Treehouse Brewing Julius Clone

[prophet413]

Fwiw

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[ultravista]

I bought a can about that size from YCH and got about 30 10ml syringes of hoppy bitterness.

 

[stickyfinger]

I bought a can about that size from YCH and got about 30 10ml syringes of hoppy bitterness.

i've been wondering if a hoppier approach isn't to just bitterwith a huge dose of hops at flameout. you get some hop character and the bittering

 

[ultravista]

The goal for me was an inexpensive bittering addition. The can, with shipping, was less than $26. I will have enough for the next 30 batches

 

[stickyfinger]

The goal for me was an inexpensive bittering addition. The can, with shipping, was less than $26. I will have enough for the next 30 batches

i like the fact that it leaves no trace when it comes time to rack to carboy. It would be a great option for users of plate chillers

 

[Gustatorian]

The goal for me was an inexpensive bittering addition. The can, with shipping, was less than $26. I will have enough for the next 30 batches

I've heard theres issues with that stuff migrating to the sides of the kettle and sticking...I'd be worried about alpha-acid extraction/isomerization if that was the case.

 

[Mordhaus]

Kegged today. 17 oz. of dry hop in a six gallon batch made it a bitch in a Speidel. Had to force the first 20 oz. of goo out using 10 psi of co2. It's juicy alright and the color is impressive. Interested to see what happens here once it's carbed. View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1485746179.850413.jpg

 

[olotti]

Kegged today. 17 oz. of dry hop in a six gallon batch made it a bitch in a Speidel. Had to force the first 20 oz. of goo out using 10 psi of co2. It's juicy alright and the color is impressive. Interested to see what happens here once it's carbed. View attachment 386841

Wow 17oz dry hop! Did you use any in the boil or whirlpool? I just made a dipa with 20oz total and I thought that was well not huge but a large amount for a 5 gal batch.

 

[Mordhaus]

Wow 17oz dry hop! Did you use any in the boil or whirlpool? I just made a dipa with 20oz total and I thought that was well not huge but a large amount for a 5 gal batch.

An oz at 60 and 8.5 oz for a 30 minute hopstand.

 

[stickyfinger]

I am finally trying something that I've always wanted to try. I just brewed it up today. I omitted hops entirely from the kettle. I did a 90% GW 2-row, 10% GW Crystal 15L mash with no hops! I'm going to add 12 oz for the dryhop and see if the bitterness from that is adequate. I usually only do like 20 IBUs anyway, so I thought it might be just as good to not bitter at all. Still debating b/w Denali-Eureka and Denali-Euraka-Citra

 

[olotti]

An oz at 60 and 8.5 oz for a 30 minute hopstand.

So u used 26oz of hops in a 6 gal batch? i can't imagine the sludge that would collect at the bottom of the primary with 17oz of dry hopping.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Not to put down anyone's recipe formulations, but after some time on this thread, you think we would be able to effin come up with something damn near close???

I think that lots of people have come up with damn near close.

I've done it (actually I would say mine was closer to Green than Julius, or maybe a blend of the two) and I don't even bother with most of the details and nit-picky processes that many of the posters here do.

You're saying you haven't even gotten close?

I would say the only thing missing from mine was not quite hitting the "pillowy" mouthfeel, but I don't bother with water adjustment. (and I used WLP 001!)

Now if you're looking for exact clone, well, I guess not, but I'm close enough that I don't go wait in line at Treehouse for $4 cans of beer anymore.

The point of this post is not to say what a great brewer I am, but to make the observation that it seems like people think nobody has been able to replicate something that's a 95% solution for a clone, but I think lots of people are doing it.

And it doesn't require LODO or any other such nonsense.

 

[Mordhaus]

So u used 26oz of hops in a 6 gal batch? i can't imagine the sludge that would collect at the bottom of the primary with 17oz of dry hopping.

Yep. The sludge in the bottom of my 30L Speidel was up to the 1.75 gallon mark. This batch is making me consider a Norcal Brewing Solutions dip tube.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Yep. The sludge in the bottom of my 30L Speidel was up to the 1.75 gallon mark. This batch is making me consider a Norcal Brewing Solutions dip tube.

17 oz? wow.

I have to wonder when we hit a point of diminishing returns. i.e. the beer simply won't hold any more hop compounds in solution or suspension at a given temperature. Or maybe a sensory threshold beyond which adding more doesn't add to our ability to perceive "more"?

Have you tried steps up to 17 oz and found there's room for more hops compounds? I'd be curious to try the same beer with, say, 6 oz of dry hops vs. 10 oz vs. 15+ oz (or 1 oz/gal, 1.5 oz/gal, 2 oz/gal), and so on.

 

[TheHairyHop]

I am finally trying something that I've always wanted to try. I just brewed it up today. I omitted hops entirely from the kettle. I did a 90% GW 2-row, 10% GW Crystal 15L mash with no hops! I'm going to add 12 oz for the dryhop and see if the bitterness from that is adequate. I usually only do like 20 IBUs anyway, so I thought it might be just as good to not bitter at all. Still debating b/w Denali-Eureka and Denali-Euraka-Citra

I did no kettle except 40 IBUs at 60 and it came out great. I assume that no IBUs could be fine. Go with the Citra combo!

 

[Mordhaus]

17 oz? wow.

I have to wonder when we hit a point of diminishing returns. i.e. the beer simply won't hold any more hop compounds in solution or suspension at a given temperature. Or maybe a sensory threshold beyond which adding more doesn't add to our ability to perceive "more"?

Have you tried steps up to 17 oz and found there's room for more hops compounds? I'd be curious to try the same beer with, say, 6 oz of dry hops vs. 10 oz vs. 15+ oz (or 1 oz/gal, 1.5 oz/gal, 2 oz/gal), and so on.

That's something I'll be paying attention to. This is the first time I've brewed this beer and decided that I was going to go over the top with the hops just to see. My last beer was just 2-row and Munich 20 with an oz of Columbus @60, a 3 oz hop stand and a 3 oz dry hop with equal parts Citra, Mosaic and Cascade. It was good, but left me wanting more. I'll know more once this Julius is carbed and where to go from here.

 

[olotti]

17 oz? wow.

I have to wonder when we hit a point of diminishing returns. i.e. the beer simply won't hold any more hop compounds in solution or suspension at a given temperature. Or maybe a sensory threshold beyond which adding more doesn't add to our ability to perceive "more"?

Have you tried steps up to 17 oz and found there's room for more hops compounds? I'd be curious to try the same beer with, say, 6 oz of dry hops vs. 10 oz vs. 15+ oz (or 1 oz/gal, 1.5 oz/gal, 2 oz/gal), and so on.

I was thinking the same thing so I'm glad you threw this in there. I gotta believe that at some point the beer can only hold so many hop compounds that at some point it just surpasses what is actually being utilized. Kinda like taking an over abundance of protein powder, the body can only utilize so much then the rest is just pissed out and now your losing money. But hey if people can afford to throw these massive massive amount of hops in their beers than more power to them. I also think that would be an interesting dry hop experiment, it'd be nice to have them all on hand at one time so one can smell and taste them up against one another and really see if or what the differences are.

 

[kevink]

But hey if people can afford to throw these massive massive amount of hops in their beers than more power to them.

It's not cheap, but it's a lot cheaper than buying equivalent beer from Treehouse, Trillium, Tired Hands, or wherever.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

I was thinking the same thing so I'm glad you threw this in there. I gotta believe that at some point the beer can only hold so many hop compounds that at some point it just surpasses what is actually being utilized. Kinda like taking an over abundance of protein powder, the body can only utilize so much then the rest is just pissed out and now your losing money. But hey if people can afford to throw these massive massive amount of hops in their beers than more power to them. I also think that would be an interesting dry hop experiment, it'd be nice to have them all on hand at one time so one can smell and taste them up against one another and really see if or what the differences are.

Yeah, now I am thinking my next brew may be an exbeeriment. It will be easy to do, just brew a normal batch and split it 3 ways and dry hop each with the same blend of hops, but in differing amounts (like 1, 1.5, and 2 oz/gal, or even more extreme, like 1, 2, and 3 oz/gal).

 

[olotti]

It's not cheap, but it's a lot cheaper than buying equivalent beer from Treehouse, Trillium, Tired Hands, or wherever.

True.

 

[Ashevillain]

Yeah, now I am thinking my next brew may be an exbeeriment. It will be easy to do, just brew a normal batch and split it 3 ways and dry hop each with the same blend of hops, but in differing amounts (like 1, 1.5, and 2 oz/gal, or even more extreme, like 1, 2, and 3 oz/gal).

I would be very interested in these results.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

I would be very interested in these results.

I was thinking about this on the way home, and I think the 1, 2, 3 oz/gal is a better measure initially. I'm pretty sure there will be a mild difference between 1 and 2, but I'm not so sure there will be much difference between 2 and 3 (there is some "wisdom" going around out there that around 1.6 oz/gal may be optimal). But that's what the experiment will determine.

I'll probably do this in about two weeks - I don't think I'll have time to brew until then. And I will report back the results. If they indicate a point of diminishing returns, it may save some people some $$ on hops.

I'm thinking about a 2-hop blend, with the front-runner combinations being:

• Citra/amarillo
• Citra/Centennial
• Citra/ Mosaic

I would consider Citra/Galaxy, but I just did that combo recently. It is amazing, but I want to experiment.
Anybody tried Citra/ Centennial (50/50)?

 

[olotti]

I was thinking about this on the way home, and I think the 1, 2, 3 oz/gal is a better measure initially. I'm pretty sure there will be a mild difference between 1 and 2, but I'm not so sure there will be much difference between 2 and 3 (there is some "wisdom" going around out there that around 1.6 oz/gal may be optimal). But that's what the experiment will determine.

I'll probably do this in about two weeks - I don't think I'll have time to brew until then. And I will report back the results. If they indicate a point of diminishing returns, it may save some people some $$ on hops.

I'm thinking about a 2-hop blend, with the front-runner combinations being:

• Citra/amarillo
• Citra/Centennial
• Citra/ Mosaic

I would consider Citra/Galaxy, but I just did that combo recently. It is amazing, but I want to experiment.
Anybody tried Citra/ Centennial (50/50)?

Look forward to the results. I'd go with combo 1 and 3, those are the most aromatic and heavily oiled hops which it seems is better for dryhopping and getting all Those oils floating around in the beer. Nothing wrong with centennial but I just don't know how much it would add going in with citra such a pungent hop and while I know Amarillo isn't very aa heavy it's great for flavor and aromatics and that's what I assume we're going after here.

 

[crusader1612]

Look forward to the results. I'd go with combo 1 and 3, those are the most aromatic and heavily oiled hops which it seems is better for dryhopping and getting all Those oils floating around in the beer. Nothing wrong with centennial but I just don't know how much it would add going in with citra such a pungent hop and while I know Amarillo isn't very aa heavy it's great for flavor and aromatics and that's what I assume we're going after here.

Citra/Centennial works really well. but you have to lean on the Centennial a bit. (2:1 ratio) then you get a cool citrus/flowery thing going on.

 

[olotti]

Citra/Centennial works really well. but you have to lean on the Centennial a bit. (2:1 ratio) then you get a cool citrus/flowery thing going on.

Totally get that but in these neipa's it's all about tropics and juice and like you said centennial is flowery/perfume and whil I like it in my two hearted I just can't see it fitting right in this style of beer. But that's just me and I'm not saying it wouldn't be great in any other style IPA but there's a reason everyone of these neipa's wether made by treehouse, trillium, monkish, etc mostly use the Galaxy, Citra, mosaic, is for that pronounced tropic juice note these specific hops give and I'll throw Vic secret in there too as I just bottled a Citra/Amarillo/Vic secret dipa and its giving me on a sample an almost mosaic note with that berry and slight dankness. Again I'm not saying it won't work not trying to start anything here I just see the flowery part of centennial being to different for this style but hey maybe it'd be a good experiment.

 

[Ashevillain]

I have tried many examples of ipas with mosiac, and i'd say only 2-3 out of that lot were seriously fruity/juicy due to the potent dankness that mosaic has. In the ipas with mosaic that had characteristic NEIPA flavor, i would not have guessed mosaic was in there, but those few examples were delicious. Is mosaic just a completely different thing if added below 170? Because IMO it easily overpowers most blends ive tried with dank resinous sweet pine, not fruitiness. This is coming from someone whos never brewed with it due my experience with most commercial examples.

 

[olotti]

I have tried many examples of ipas with mosiac, and i'd say only 2-3 out of that lot were seriously fruity/juicy due to the potent dankness that mosaic has. In the ipas with mosaic that had characteristic NEIPA flavor, i would not have guessed mosaic was in there, but those few examples were delicious. Is mosaic just a completely different thing if added below 170? Because IMO it easily overpowers most blends ive tried with dank resinous sweet pine, not fruitiness. This is coming from someone whos never brewed with it due my experience with most commercial examples.

In my experience brewing with mosaic is a def dankness but it's not like Apollo dank it has that to me real sweet grapefruit not bitter grapefruit and a lot say berry note to it which I did get on a beer I made awhile back with an all mosaic whirlpool and dry hop. So maybe using it in a whirlpool and just dry hop smooths the dankness a little plus it also depends on what other hops it's used with. It matches nicely with the high oil content hops of the Citra and galaxy but mosaic def will overpower an Amarillo or less oil laden hop if used on a 1:1 scale.

 

[Ashevillain]

Thanks for the reply @olotti i will give mocaic a shot at fruitiness sometime in the near future, outnumbered by some of my favored oil laden strains. i love the hop in general for its potency, but i always hear neipa recipes with it and get confused. Hope i can clear this up in a few batches

 

[TheHairyHop]

many NEIPAs I've had are 100% mosaic (or so they claim) and they are extreme melon bombs. I also got a decent amount of pine when brewing with that hop. I have not tried it only in cold side additions, however. that is my next NEIPA

 

[Tijuanatovar]

https://ychhops.com/connect/news/blog/brewery-perspectives

 

[crusader1612]

Totally get that but in these neipa's it's all about tropics and juice and like you said centennial is flowery/perfume and whil I like it in my two hearted I just can't see it fitting right in this style of beer. But that's just me and I'm not saying it wouldn't be great in any other style IPA but there's a reason everyone of these neipa's wether made by treehouse, trillium, monkish, etc mostly use the Galaxy, Citra, mosaic, is for that pronounced tropic juice note these specific hops give and I'll throw Vic secret in there too as I just bottled a Citra/Amarillo/Vic secret dipa and its giving me on a sample an almost mosaic note with that berry and slight dankness. Again I'm not saying it won't work not trying to start anything here I just see the flowery part of centennial being to different for this style but hey maybe it'd be a good experiment.

While this is true. I find that something these "fruit juice bombs" get a little tiresome. (don't get me wrong I enjoy them as much as the next guy) but I likethe idea of throwing in a hop that adds a separate dimension to the beer, adding some citruc fruit to the mix.

and lets be honest, it'd still work pretty well, its a hop highly suited for an ipa, and well, you essentially making an ipa. it just hits some different flavor notes than the west coast versions, that doesn't mean it'll be out of place.

 

[stickyfinger]

Totally get that but in these neipa's it's all about tropics and juice and like you said centennial is flowery/perfume and whil I like it in my two hearted I just can't see it fitting right in this style of beer. But that's just me and I'm not saying it wouldn't be great in any other style IPA but there's a reason everyone of these neipa's wether made by treehouse, trillium, monkish, etc mostly use the Galaxy, Citra, mosaic, is for that pronounced tropic juice note these specific hops give and I'll throw Vic secret in there too as I just bottled a Citra/Amarillo/Vic secret dipa and its giving me on a sample an almost mosaic note with that berry and slight dankness. Again I'm not saying it won't work not trying to start anything here I just see the flowery part of centennial being to different for this style but hey maybe it'd be a good experiment.

i did an all-centennial version and it wasn't good. really bitter and weird roasty character. it was 3 oz per gal dryhop. not good

 

[stickyfinger]

I have tried many examples of ipas with mosiac, and i'd say only 2-3 out of that lot were seriously fruity/juicy due to the potent dankness that mosaic has. In the ipas with mosaic that had characteristic NEIPA flavor, i would not have guessed mosaic was in there, but those few examples were delicious. Is mosaic just a completely different thing if added below 170? Because IMO it easily overpowers most blends ive tried with dank resinous sweet pine, not fruitiness. This is coming from someone whos never brewed with it due my experience with most commercial examples.

i completely agree i get a unique light dank and some floral sometimes from mosaic

 

[crusader1612]

i did an all-centennial version and it wasn't good. really bitter and weird roasty character. it was 3 oz per gal dryhop. not good

Excessive dryhop on these more citrus type hope can be a bit much IMO. the citra's mosaics' etc arethe ones where you can drhop the S**T out of it and still get the good hop flavor. huge dryhops of those C type hops tend to get weird. moderation is key, and of course layering of hops

 

[Gustatorian]

Are there any hard-pressed rules that you guys have figured out about the grain bill for NEIPAs? I'm assuming a large percentage of oats or wheat (flaked or malted)? Golden Naked Oats?

 

[stickyfinger]

Are there any hard-pressed rules that you guys have figured out about the grain bill for NEIPAs? I'm assuming a large percentage of oats or wheat (flaked or malted)? Golden Naked Oats?

I guess the closest thing to a real rule would be a BJCP standard, which does not exist yet. In terms of what is required to produce a reasonable example of the style, I'd say not much is really required. You simply want to produce a super hoppy IPA that TENDS toward less bitterness and fuller/rounder perception, often with more fruity hops. The end result is almost always very hazy to turbid. (For example, I've made a few now that contain no adjuncts such as flaked grains whatsoever, and they fit the bill just fine.)

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Are there any hard-pressed rules that you guys have figured out about the grain bill for NEIPAs? I'm assuming a large percentage of oats or wheat (flaked or malted)? Golden Naked Oats?

The grain bills vary greatly. There are no rules.
In general though, use light malts and go easy on the crystal (if used at all). You'll often see some Vienna or even Munich for a little color and to provide some structure and a little malt backbone. Most will have some combination of wheat and/or oats, but not all (and none of them use a "large" percentage).
The key is that the malt profile not do anything to compete for attention with the hops character. So you don't want anything assertive or that stands out. The beer is simply a vehicle for the hops in this style.

In all reality, the hops is so dominant that if you made half a dozen different NEIPAs with different grain bills but the same hops schedule, you would be unlikely to be able to tell them apart, other than maybe color variations.

 

[Gustatorian]

I guess the closest thing to a real rule would be a BJCP standard, which does not exist yet. In terms of what is required to produce a reasonable example of the style, I'd say not much is really required. You simply want to produce a super hoppy IPA that TENDS toward less bitterness and fuller/rounder perception, often with more fruity hops. The end result is almost always very hazy to turbid. (For example, I've made a few now that contain no adjuncts such as flaked grains whatsoever, and they fit the bill just fine.)

Does anyone have a "go-to" base grain bill? Something that they can work several hop varietals into?

 

[stickyfinger]

The grain bills vary greatly. There are no rules.
In general though, use light malts and go easy on the crystal (if used at all). You'll often see some Vienna or even Munich for a little color and to provide some structure and a little malt backbone. Most will have some combination of wheat and/or oats, but not all (and none of them use a "large" percentage).
The key is that the malt profile not do anything to compete for attention with the hops character. So you don't want anything assertive or that stands out. The beer is simply a vehicle for the hops in this style.

In all reality, the hops is so dominant that if you made half a dozen different NEIPAs with different grain bills but the same hops schedule, you would be unlikely to be able to tell them apart, other than maybe color variations.

I really don't have a great grasp on what the commercial breweries are doing. I think that there very well may be NEIPA versions of all of the specialty IPAs at some point. I've made a Red NEIPA, for example, that had substantial crystal malt (C60), and it was quite delicious but adhered to the very basic idea of an NEIPA:

-tons and tons of fresh hop character (often fruity)
-very low bittering or low impression of ibu's
-rounded overall character (except for the hops)

I am planning to do an NEIPA version of other various IPA styles and see how they come out (eg Brown, Black, White)

I am interested to see if the BJCP guidelines will incorporate NEIPA at some point given the huge bias and misunderstanding of them by some brewers.

 

[TheHairyHop]

Does anyone have a "go-to" base grain bill? Something that they can work several hop varietals into?

this doesn't really answer your question, but this thread sure goes over quite a bit of getting Trillium's "flagship" IPA, with input from JC himself

https://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/anyone-have-a-congress-st-clone-recipe.267947/

there's a Fort Point grain bill that I'm sure could form a reliable base