Agreed, but I think we put reality aside earlier in the thread in the spirit of DIY. To me this is a neat little "green" idea, and I wouldn't be brewing if I wasn't open to fulfilling some pipe dreams here and there. Even if the end product isn't CO2 good enough for beer, perhaps it could be put to another use like in an aquarium or greenhouse.
trying to achieve a cheap CO2 storage system
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Agreed, but I think we put reality aside earlier in the thread in the spirit of DIY. To me this is a neat little "green" idea, and I wouldn't be brewing if I wasn't open to fulfilling some pipe dreams here and there. Even if the end product isn't CO2 good enough for beer, perhaps it could be put to another use like in an aquarium or greenhouse.
beren
Well-Known Member
Greenhouse is easy. Move the fermenter into it 
aquarium? Maybe. I wouldn’t think the other compounds like sulfur and stuff would be good for the fish.
aquarium? Maybe. I wouldn’t think the other compounds like sulfur and stuff would be good for the fish.
Before posting on this forum I had actually asked NASA if they were interested in my CO2 recovery system.
They appeared very enthusiastic about my discovery and immediately dedicated 4 engineers to investigate further.
It's pretty clear to me after rereading whole thread that the project could fail for more than one reason. And I have to thank you all (no sarcasm) for that.
First of all for the O2 speech....
I would like to do some empirical, but "controlled" tests, such as trying to carbonate half a batch with the recovered Co2 and the other half with the Co2 from the cylinder .... and blindly evaluate if it is possible to detect some sort of oxidation or presence of contaminating gases.
But I would also like to see, always blindly, if the volatile aromas of the hops, which are lost when leaving the fermenter, are reintroduced into the beer thanks to the forced carbonation of its own CO2.
And if this thing allows to tolerate the possible / probable / or who knows / entry of O2 from the bag or contaminants!
time will tell...
First of all for the O2 speech....
I would like to do some empirical, but "controlled" tests, such as trying to carbonate half a batch with the recovered Co2 and the other half with the Co2 from the cylinder .... and blindly evaluate if it is possible to detect some sort of oxidation or presence of contaminating gases.
But I would also like to see, always blindly, if the volatile aromas of the hops, which are lost when leaving the fermenter, are reintroduced into the beer thanks to the forced carbonation of its own CO2.
And if this thing allows to tolerate the possible / probable / or who knows / entry of O2 from the bag or contaminants!
time will tell...
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I'm ready to start experimenting... after all, I still haven't told you about my kegerator powered by an ice cream maker engine plus a couple of liters of propylene glycol from my e-cigarette. Managed with a wifi controller (not exactly...it's an esp-now connection).In the article, “CO2 capture starts when O2 reaches 0.6%,” that’s 6 parts per thousand. O2 in the final product is 6 parts per billion, and the bulk CO2 they use measures 20 parts her billion. In terms of removing O2, looks like there’s still a long way to go from capture to packaging. From the other articles, liquefaction of the final product helps with this greatly. How to start a cryo plant in the garage?
Maybe with another ice cream maker I could reach the temperatures to liquefy the co2...
The compressor problem remains... there's no way to find a cheap one that rises above 8 bar!
Ahh....for tonight I'll shut up and go grab a pint which is better!
Please keep us updated. I was thinking about this a few years ago but it is a challenge. It is keeping oxygen out in very fine amounts which is difficult at home. But I like your spirit. Keep it up!
Ok, I've got little updates for you.
Mainly I upgraded to alu bags and eva barrier tubings.
I started working on aluminum bags to test if they are adequate, as for now they don't convince me because the plastic layer is very thin, so I fear that it will break over time if inflated/deflated many times.
Another problem is that it is not easy to make holes (with a plastic bag you can make nice holes with a soldering iron of the desired size, but here you can't melt aluminum!).
here you can see the tightened connectors.
And here you can see how they are connected.
Maybe i can suspend it on the ceiling... not sure but can give it a try.
What i miss now is a control unit...
Bye,
Ale
Mainly I upgraded to alu bags and eva barrier tubings.
I started working on aluminum bags to test if they are adequate, as for now they don't convince me because the plastic layer is very thin, so I fear that it will break over time if inflated/deflated many times.
Another problem is that it is not easy to make holes (with a plastic bag you can make nice holes with a soldering iron of the desired size, but here you can't melt aluminum!).
here you can see the tightened connectors.
And here you can see how they are connected.
Maybe i can suspend it on the ceiling... not sure but can give it a try.
What i miss now is a control unit...
Bye,
Ale
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I'm testing it in a real environment.
Purged Keg and bag with CO2 belonging from a 23l (6 gal) IPA (OG 1055).
Now I'm trying to store CO2 from a 41l (10 gal) double IPA (OG 1070).
I'm turning it On and Off cause I'm still missing a control unit but I'm working on an ESP32 simple board that can drive a mosfet to turn on and off the compressor, reading bag state from a potentiometer.
I'll keep you updated, bye,
Ale
Purged Keg and bag with CO2 belonging from a 23l (6 gal) IPA (OG 1055).
Now I'm trying to store CO2 from a 41l (10 gal) double IPA (OG 1070).
I'm turning it On and Off cause I'm still missing a control unit but I'm working on an ESP32 simple board that can drive a mosfet to turn on and off the compressor, reading bag state from a potentiometer.
I'll keep you updated, bye,
Ale
OK, I don't usually make beers this alcoholic...
The thing I didn't expect was that, with this initial gravity pushing the fermentation very quickly, I could fill the cornelius with CO2 in half a day!
No control unit would be needed, but this is a special case. Avoiding the control unit has obvious benefits, but then it would be necessary to monitor fermentation to prevent the bag from exploding...
I'm not sure how to proceed... I'll try to carbonate with the stored CO2 or to decant the 23 liter batch...
I will understand along the way if it can be useful to me or if it is just a useless complication!
bye,
Ale
Yikes! Very carefully I hope!
Did you just get lucky that the pressure stopped at 87+ PSI?
Or were you observing the fill and stopped before the gear exploded?
Cheers!
And no PRV in sight!
Yup - noticed there's a Schrader valve instead
Cool but yes, be careful!! Without doing the math, that much CO2 in a keg would probably be enough to carbonate and serve and entire batch.
DuncB
Well-Known Member
But spunding the beer in the pressure fermenter should carbonate it anyway. So it's only serving CO2 that is needed.
You've got another keg to do the closed transfer into I hope? Make sure this aspect you are meticulous about otherwise you won't know whether your packaging or your CO2 capture is contaminated with oxygen.
You might be best to fit a spunding valve onto your pressure gauge via another T, this would allow some form of safety in the system.
Assume you didn't start capture of CO2 straightaway? takes a period of time / blowoff from the fermenter to get rid or use up any oxygen. @doug293cz has done the calculation / estimate for this I think in the previous linked thread.
You've got another keg to do the closed transfer into I hope? Make sure this aspect you are meticulous about otherwise you won't know whether your packaging or your CO2 capture is contaminated with oxygen.
You might be best to fit a spunding valve onto your pressure gauge via another T, this would allow some form of safety in the system.
Assume you didn't start capture of CO2 straightaway? takes a period of time / blowoff from the fermenter to get rid or use up any oxygen. @doug293cz has done the calculation / estimate for this I think in the previous linked thread.
Or maybe a good old fashioned 100 PSI PRV?
Ok, after reading your posts I decided to go down to 5 bars (72 psi) !
I manually turned the compressor on and off to fill the Cornelius (wearing eyes and ears protections), so no risk of accidental explosions (but the risk of "intentional" explosions remains).
The Cornelius has previously been tested in the garden with 7 bar (101 psi) of compressed air... and the safety issue has been discussed elsewhere in this thread... but I'm considering upgrading to a cylinder with better safety specs.
18 liters (4.7 gal) of CO2 at 4.5 bar (65 psi) should be enough to empty a 35 liter (9 gal) fermzilla at 1.5 bar (21 psi).
And yes, the system was purged of O2 thanks to the previous batch (23L - 6 gal of IPA with OG=1055).
Bye,
Ale
!I manually turned the compressor on and off to fill the Cornelius (wearing eyes and ears protections), so no risk of accidental explosions (but the risk of "intentional" explosions remains
).The Cornelius has previously been tested in the garden with 7 bar (101 psi) of compressed air... and the safety issue has been discussed elsewhere in this thread... but I'm considering upgrading to a cylinder with better safety specs.
18 liters (4.7 gal) of CO2 at 4.5 bar (65 psi) should be enough to empty a 35 liter (9 gal) fermzilla at 1.5 bar (21 psi).
And yes, the system was purged of O2 thanks to the previous batch (23L - 6 gal of IPA with OG=1055).
Bye,
Ale
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DuncB
Well-Known Member
Great was purged well.Ok, after reading your posts I decided to go down to 5 bars (72 psi)
I manually turned the compressor on and off to fill the Cornelius (wearing eyes and ears protections), so no risk of accidental explosions (but the risk of "intentional" explosions remains
The Cornelius has previously been tested in the garden with 7 bar (101 psi) of compressed air... and the safety issue has been discussed elsewhere in this thread... but I'm considering upgrading to a cylinder with better safety specs.
18 liters (4.7 gal) of CO2 at 4.5 bar (65 psi) should be enough to empty a 35 liter (9 gal) fermzilla at 1.5 bar (21 psi).
And yes, the system was purged of O2 thanks to the previous batch (23L - 6 gal of IPA with OG=1055).
Bye,
Ale
Your response about CO2 pressure needs the temperature of both components and the desired dispense pressure.
Highly recommend a PRV somewhat below tested limits of equipment.
That keg will become a literal missle in the event of a failure, capable of traveling through walls and people.
A PRV is cheap insurance (but shouldn't be used as primary pressure limiter. The point is to be redundant.)
edit: but neat results!
That keg will become a literal missle in the event of a failure, capable of traveling through walls and people.
A PRV is cheap insurance (but shouldn't be used as primary pressure limiter. The point is to be redundant.)
edit: but neat results!
mmm, yesterday I was so excited to test it that I actually didn't think about the possibility of a rocket taking off in the basement and coming at me, or a bomb exploding near me...I think eyes or ears protections wouldn't be enough to avoid injury.
I think I will deflate it this evening while waiting to find a tank that has adequate resistance to the pressure I want to reach.
tx and bye,
Ale
I think I will deflate it this evening while waiting to find a tank that has adequate resistance to the pressure I want to reach.
tx and bye,
Ale
Kegs are probably the easiest and cheapest, just keep the pressure within reason. You can fill and use multiple kegs at 50-60 psi. I would not go past that pressure.
Alternatively you can buy a 20# or 50# CO2 tank but they're pricey.
A 20# (CO2) tank has less content than a 5 gallon keg, but is certified/hydro-tested up to 3000 psi (IIRC).
Where exactly in Italy are you? Do I need to warn my relatives?the risk of "intentional" explosions remains
Climb
Well-Known Member
Consider using a SCUBA tank instead of a keg. Used SCUBA tanks are rather inexpensive and are rated and tested to over 3000 PSI I believe. A common size is an aluminum 80 cubic foot tank.You will just have to figure out how to connect things up; i.e. go from the valve on the SCUBA tank to your equipment. Good luck and be safe!
Ok, last batch of this year, IPA Double, 1070 OG, 46L (12 Gal): lots of CO2 to collect!
I ended up using two Cornys as storage (and I think I'll add a third), sanitized and filled with water to keep the O2 out.
I haven't had time to build a controller, but this batch produces CO2 at such a high rate that I can plug the system in and collect a lot of CO2 when I'm at home by manually plugging in the bag, filling with gas, and turning on the compressor to store it in the Corny ... wait for the compressor to cool down and repeat.
I plan to store 18 L x 3 (4.7 Gal x 3) of CO2 at 3 or 4 bar (43-58 Psi).
Then I'll try it to empty the fermzilla and maybe to carbonate a keg (the other two will be carbonated with "real" CO2). I'll see if I can recognize the signs of oxidation.
Bye,
Ale
Very cool. Keep us updated on the tasting results!
I cant believe I missed this thread, I've been in industrial compressed gas for a quarter century! (damn that sounds like a long time, I'm only 46)
I think you will like this photo, here is a CO2 compressor that was in service at Coors (not me in the image). At least I am 95% sure it was Coors. This gas is filtered and dried at minimum.
I see your process has improved quite a bit over the three pages! I think you reached full potential without getting involved in filters and drying.
I am interested to hear how your project is working out.
I think you will like this photo, here is a CO2 compressor that was in service at Coors (not me in the image). At least I am 95% sure it was Coors. This gas is filtered and dried at minimum.
I see your process has improved quite a bit over the three pages! I think you reached full potential without getting involved in filters and drying.
I am interested to hear how your project is working out.
Drying would only be paramount when liquifying. You don't want ice chunks in there.
Very cool picture! ^
Not really, gas compresses but moisture does not. Let’s say the CO2 is saturated at 50 degrees F. (Judging by by the condensate inside fermenters), compress that atmospheric gas to 9 bar and you have 9x the humidity at pressure. Almost certainly a dew point near 110-120 deg F. Without doing the math. This will cause condensate once the gas cools (heat of compression) to room temp.
I was thinking of (unwanted) ice formation when filling or dispensing.
In that case yes, the gas is dried by a desiccant or maybe Carbon Molecular Sieve to strip O2 and water. Usually dried as a high pressure gas then sent to other stages.
So I couldn’t help it, CO2 holds moisture like other gasses (but the solubility made me wonder). I bet OP has a tiny bit of condensate at 4 bar. 100% humidity at 45F pressurized to 4 bar = dew point above 91F. It isn’t necessarily bad, but a Coalescing filter for 0.01 microns would remove any anerobic nasties growing.
I remember watching a YouTube video of a man trying to make dry ice from scratch. He used a beach ball to collect CO2 he made from using I believe lye and muriatic acid? Then he used a fridge compressor to fill an air tank. He used a water trap and silica desiccant to remove any water before compressing. I’m sure there was a lot more to the video as he needed liquid CO2 to make dry ice but regardless it was very interesting and I though about how I could do something like that to capture gas for keg purging and force carbonation which is by far the most use of bottle gas for me.
Just using captured CO2 to purge kegs and pressure ferment will save a lot of that liquid. A LHBS operator told me to use CO2 with a blow-off nozzle to clean air conditioner coils and what-not. Salesman of the year! I stopped going there.
This particular exercise is a lot of work for little yield, more of a love for process & learning.
That "love for process" is why a lot of us are here. And, of course, Beer!
I agree it would be a lot of work for small yield it would be easier and definitely cheaper to get a tank filled vs the time and equipment to produce the CO2 and try to bottle it. But so too would buying pre-made beer. I think it does come down to exploring different aspects of a hobby and experimenting with things that makes it fun!
DuncB
Well-Known Member
A pressure capable fermenter during a ferment will produce enough CO2 to purge a few kegs. Then you can spund
To pressurise your beer. All you will need is cylinder to serve. Or another ferment to run the system if you are using low vol beers.
To pressurise your beer. All you will need is cylinder to serve. Or another ferment to run the system if you are using low vol beers.
You can also fill spare (pre-purged) kegs with the same pressurized CO2, up to around 60 psi. Most keg PRVs start blowing off above that. That's 5x the volume of the keg, 25 gallons of CO2, pressurized.
I guess you could add a regulator to the output, and use it to keep serving kegs pressurized.
New to this discussion, so forgive my ignorance.
So, I can daisy chain 5 empty kegs from my fermenter during a fermentation and use that captured gas the same way I could my co2 tank? The gas that's collected in 5 kegs is enough to push beer from a serving keg, full to empty? In other words, instead of higher pressured gas in a smaller tank, you can have a larger tank of lower pressured gas given the amount of said gas is the same.
Could you say a 15 gallon keg and two 5 gallon kegs will have the same results as the five 5 gallon kegs mentioned?
Yes. If you have the room, kegs could power the serving side of your brewery. CO2 tanks are highly pressurized to save space. Serving PSI is 10-20 PSI at 45F or around there. If CO2 prices continue to rise, this might be an approach to consider. Craigslist an old Sanke or two and retro fit them with keg posts. The only problem I see is if you have multiple taps going you might feel the need for a higher PSI at the source than where you ferment and spund your beers. If you spund at 25 PSI room temp that is your upper limit and the PSI will only go down as you serve since the vessel is a fixed size. So halfway through, the gas keg will be push out out at 13 PSI etc... A declining/moving target is not good to keep things in balance.
A separate 'CO2 Reactor' ferment might be better in which you could do a sugar ferment with distillers yeast at a high PSI to always stay above your serving pressure.
A separate 'CO2 Reactor' ferment might be better in which you could do a sugar ferment with distillers yeast at a high PSI to always stay above your serving pressure.
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I don't think a single ferment will generate enough CO2 to purge 5 empty kegs (due to gas mixing, since the kegs aren't really empty but rather filled with air). I guess it should work if the kegs are filled with water or sanitizer at the start. According to @doug293cz, 20 L of 1.050 wort fermented to 1.010 beer generates 439 L of CO2, so theoretically enough to fill more than 20 kegs at 1 atm or 10 @ 15 PSI.
There was a post here one time about a person making their own CO2 fermenting sugar, water and yeast in a corny keg. I don't remember the details but it sounded interesting.
Perhaps a deep search will find it here and offer more insight. So far I haven't been able to find it.
Perhaps a deep search will find it here and offer more insight. So far I haven't been able to find it.
I just plugged in some quick numbers in a little model and got the following after 439000 1ml bubbles. Here are the results of the first five kegs in series, assuming each one gets a "bubble" of gas from the previous keg in the chain. This assumes STP, no spunding, etc. I used Doug's original assumptions for keg volume (25L), etc.
For the in-beer concentration, I made the somewhat pessimistic assumption of 20L beer, 5L headspace, 1.000fg. If you're not intentionally under-filling kegs, its probably not this bad.
keg 1 ---- 4.96 ppb in gas
---------- 1.60 ppb in 20L xfered beer
keg 2 --- 92.14 ppb in gas
--------- 29.71 ppb in 20L xfered beer
keg 3 -- 857.51 ppb in gas
-------- 276.55 ppb in 20L xfered beer
keg 4 - 5337.54 ppb in gas
------- 1721.36 ppb in 20L xfered beer
keg 5 - 25005.01 ppb in gas
------- 8064.12 ppb in 20L xfered beer
If we assume same 439L CO2 generated, 19L beer transfered into a 20L keg:
keg 1 ---- 0.06 ppb in gas
---------- 0.00 ppb in 19L xfered beer
keg 2 ---- 1.41 ppb in gas
---------- 0.10 ppb in 19L xfered beer
keg 3 --- 16.24 ppb in gas
---------- 1.10 ppb in 19L xfered beer
keg 4 -- 124.73 ppb in gas
---------- 8.47 ppb in 19L xfered beer
keg 5 -- 720.04 ppb in gas
--------- 48.89 ppb in 19L xfered beer
So in a more realistic case, with a very full keg, 4 kegs in series might be OK? YMMV
edit: forum is auto formatting away all my spaces : ( added some dashes
edit2: buuuut if you spund to 15psig from the get go:
keg 1 - 3595.65 ppb in gas
-------- 488.25 ppb in 19L xfered beer
keg 2 - 43057.94 ppb in gas
------- 5846.82 ppb in 19L xfered beer
keg 3 - 259607.76 ppb in gas
------- 35252.00 ppb in 19L xfered beer
keg 4 - 1051822.80 ppb in gas
------- 142826.46 ppb in 19L xfered beer
keg 5 - 3225477.65 ppb in gas
------- 437985.91 ppb in 19L xfered beer
You have to purge, then pressurize if you want to store gas. Trying to both at once requires a lot more purge gas.
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