Trouble with Tripples or How I learned to brew a Westmalle Clone without worries

[TrickyDick]

Forgot to take a post boil gravity DOH! Going to have to estimate based on pre and post boil volume. Went from 14 gallons at 1.055 down to 11.25 gallons. The sugar I will add to the fermenter on day three. I don't imagine it is necessary to boil the syrup.

How long should this condition after primary fermentation?

TD

 

[tennesseean_87]

I think Denny Conn says he likes them fresh. Many of the senior members (Yooper, Revvy) like them aged. I listened to Jamil on tripels and he didn't mention, although it seemed he might prefer them fresh (some comments on brewers trying to get the flavors of European examples which develop over time and harsh shipping conditions being misguided). Candisyrup.com's Westmalle clone recipe says to cellar 6 months after carbonating (primary, 4 weeks at 50, 2 weeks in bottle, 6 months in cellar). I just brewed mine up last Monday to be ready to drink in early April when my first child arrives.

 

[TrickyDick]

I think Denny Conn says he likes them fresh. Many of the senior members (Yooper, Revvy) like them aged. I listened to Jamil on tripels and he didn't mention, although it seemed he might prefer them fresh (some comments on brewers trying to get the flavors of European examples which develop over time and harsh shipping conditions being misguided). Candisyrup.com's Westmalle clone recipe says to cellar 6 months after carbonating (primary, 4 weeks at 50, 2 weeks in bottle, 6 months in cellar). I just brewed mine up last Monday to be ready to drink in early April when my first child arrives.

That's good enough for me! I'll check out that recipe too. My long mash picked me up an extra 5-6% efficiency. Using a calculation, my OG was 1.068 pre syrup. If I add all 5 pounds, seems that it'll put me at 1.085 projected. My last Belgian has been in bottles for 6 months. Probably ready to drink up now...

TD.

 

[DSmith]

3-6 months after packaging (following 4 weeks of cold conditioning) seems to be where my attempts at the Westmalle Tripel have tasted their best. Too soon and the flavors from the liquid candi sugar can dominate (especially if candi sugar is used for priming sugar), too long and the hops fade.

 

[TrickyDick]

3-6 months after packaging (following 4 weeks of cold conditioning) seems to be where my attempts at the Westmalle Tripel have tasted their best. Too soon and the flavors from the liquid candi sugar can dominate (especially if candi sugar is used for priming sugar), too long and the hops fade.

Looks tasty! I am using the clear candi syrup added to the primary on day three ( this Thursday night). They are in the older packaging, and about 3 years old I estimate. I don't think that any creatures can live in the syrup because of the Aw or water activity, though of this I am not entirely sure. I don't want to boil it and risk losing any delicate aroma or flavors it supposedly has.

My issue now is the cold conditioning. I can do fridge temp or room temp. But 50's is not possible without purchasing an extra fridge, which I am reluctant to do.

Like a dope, I forgot to dump the cold break and probably some hot break material that made it into the fermenter, and blasted all back into solution with the oxygenation wand.

TD

 

[DSmith]

Looks tasty! I am using the clear candi syrup added to the primary on day three ( this Thursday night). They are in the older packaging, and about 3 years old I estimate. I don't think that any creatures can live in the syrup because of the Aw or water activity, though of this I am not entirely sure. I don't want to boil it and risk losing any delicate aroma or flavors it supposedly has.

My issue now is the cold conditioning. I can do fridge temp or room temp. But 50's is not possible without purchasing an extra fridge, which I am reluctant to do.

Like a dope, I forgot to dump the cold break and probably some hot break material that made it into the fermenter, and blasted all back into solution with the oxygenation wand.

TD

This document may help. I have no experience with it but know it's there and may fit your situation.

http://www.candisyrup.com/uploads/6/0/3/5/6035776/csi_doc_-_volumetrics.pdf

I'd choose crashing the beer in the fridge after you confirm the final gravity, and doing the cold condition secondary in the fridge. My understanding is that it's meant to settle out the yeast & fine particles in the beer to help with fine carbonation/less nucleation sites. I've cleared Belgians with gelatin too but have chosen to go away from that because many commercial ones are cloudy even with a careful pour.

Here is a graph of my fermenter temperature and some gravity readings by refractometer (alcohol correction applied). I ended the temperature data logger but indicate a few degree temperature increase at the end to ensure final gravity before cold crashing. For Belgians only, I get the beer off the yeast fast and have liked the results.

 

[TrickyDick]

Thanks! Looks like they recommend a boil for proper miscibility, adding 4 oz water per pound of syrup. That's 20 oz water for 5 pounds and then a 20 minute boil, then cool and then add. Looks like I better prep that syrup the night before. I'll probably crash the beer in the conical, and then dump the yeast or just rack off the top and into kegs for secondary conditioning with airlocks/blowoff on the kegs. TD

Edit-
My syrup is from a different company, darkcandi.com I believe. I wonder what they do with theirs that's different than the company you sent the link for (which I have also used before). I think one big difference is the packaging. The pouches are easier to use for sure.

 

[TrickyDick]

11.25 gallons in a 14.4 gallon fermenter.


Blew through airlock and was nearly all thick creamy yeast. Think about Elmer's glue consistency.

Hope the fermentation finishes up. Estimate. A good 1/3-1/2 cup of dense creamy yeast.

Added the syrup tonight since I think we are at high krausen (ya think!). Boiled. 20 min.

TD

 

[tennesseean_87]

Nice to see your progress. Mine is still fermenting around 70. I'm Glad I brewed it now, because it seems it'll be in prime condition by April.

 

[TrickyDick]

Nice to see your progress. Mine is still fermenting around 70. I'm Glad I brewed it now, because it seems it'll be in prime condition by April.

Thanks! Every time I clean up the mess, it dribbles over again in a few hours! WTF!! Its GOT to settle down soon!!

I think I ended up changing the hop additions, not sure I posted above.

90 min Styrian goldings
45 min tettnang
30 min tettnang and spalt select
5 min Saaz half oz
39 predicted IBU per beersmith. I didn't adjust the hop age bitterness though. All hops are pellets in Mylar, vac pack in freezer some up to 6 months since I bought. I think the loss of AA is probably negligible

TD

 

[NTexBrewer]

I brewed a tripel on the 11th. Used 3787 (2L starter) and also had a blowout. After the blowout did some reading and found that this is common. I installed a blow off tube. Will do that next time from the start.

My take on the Candi sugar thing is that Belgium and France produce a lot of Beet sugar. My mother-in-law is from Belgium and the couple times she has visited family they always give her small packages of Beet sugar and Beet brown sugar to bring home.

From a flavor point it may not make a difference but I like the idea of using something different.

 

[TrickyDick]

I brewed a tripel on the 11th. Used 3787 (2L starter) and also had a blowout. After the blowout did some reading and found that this is common. I installed a blow off tube. Will do that next time from the start. My take on the Candi sugar thing is that Belgium and France produce a lot of Beet sugar. My mother-in-law is from Belgium and the couple times she has visited family they always give her small packages of Beet sugar and Beet brown sugar to bring home. From a flavor point it may not make a difference but I like the idea of using something different.

I can connect a blow off tube on my conical, but then I cannot use my thermowell without drilling a hold in the lid or somewhere, as the thermowell goes through a double drilled stopper in the airlock hole. I find that when I use the probe simply taped to the side of the conical, the the freezer will turn on to cool if I have the door opened for more than 10-20 seconds or so.

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

Measured the gravity today, day 6 post pitch, and the gravity is 1.011. I think it might go another 1-2 points. The sugar plus water has a funky formula to calculate more accurately with the dilution effect on the volume, plus the SG from the sugar does to the volume of fermenting beer. I didn't bother with trying to do the calculation. hydro sample tastes very yeast like with nice esters and aroma you'd expect from a triple. So far a very satisfactory fermentation. I think I will let it go another week on the yeast, and then crash to 50º and rack off. Problem is I',ll be out of town this week and when I get home, I'll have too many things to do until the next weekend. For now, I raised the set point on the ferm freezer to 72 in order to ensure complete attenuation. Ill drop it to 50 when I get home next Sunday, then by Friday morning, I should have time to rack into purged carboys.

I know some folks like to get the triple off the yeast promptly. I unfortunately do not have time today in order to do this. I also do not have any suitable vessels other than carboys to rack it into at the moment. perhaps this would force me to bottle the beer instead of serve in kegs, so maybe that's not such a bad thing.

I'll tell you what, yeast blasting through the airlock makes a big mess, that's harder to clean up once you let it dry.....

TD

 

[tennesseean_87]

I got tons of sulfur smell with mine (3787), which is just now dissipating a bit. The airlock is still moving, and I pitched on the 15th. I can't even tell if the krausen has dropped because there is so much gunk stuck to the top of the carboy I'll probably open up soon to take some gravity readings and transfer to get it off most of the yeast (and to clean the inside before it dries!) and drop it to 50 at the same time. Are you planning on spending about a month there?

 

[TrickyDick]

I get no sulfur.

Planning to hold at 50 for just shy of 4 weeks. So I can brew again at end of November.

Need the fermentation space.

It'll go into kegs or carboys after that. I might end up racking into kegs/carboys much earlier to get of the yeast when I return from trip.

TD

 

[jrgtr42]

Crushed the grain tonight, and have everything ready to go for tomorrow morning. I have a lot of extra keg management work to do tomorrow during brewing, but the long 140º rest should provide time for this.

Thanks for the support!

TD

lol. Is "Keg Management" another euphemism for "keg emptying?"and therefore = drinking?

 

[TrickyDick]

I wish! Good thought though. Had to clean out some empties and replace seals, sanitize and rack etc during the mash and boil so I could rack my doppelbock out of primary. I'm done with lagers until I get my conical system built. Takes up too much time and space for brewing ales and I'm forced to lager in the serving fridge.

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

So. I'm ready to bottle soon. Need to know how to carbonate to proper level. Bought some 375 ml Belgian style bottles that take corks. Gonna recycle these for another brew after the trippel.

How much priming sugar to use??

I started primary at 64 then free rise to 69. Then I let rise to 72 to ensure full attenuation for 10 days. Then cooled to 50. When I bottle, I'll crash to 30's before racking to bottling bucket.

How do I determine the current dissolved CO2 in order to calculate the needed sugar? I think I need to use the 72° to calculate.

Also how much volumes of co2 can I use to bottle safely?

Thanks.

TD

 

[Matteo57]

Some good info, thanks!

 

[NTexBrewer]

I too will be bottling my triple this friday. I will bottle in 750ml belgian bottles with corks plus a few 33cl chimey, duval, and other belgian beers I have drunk.

http://www.northernbrewer.com/documentation/AdvancedBottleConditioning.pdf

Here is a link that talks about how many volumes bottles are rated for.

Regarding CO2 in the beer. If I understand it correctly you use the warmest temperature your beer has been at. So if you fermented at 72 then you use 72. The thinking is as you chill or cold crash your beer the CO2 stays in suspension in the beer.

I guess I'm leaning to carbonate mine at 3.5 volumes. I have carbonated saisons to 3.2 and wits to 3.0 and this has been good carbonation. I'm also planning to pitch new yeast at bottling.

I may not get the cork pop like a commercial tripel but I don't want gushers either since these will be Christmas presents for friends.

 

[tennesseean_87]

+1 for 72. I need to find a cheap corker. Anyone want to give me their colonna?

 

[NTexBrewer]

I'm renting a corker from my Homebrew store for $5.

 

[TrickyDick]

I too will be bottling my triple this friday. I will bottle in 750ml belgian bottles with corks plus a few 33cl chimey, duval, and other belgian beers I have drunk. http://www.northernbrewer.com/documentation/AdvancedBottleConditioning.pdf Here is a link that talks about how many volumes bottles are rated for. Regarding CO2 in the beer. If I understand it correctly you use the warmest temperature your beer has been at. So if you fermented at 72 then you use 72. The thinking is as you chill or cold crash your beer the CO2 stays in suspension in the beer. I guess I'm leaning to carbonate mine at 3.5 volumes. I have carbonated saisons to 3.2 and wits to 3.0 and this has been good carbonation. I'm also planning to pitch new yeast at bottling. I may not get the cork pop like a commercial tripel but I don't want gushers either since these will be Christmas presents for friends.

Agreed. I always hate that crappy way you're supposed to calculate the residual dissolved CO2. Seems dumb. If I left a bottle of beer open at 72 with an air lock, it would eventually go totally flat... I've had undercarbed Belgians before.

I picked up some 375ml Belgian cork finish bottles this week for bottling. I'll check out the link. Thanks.

I hate the difference in quality of the commercial corks vs what we can get. Never mushroom like the real Belgian corks do, even after years.

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

+1 for 72. I need to find a cheap corker. Anyone want to give me their colonna?

You can borrow mine if you lived locally. I bought the Portuguese a a years ago. To date, this'll be the third batch I've corked, but I'm planning two more cork finish batches this year, well, maybe just one more. Wished I can gotten then Italian which can cap as well.

TD

 

[tennesseean_87]

Or colonna, which corks, caps, and fits in my apartment. Maybe for CHristmas...

 

[TrickyDick]

I will say the Portugese floor corker is incredibly easy to use and adjust, provides plenty of leverage for super easy corking. The jaws that compress the cork are plastic, but I can't imagine they wouldn't last a lifetime. The colonna just looks like a PITA to use.

TD

 

[NTexBrewer]

Just finished bottling. Decided to carb to 3.75 volumes. Using NB priming calculated that was 6.5 oz. of sucrose for 4.5 gallons at 72 degrees. I used beet sugar to prime. I also pitched one pack of wyeast 3787. Smacked it when I got up this morning (boy that sounds bad). The yeast pack had about 5 hours to activate. Not too many problems using the corker and getting the cages on. Ended up with 20 750 ml, 5 330 ml, and one pony!

 

[bethebrew]

Yesterday I bottled the two big Belgians sitting in primary. One with 1762 and one with 3787, both at around 10.5% ABV. Decided not to give them any more yeast so we shall see. Made a priming syrup from cane sugar, tangerine rind, tangerine juice and some organic molasses. Ended up with close to 5 oz. dry sugar/ 8 oz. syrup for each 4 gallonish batch. Boiled it up to about 250 F then let sit in oven at 280 for 45 mins.

One thing I do now, for better or worse, is not only stir up the beer being racked over the priming syrup, but right before bottling give it a good shake. My rationale is that residual CO2 gets shaken out, and maybe the yeast need a little Oxygen in their next fermentation phase. The other thing is to really get the beer and the much heavier priming syrup mixed in really well.

I am using Oxygen scavenging caps so figure if I did shake in a little O2 it will be eaten by the yeast or absorbed by the cap.

 

[tennesseean_87]

Space is an issue, and capping ability will be great. If I can find one used, I'll snatch it up.

 

[TrickyDick]

Yesterday I bottled the two big Belgians sitting in primary. One with 1762 and one with 3787, both at around 10.5% ABV. Decided not to give them any more yeast so we shall see. Made a priming syrup from cane sugar, tangerine rind, tangerine juice and some organic molasses. Ended up with close to 5 oz. dry sugar/ 8 oz. syrup for each 4 gallonish batch. Boiled it up to about 250 F then let sit in oven at 280 for 45 mins.

One thing I do now, for better or worse, is not only stir up the beer being racked over the priming syrup, but right before bottling give it a good shake. My rationale is that residual CO2 gets shaken out, and maybe the yeast need a little Oxygen in their next fermentation phase. The other thing is to really get the beer and the much heavier priming syrup mixed in really well.

I am using Oxygen scavenging caps so figure if I did shake in a little O2 it will be eaten by the yeast or absorbed by the cap.

I believe that yeast only require oxygen for reproduction, and not for metabolizing sugar into alcohol and CO2 (aka fermentation). It is undesirable to introduce oxygen at any time after you've pitched the yeast (unless its a high gravity beer and then a second dose is suggested 12-24 hours after yeast is pitched).

The tangerine juice sounds like a really interesting idea! let us know how that turns out please!

TD

 

[LakesideBrewing]

I've been following this thread and brewing right along with it. I started cold conditioning my Tripel yesterday. The sample tasted amazing! Thanks! This is a great thread!

 

[NTexBrewer]

Getting ready to mail a bunch out for Christmas. Just popped my first one after 3 weeks of carbonating at 78 degrees. Wanted to make sure I was not sending out bottle bombs. Looks like the carbonation level is perfect. Tastes great too!

 

[butterpants]

Getting ready to mail a bunch out for Christmas. Just popped my first one after 3 weeks of carbonating at 78 degrees. Wanted to make sure I was not sending out bottle bombs. Looks like the carbonation level is perfect. Tastes great too!

Nice label artwork man. Impressive.

This is what mine usually look like...

 

[NTexBrewer]

Nice label artwork man. Impressive.

This is what mine usually look like...



View attachment 164230

Thanks. I worked on the label for a while since they were going to be xmas gifts for friends and family.

 

[tennesseean_87]

Mine is done lagering, but I'm waiting to get a colonna to cork some bottles before I package. I'm hoping for early April consumption around the time my child is born.

 

[DSmith]

I think that's a good timeframe for a Tripel. A good pitch of yeast, temperature control during fermentation, a month of lagering, a month or two of bottle conditioning = a nice Triple IMO. I have bottles that are 12 months and have lost a lot of the hop bitterness, aroma & flavor that balanced the pilsner malt. These bottles were better sooner, where Dubbels & Quads have always seemed to improve with more age.

Others may prefer how the Tripel ages vs. a younger one.

 

[tennesseean_87]

It was a big debate in my mind. I've read some posters on here say they get better up to a year, and some like them fresh. Listening to a little bit of the Jamil show it seems that he thinks they're good fresh, but need the age to taste "authentic", i.e., imported and distributed long enough to age. I just get that impression from a few comments I've heard, he didn't specifically mention anything but lagering 4 weeks.

 

[TrickyDick]

I'm bottling mine tomorrow... I mean it this time too!

Thinking 3.0 volumes will be good. A part of me want to go 3.5, but I don't have enough belgian style bottles to handle the higher pressures.

Drank my last Dubbel brew again yesterday and I think it is finally ready. I brewed it in March and at 6 months tasting it wasn't there yet. I agree on the Darker belgian styles improving with age. Never had a fresh triple before, so am looking forward to it.

TD

 

[crusader1612]

I'm bottling mine tomorrow... I mean it this time too! Thinking 3.0 volumes will be good. A part of me want to go 3.5, but I don't have enough belgian style bottles to handle the higher pressures. Drank my last Dubbel brew again yesterday and I think it is finally ready. I brewed it in March and at 6 months tasting it wasn't there yet. I agree on the Darker belgian styles improving with age. Never had a fresh triple before, so am looking forward to it. TD

I know it's only been a couple of months. But interested to see any results. It's an awesome beer

 

[TrickyDick]

I know it's only been a couple of months. But interested to see any results. It's an awesome beer

Well I had other tasks in the brewery and didn't get around to doing any bottling just yet. HOPEFULLY on Saturday I can bottle up a bunch of beer.

One question. My previous Belgian style Dubbel I added CBC-1 Lallemand yeast (Cask and Bottle Conditioning Yeast hence the CBC). When I open a 750ml bottle and pour a glass, by the time I am ready to pour the next glass the yeast is re-suspended. Perhaps the yeast is partially disturbed before I've even opened the bottle, but I suspect this conditioning yeast isn't a great floculator as I hoped. How well does the WLP530 do after cold crashing and bottling? How well does it floc in the bottle when pouring? I've started to pour both glass at the same time then stashing one in the fridge until I'm ready for it to prevent the yeast from getting into the glass, which has been considerable.

Also, 3.0 or 3.5 volumes?

TD