the kind of practical concerns you mention. Even in the trade, it's not easy to move traditional cask beer fast enough to keep it fresh, let alone find or afford the skilled labor required. For the homebrewer it's the same question. Any other method than direct, air-exposed dispense of naturally conditioned beer will not reproduce the same result. But how far is it worth going? What will give you results you're happy with in the circumstances you have to accept? Maybe for a special party, draining a cask of real ale would be memorable fun. But will it be feasible on an everyday basis? At home and in the pub, it may be more reasonable to have not-quite-real ale always at its peak, rather than real ale that's always "off," reserving real ale for the niches where it can be coddled and appreciated, and unflinchingly dumped out as soon as it starts to deteriorate.

 

[Schlenkerla]

In Britain itself, there has lately been a massive shift to nitro "smooth" beers and even full on, carbonated keg beer (the stuff that got CAMRA's dander up in the first place.) Though real ale is still beloved, successive generations of consumers become more inured to these alternatives. This has been driven by the kind of practical concerns you mention. Even in the trade, it's not easy to move traditional cask beer fast enough to keep it fresh, let alone find or afford the skilled labor required. For the homebrewer it's the same question. Any other method than direct, air-exposed dispense of naturally conditioned beer will not reproduce the same result. But how far is it worth going? What will give you results you're happy with in the circumstances you have to accept? Maybe for a special party, draining a cask of real ale would be memorable fun. But will it be feasible on an everyday basis? At home and in the pub, it may be more reasonable to have not-quite-real ale always at its peak, rather than real ale that's always "off," reserving real ale for the niches where it can be coddled and appreciated, and unflinchingly dumped out as soon as it starts to deteriorate.

You completely nailed it in your post.

That's the main problem unless you use small pins or mini kegs. You need to drink it quickly or it oxydizes losing that fresh character. That said, it will happen to beer that's only pushed with CO2 but much slower. That's LOB argument for another thread.

Often its just me who's drinking I can see it's downfall over time. It's not bad, just not the same at first tapping. Sometimes it's disappointing to not taste what you expect. Be it that fresh hop or malty flavor.

 

[Schlenkerla]

So you use straight nitrogen? Or a beer-gas mix? I wouldn't be so hesitant to get into nitro if I was confident I could obtain beer-gas for an affordable price.

FYI - On making invert sugar.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/index.php?threads/628857/

 

[J_Flint]

In Britain itself, there has lately been a massive shift to nitro "smooth" beers and even full on, carbonated keg beer (the stuff that got CAMRA's dander up in the first place.) Though real ale is still beloved, successive generations of consumers become more inured to these alternatives. This has been driven by the kind of practical concerns you mention. Even in the trade, it's not easy to move traditional cask beer fast enough to keep it fresh, let alone find or afford the skilled labor required. For the homebrewer it's the same question. Any other method than direct, air-exposed dispense of naturally conditioned beer will not reproduce the same result. But how far is it worth going? What will give you results you're happy with in the circumstances you have to accept? Maybe for a special party, draining a cask of real ale would be memorable fun. But will it be feasible on an everyday basis? At home and in the pub, it may be more reasonable to have not-quite-real ale always at its peak, rather than real ale that's always "off," reserving real ale for the niches where it can be coddled and appreciated, and unflinchingly dumped out as soon as it starts to deteriorate.

Very well said Robert! I agree completely. After considering all the great information I've been given in this thread I think I will try to get a stout faucet and either go with a beer-gas setup, or a "nitraux" faux nitro system (basically just CO2, but purging excess gas between pours; wasteful, but finding gas around where I live is difficult without a lengthy travel.) That seems the most practical.

 

[bkboiler]

Sweet! Would love to hear you report back on how it goes! A pic of a pint and tasting report would be a great read!

 

[Schlenkerla]

Very well said Robert! I agree completely. After considering all the great information I've been given in this thread I think I will try to get a stout faucet and either go with a beer-gas setup, or a "nitraux" faux nitro system (basically just CO2, but purging excess gas between pours; wasteful, but finding gas around where I live is difficult without a lengthy travel.) That seems the most practical.

The Nitro Beer Gas with a Stout Faucet is the way to go. It doesn't disappoint. It's as painless to set up as a normal draft system.

 

[Schlenkerla]

I have a three tapper with a manifold for three CO2 served beers. Then I added a beer-gas line. It's easy just to pop off CO2 for Nitro. Then swap out faucets as needed.

 

[ba-brewer]

A while back I got one of those RV hand pump with the intent to use 2Liter soda bottles as a cask. Coupling hardware started looking messy, so got a couple kegland type mini kegs as that looked easier to adapt. I was going to purposely allow the beer to oxidize for the real ale cask experience. Figure with the small amount I would be able to kick it in couple pints over a day or two so it would not get too bad. Now the funny part, the beer got oxidized in the keg before tapping. The good part is I know what folks mean by cardboard flavor.

Swapping faucets and a smaller tank seems like a good idea. I have thought about having a nitro tap, but could not really justify a dedicated tap. My Brother likes Hale's Cream Ale on nitro, that sounded sort of interesting.

 

[Schlenkerla]

A while back I got one of those RV hand pump with the intent to use 2Liter soda bottles as a cask. Coupling hardware started looking messy, so got a couple kegland type mini kegs as that looked easier to adapt. I was going to purposely allow the beer to oxidize for the real ale cask experience. Figure with the small amount I would be able to kick it in couple pints over a day or two so it would not get too bad. Now the funny part, the beer got oxidized in the keg before tapping. The good part is I know what folks mean by cardboard flavor.

Swapping faucets and a smaller tank seems like a good idea. I have thought about having a nitro tap, but could not really justify a dedicated tap. My Brother likes Hale's Cream Ale on nitro, that sounded sort of interesting.

FWIW - I can change Stout and Perlicks in the same time to change a keg. All you need is the spanner wrench. No dedicated tap required.

I usually throw mine on right after Christmas. Comes off late spring.

 

[Schlenkerla]

@ba-brewer ,

This one...

$6.99 at Northern Brewer.



https://www.northernbrewer.com/products/faucet-wrench

$5.39 for a Micro-matic.

https://www.webstaurantstore.com/mi...O9upJH9XXaWrK-VxRK9GlUqrE3dGFtAQaAmDVEALw_wcB

 

[ba-brewer]

Gots one of doze minus the red handle. Used it last week in fact. I think it was finding room for a larger nitro tank and the price of all the fixings that had me dragging me feet.

 

[ba-brewer]

This is my wrench

This is my latest Bitter, WLP022 95% Maris Otter 5% Carastan

 

[J_Flint]

This is my wrench
View attachment 662653
This is my latest Bitter, WLP022 95% Maris Otter 5% Carastan
View attachment 662654

That looks like a nice, tight head. Was that poured through a normal faucet?

 

[ba-brewer]

Yes, a perlick flow control forced. Full volume mash at 152, carb level may be higher than a traditional bitter I don't have multiple regulators.

 

[Steveruch]

Bottle conditioned beer meets the definition of real ale.

 

[J_Flint]

Yes, a perlick flow control forced. Full volume mash at 152, carb level may be higher than a traditional bitter I don't have multiple regulators.

How do you like theWLP022? Is it much different than WLP002?

 

[ba-brewer]

WLP022 has a light fruit punch like flavor to me, getting some diacetyl and biscuit in the aroma. I will use it again.

I think it is somewhat similar to wy1469, more esters and diacetyl but less malt aroma.

I have never used wlp002, but have used wyeast 1968 which is suppose to be similar. I would say wlp022 has more esters and diacetyl than 1968 and malt comes through better. To be fair though I have not used 1968 in a while and when I did I used more late additions hops which might have covered up the yeast character.
​

 

[J_Flint]

WLP022 has a light fruit punch like flavor to me, getting some diacetyl and biscuit in the aroma. I will use it again.

I think it is somewhat similar to wy1469, more esters and diacetyl but less malt aroma.

I have never used wlp002, but have used wyeast 1968 which is suppose to be similar. I would say wlp022 has more esters and diacetyl than 1968 and malt comes through better. To be fair though I have not used 1968 in a while and when I did I used more late additions hops which might have covered up the yeast character.
​

Is the 022 available year round?

 

[ba-brewer]

No, it is a vault yeast. Wyeast 1469 is a year round yeast.

I see wlp006 in the January/febuary/march seasonal offering now. I recall that had decent flavor when I used it last, but I don't have good notes for it.

 

[J_Flint]

No, it is a vault yeast. Wyeast 1469 is a year round yeast.

I see wlp006 in the January/febuary/march seasonal offering now. I recall that had decent flavor when I used it last, but I don't have good notes for it.

How do you go about ordering a vault yeast? Can I order direct through White Labs website? Or do I have to shop around the online vendors?