Trouble with Tripples or How I learned to brew a Westmalle Clone without worries

[TrickyDick]

OK,

Think I have my recipe pretty well locked in now.

Going to adjust my RO water to BLAM westmalle profile (p158 I think)

Grist for 11gal
22.5# Pils (weyermann) I may opt for the floor malted sack
8 oz acid malt
8 oz aromatic malt
4 oz white wheat malt

After day three in fermenter I'll add 5# candi syrup clear, and 1 pound regular table sugar.

OG predicted at 1.083

Hops
4 additions
90 min Styrian goldings
45 minute tettnang
30 minute tettnang ( saw some folks using fuggles here. Supposedly westmalle uses spalt select which I may sub in here if I have any or split with 45 minute)
5 minute Saaz 1oz
39 IBU target

Using wlp530 to make a 2.5 L starter tonight hopefully. Got some nice fresh yeast, thanks Brian!! Going to pitch at 64 and then reset ferm freezer temp to 68 with thermowell and let it free rise, adding sugar on day 3.

Mash still undecided. Probably this schedule

113° x 15 min
144° x 35-45 min
158° x 25 min
172° x 5 min

I'll need to acidify my water as well.

Carbonated to 4 volumes. Not sure if I want to go through the hassle of bottling this.

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

Actually, I think the mash needs revision:

Dough in at 113 and immediately begin to heat to 140 and hold for 75-90 min,
Then raise to 158 for 15 min, and a mash out

TD

 

[LakesideBrewing]

Carbonated to 4 volumes. Not sure if I want to go through the hassle of bottling this.

TD

This thread is two months old and you have obviously put a lot of research and work into this recipe. Why not go all the way and bottle this beer. Just my opinion of course; I'm sure it would come out just awesome in the keg. But, for me, a well made tripel ages so much better when bottled conditioned.

-Mike

 

[TrickyDick]

This thread is two months old and you have obviously put a lot of research and work into this recipe. Why not go all the way and bottle this beer. Just my opinion of course; I'm sure it would come out just awesome in the keg. But, for me, a well made tripel ages so much better when bottled conditioned.

-Mike

Agreed.

Lately, been having issues achieving appropriate carbonation with belgians brew in the bottle. Seems I do it all right, then its not the right CO2, and the corks (I have a separate thread on this) always need a corkscrew, never "mushroom" etc.

However, I was planning to split this with a friend, but he had to bail (Honey Do List) on the brew day (Tomorrow). Therefore, It might be that I bottle half and keg half. Will see.

Crushed the grain tonight, and have everything ready to go for tomorrow morning. I have a lot of extra keg management work to do tomorrow during brewing, but the long 140º rest should provide time for this.

Thanks for the support!

TD

 

[LakesideBrewing]

Agreed.

Lately, been having issues achieving appropriate carbonation with belgians brew in the bottle. Seems I do it all right, then its not the right CO2, and the corks (I have a separate thread on this) always need a corkscrew, never "mushroom" etc.

TD

I hear ya, I've had the same problems. I have had some over carbonated Belgian beers in the past and stubborn corks! (Can you link that thread?)

Anyway, I'm also brewing a Westmalle 'clone' today. When I started researching it I came across this thread, it has been very helpful! Good luck, today.

-Mike

 

[bizarrojosh]

Actually, I think the mash needs revision:

Dough in at 113 and immediately begin to heat to 140 and hold for 75-90 min,
Then raise to 158 for 15 min, and a mash out

TD

Can you elaborate on why you are mashing for soo long at 140 and then mashing so short at 158?

I'm a novice brewer but isn't it the case that if you mash around 148 to 150 for 90 minutes you'll achieve the same results?

If not could someone help me with my mashing theory? Thanks!

 

[TrickyDick]

Can you elaborate on why you are mashing for soo long at 140 and then mashing so short at 158?

I'm a novice brewer but isn't it the case that if you mash around 148 to 150 for 90 minutes you'll achieve the same results?

If not could someone help me with my mashing theory? Thanks!

Well, the idea is to create a very highly fermentable wort, with the fewest unfermentable dextrins possible. I'll probably only go 60-75 minutes at that temp. Bud light for instance has reportedly over 2 hours mash at 140's somewhere (little foggy on that right now). At the lower mash range the reactions are slower, hence need for longer mash at lower temps. I'm sure I could get by with even a single infusion at like 150-152, but I'm trying to do like the Belgians here.

TD

TD

 

[tennesseean_87]

For most average beers, a single infusion is fine, but a multi-step is slightly different and can achieve things on the extremes that a single-infusion can't.

 

[bizarrojosh]

For most average beers, a single infusion is fine, but a multi-step is slightly different and can achieve things on the extremes that a single-infusion can't.

Could you elaborate on what you mean by "things"? More fermentable sugars at the low end?

 

[TrickyDick]

Could you elaborate on what you mean by "things"? More fermentable sugars at the low end?

Briefly,


There are two main saccharification enzymes working in the mash, Beta Amylase and Alpha Amylase. One works ONLY at the ends of the starches, and works somewhat slower than the other. It must halt its chewing off simple sugars from ends of starches when it comes to certain branch points, and other regions. Generally, it produces a more fermentable wort, when mashing in the lower range, where this enzyme is more active. I believe this is the Beta Amylase, but I'm too lazy to look up and confirm.
Conversely, the alpha works faster, and optimal at slightly higher temps, and cleaves the starches everywhere*, not just at the ends. I believe it cannot operate as close to the starch branch points (think of starch like a large rope of simple sugars linked together with several knots of tiny to short "branches" coming off at varying points. The enzymes break up the starch into simple sugars that can be processed by yeast), resulting in longer "limit dextrins".
I believe that a "limit dextrin" is a starch molecule which cannot be broken into smaller units by the malt enzymes, and cannot be processed by the yeasts, and results in "body" and higher residual FG than a mash processed where the beta amylase is more active, resulting in fewer, and smaller limit dextrins, and therefore, a more highly fermentable wort, with a lower potential FG.

Anyway, I could be totally off base, but this is my understanding of the subject.

As an aside, I finished the brew (and need to go clean up still!)
Hit 1.055 OG PreBoil wort Gravity 14 gallons (expected 13.5 Gal, and abandoned at least a half gallon in the mash tun), boiled down to 11.5 (with at least a gallon of loss). Didn't measure the post boil. The sugar gets added after day 2-3 of fermentation so I expect it to hit the right OG. Strangely, the mash seized up frequently, so I added some Rice Hulls. Still ended up with a bunch of teig and a bunched up mash during the lauter. odd.

TD

Finished clean-up. Hard to measure volume in the SS fermenter tank. Seems like I did well. Used the pH meter and Bru'NWater SS and it was SPOT ON with the actual measured pH! The OG is perfect to the recipe, pre sugar addition, which I will do on day 2 or three.

My therminator is not working well. I think it is a combo of the march pump pressure and the repeated clogging of the plates. Today I flushed with HOT PBW water for over 2 hours, half in each direction. I think I am probably going to switch back to a Chillzilla style chiller and recirculate the boil until its all chilled, perhaps with an immersion chiller going as well. My water in FL is not very cold, mid to low 70's usually. ICE is generally always required. Today's brew is in the fermentation freezer waiting to hit temp before I can pitch.

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

Forgot to take a post boil gravity DOH! Going to have to estimate based on pre and post boil volume. Went from 14 gallons at 1.055 down to 11.25 gallons. The sugar I will add to the fermenter on day three. I don't imagine it is necessary to boil the syrup.

How long should this condition after primary fermentation?

TD

 

[tennesseean_87]

I think Denny Conn says he likes them fresh. Many of the senior members (Yooper, Revvy) like them aged. I listened to Jamil on tripels and he didn't mention, although it seemed he might prefer them fresh (some comments on brewers trying to get the flavors of European examples which develop over time and harsh shipping conditions being misguided). Candisyrup.com's Westmalle clone recipe says to cellar 6 months after carbonating (primary, 4 weeks at 50, 2 weeks in bottle, 6 months in cellar). I just brewed mine up last Monday to be ready to drink in early April when my first child arrives.

 

[TrickyDick]

I think Denny Conn says he likes them fresh. Many of the senior members (Yooper, Revvy) like them aged. I listened to Jamil on tripels and he didn't mention, although it seemed he might prefer them fresh (some comments on brewers trying to get the flavors of European examples which develop over time and harsh shipping conditions being misguided). Candisyrup.com's Westmalle clone recipe says to cellar 6 months after carbonating (primary, 4 weeks at 50, 2 weeks in bottle, 6 months in cellar). I just brewed mine up last Monday to be ready to drink in early April when my first child arrives.

That's good enough for me! I'll check out that recipe too. My long mash picked me up an extra 5-6% efficiency. Using a calculation, my OG was 1.068 pre syrup. If I add all 5 pounds, seems that it'll put me at 1.085 projected. My last Belgian has been in bottles for 6 months. Probably ready to drink up now...

TD.

 

[DSmith]

3-6 months after packaging (following 4 weeks of cold conditioning) seems to be where my attempts at the Westmalle Tripel have tasted their best. Too soon and the flavors from the liquid candi sugar can dominate (especially if candi sugar is used for priming sugar), too long and the hops fade.

 

[TrickyDick]

3-6 months after packaging (following 4 weeks of cold conditioning) seems to be where my attempts at the Westmalle Tripel have tasted their best. Too soon and the flavors from the liquid candi sugar can dominate (especially if candi sugar is used for priming sugar), too long and the hops fade.

Looks tasty! I am using the clear candi syrup added to the primary on day three ( this Thursday night). They are in the older packaging, and about 3 years old I estimate. I don't think that any creatures can live in the syrup because of the Aw or water activity, though of this I am not entirely sure. I don't want to boil it and risk losing any delicate aroma or flavors it supposedly has.

My issue now is the cold conditioning. I can do fridge temp or room temp. But 50's is not possible without purchasing an extra fridge, which I am reluctant to do.

Like a dope, I forgot to dump the cold break and probably some hot break material that made it into the fermenter, and blasted all back into solution with the oxygenation wand.

TD

 

[DSmith]

Looks tasty! I am using the clear candi syrup added to the primary on day three ( this Thursday night). They are in the older packaging, and about 3 years old I estimate. I don't think that any creatures can live in the syrup because of the Aw or water activity, though of this I am not entirely sure. I don't want to boil it and risk losing any delicate aroma or flavors it supposedly has.

My issue now is the cold conditioning. I can do fridge temp or room temp. But 50's is not possible without purchasing an extra fridge, which I am reluctant to do.

Like a dope, I forgot to dump the cold break and probably some hot break material that made it into the fermenter, and blasted all back into solution with the oxygenation wand.

TD

This document may help. I have no experience with it but know it's there and may fit your situation.

http://www.candisyrup.com/uploads/6/0/3/5/6035776/csi_doc_-_volumetrics.pdf

I'd choose crashing the beer in the fridge after you confirm the final gravity, and doing the cold condition secondary in the fridge. My understanding is that it's meant to settle out the yeast & fine particles in the beer to help with fine carbonation/less nucleation sites. I've cleared Belgians with gelatin too but have chosen to go away from that because many commercial ones are cloudy even with a careful pour.

Here is a graph of my fermenter temperature and some gravity readings by refractometer (alcohol correction applied). I ended the temperature data logger but indicate a few degree temperature increase at the end to ensure final gravity before cold crashing. For Belgians only, I get the beer off the yeast fast and have liked the results.

 

[TrickyDick]

Thanks! Looks like they recommend a boil for proper miscibility, adding 4 oz water per pound of syrup. That's 20 oz water for 5 pounds and then a 20 minute boil, then cool and then add. Looks like I better prep that syrup the night before. I'll probably crash the beer in the conical, and then dump the yeast or just rack off the top and into kegs for secondary conditioning with airlocks/blowoff on the kegs. TD

Edit-
My syrup is from a different company, darkcandi.com I believe. I wonder what they do with theirs that's different than the company you sent the link for (which I have also used before). I think one big difference is the packaging. The pouches are easier to use for sure.

 

[TrickyDick]

11.25 gallons in a 14.4 gallon fermenter.


Blew through airlock and was nearly all thick creamy yeast. Think about Elmer's glue consistency.

Hope the fermentation finishes up. Estimate. A good 1/3-1/2 cup of dense creamy yeast.

Added the syrup tonight since I think we are at high krausen (ya think!). Boiled. 20 min.

TD

 

[tennesseean_87]

Nice to see your progress. Mine is still fermenting around 70. I'm Glad I brewed it now, because it seems it'll be in prime condition by April.

 

[TrickyDick]

Nice to see your progress. Mine is still fermenting around 70. I'm Glad I brewed it now, because it seems it'll be in prime condition by April.

Thanks! Every time I clean up the mess, it dribbles over again in a few hours! WTF!! Its GOT to settle down soon!!

I think I ended up changing the hop additions, not sure I posted above.

90 min Styrian goldings
45 min tettnang
30 min tettnang and spalt select
5 min Saaz half oz
39 predicted IBU per beersmith. I didn't adjust the hop age bitterness though. All hops are pellets in Mylar, vac pack in freezer some up to 6 months since I bought. I think the loss of AA is probably negligible

TD

 

[NTexBrewer]

I brewed a tripel on the 11th. Used 3787 (2L starter) and also had a blowout. After the blowout did some reading and found that this is common. I installed a blow off tube. Will do that next time from the start.

My take on the Candi sugar thing is that Belgium and France produce a lot of Beet sugar. My mother-in-law is from Belgium and the couple times she has visited family they always give her small packages of Beet sugar and Beet brown sugar to bring home.

From a flavor point it may not make a difference but I like the idea of using something different.

 

[TrickyDick]

I brewed a tripel on the 11th. Used 3787 (2L starter) and also had a blowout. After the blowout did some reading and found that this is common. I installed a blow off tube. Will do that next time from the start. My take on the Candi sugar thing is that Belgium and France produce a lot of Beet sugar. My mother-in-law is from Belgium and the couple times she has visited family they always give her small packages of Beet sugar and Beet brown sugar to bring home. From a flavor point it may not make a difference but I like the idea of using something different.

I can connect a blow off tube on my conical, but then I cannot use my thermowell without drilling a hold in the lid or somewhere, as the thermowell goes through a double drilled stopper in the airlock hole. I find that when I use the probe simply taped to the side of the conical, the the freezer will turn on to cool if I have the door opened for more than 10-20 seconds or so.

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

Measured the gravity today, day 6 post pitch, and the gravity is 1.011. I think it might go another 1-2 points. The sugar plus water has a funky formula to calculate more accurately with the dilution effect on the volume, plus the SG from the sugar does to the volume of fermenting beer. I didn't bother with trying to do the calculation. hydro sample tastes very yeast like with nice esters and aroma you'd expect from a triple. So far a very satisfactory fermentation. I think I will let it go another week on the yeast, and then crash to 50º and rack off. Problem is I',ll be out of town this week and when I get home, I'll have too many things to do until the next weekend. For now, I raised the set point on the ferm freezer to 72 in order to ensure complete attenuation. Ill drop it to 50 when I get home next Sunday, then by Friday morning, I should have time to rack into purged carboys.

I know some folks like to get the triple off the yeast promptly. I unfortunately do not have time today in order to do this. I also do not have any suitable vessels other than carboys to rack it into at the moment. perhaps this would force me to bottle the beer instead of serve in kegs, so maybe that's not such a bad thing.

I'll tell you what, yeast blasting through the airlock makes a big mess, that's harder to clean up once you let it dry.....

TD

 

[tennesseean_87]

I got tons of sulfur smell with mine (3787), which is just now dissipating a bit. The airlock is still moving, and I pitched on the 15th. I can't even tell if the krausen has dropped because there is so much gunk stuck to the top of the carboy I'll probably open up soon to take some gravity readings and transfer to get it off most of the yeast (and to clean the inside before it dries!) and drop it to 50 at the same time. Are you planning on spending about a month there?

 

[TrickyDick]

I get no sulfur.

Planning to hold at 50 for just shy of 4 weeks. So I can brew again at end of November.

Need the fermentation space.

It'll go into kegs or carboys after that. I might end up racking into kegs/carboys much earlier to get of the yeast when I return from trip.

TD

 

[jrgtr42]

Crushed the grain tonight, and have everything ready to go for tomorrow morning. I have a lot of extra keg management work to do tomorrow during brewing, but the long 140º rest should provide time for this.

Thanks for the support!

TD

lol. Is "Keg Management" another euphemism for "keg emptying?"and therefore = drinking?

 

[TrickyDick]

I wish! Good thought though. Had to clean out some empties and replace seals, sanitize and rack etc during the mash and boil so I could rack my doppelbock out of primary. I'm done with lagers until I get my conical system built. Takes up too much time and space for brewing ales and I'm forced to lager in the serving fridge.

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

So. I'm ready to bottle soon. Need to know how to carbonate to proper level. Bought some 375 ml Belgian style bottles that take corks. Gonna recycle these for another brew after the trippel.

How much priming sugar to use??

I started primary at 64 then free rise to 69. Then I let rise to 72 to ensure full attenuation for 10 days. Then cooled to 50. When I bottle, I'll crash to 30's before racking to bottling bucket.

How do I determine the current dissolved CO2 in order to calculate the needed sugar? I think I need to use the 72° to calculate.

Also how much volumes of co2 can I use to bottle safely?

Thanks.

TD

 

[Matteo57]

Some good info, thanks!

 

[NTexBrewer]

I too will be bottling my triple this friday. I will bottle in 750ml belgian bottles with corks plus a few 33cl chimey, duval, and other belgian beers I have drunk.

http://www.northernbrewer.com/documentation/AdvancedBottleConditioning.pdf

Here is a link that talks about how many volumes bottles are rated for.

Regarding CO2 in the beer. If I understand it correctly you use the warmest temperature your beer has been at. So if you fermented at 72 then you use 72. The thinking is as you chill or cold crash your beer the CO2 stays in suspension in the beer.

I guess I'm leaning to carbonate mine at 3.5 volumes. I have carbonated saisons to 3.2 and wits to 3.0 and this has been good carbonation. I'm also planning to pitch new yeast at bottling.

I may not get the cork pop like a commercial tripel but I don't want gushers either since these will be Christmas presents for friends.