Treehouse Brewing Julius Clone

[stickyfinger]

man 2oz dryhop is huge!!! thats 10ounces in 5 gal
283Grams!! holy Crap on a cracker!

It IS huge. However, the resulting beer has incredible hop flavor, like drinking squeezed hops. AND, I don't add any kettle hops except a small bittering charge at 60 mins. If you add 2 oz/gal in dry hop, you will have an IPA that tastes great for several weeks, at least 6, likely longer, super hazy.

I am now of the opinion that the absolute primary reason for haze in these NE IPAs is a HUGE dry hop charge in the primary. The oats, chloride and the rest are not necessary, I think!

Also, remember you can mix in "cheap" hops to add character but keep cost down if that is an issue for you. CTZ is only like $0.50/oz and can add a lot of character to any beer for example. I like the newer hops though for huge dry hopping, as they can be added in huge amounts without weird off-flavors or excessive bitterness in many cases.

I did a 3 oz/gallon Centennial dry-hopped IPA that just tasted weird. I am very confident I could do that with Citra and have a fantastic beer.

 

[JoeMamasIPA]

It IS huge. However, the resulting beer has incredible hop flavor, like drinking squeezed hops. AND, I don't add any kettle hops except a small bittering charge at 60 mins. If you add 2 oz/gal in dry hop, you will have an IPA that tastes great for several weeks, at least 6, likely longer, super hazy.

I am now of the opinion that the absolute primary reason for haze in these NE IPAs is a HUGE dry hop charge in the primary. The oats, chloride and the rest are not necessary, I think!

Also, remember you can mix in "cheap" hops to add character but keep cost down if that is an issue for you. CTZ is only like $0.50/oz and can add a lot of character to any beer for example. I like the newer hops though for huge dry hopping, as they can be added in huge amounts without weird off-flavors or excessive bitterness in many cases.

I did a 3 oz/gallon Centennial dry-hopped IPA that just tasted weird. I am very confident I could do that with Citra and have a fantastic beer.

Amen! You can do it with less hops but it all depends on freshness. My final DH only gets fresh, brand name hops. The boil and all other additions get whatever is leftover in the freezer.

 

[crusader1612]

It IS huge. However, the resulting beer has incredible hop flavor, like drinking squeezed hops. AND, I don't add any kettle hops except a small bittering charge at 60 mins. If you add 2 oz/gal in dry hop, you will have an IPA that tastes great for several weeks, at least 6, likely longer, super hazy.

I am now of the opinion that the absolute primary reason for haze in these NE IPAs is a HUGE dry hop charge in the primary. The oats, chloride and the rest are not necessary, I think!

Also, remember you can mix in "cheap" hops to add character but keep cost down if that is an issue for you. CTZ is only like $0.50/oz and can add a lot of character to any beer for example. I like the newer hops though for huge dry hopping, as they can be added in huge amounts without weird off-flavors or excessive bitterness in many cases.

I did a 3 oz/gallon Centennial dry-hopped IPA that just tasted weird. I am very confident I could do that with Citra and have a fantastic beer.

Ok, sweet!
any chance of a recipe for something lik this to get me started??

 

[lilbova3]

Amen! You can do it with less hops but it all depends on freshness. My final DH only gets fresh, brand name hops. The boil and all other additions get whatever is leftover in the freezer.

It IS huge. However, the resulting beer has incredible hop flavor, like drinking squeezed hops. AND, I don't add any kettle hops except a small bittering charge at 60 mins. If you add 2 oz/gal in dry hop, you will have an IPA that tastes great for several weeks, at least 6, likely longer, super hazy.



I am now of the opinion that the absolute primary reason for haze in these NE IPAs is a HUGE dry hop charge in the primary. The oats, chloride and the rest are not necessary, I think!



Also, remember you can mix in "cheap" hops to add character but keep cost down if that is an issue for you. CTZ is only like $0.50/oz and can add a lot of character to any beer for example. I like the newer hops though for huge dry hopping, as they can be added in huge amounts without weird off-flavors or excessive bitterness in many cases.



I did a 3 oz/gallon Centennial dry-hopped IPA that just tasted weird. I am very confident I could do that with Citra and have a fantastic beer.

That's what Trillium is doing. Every beer is bittered and WP with Columbus then a huge dry hop of delicious aromatic hops.

I've been doing no boil hops, small WP amount and rest dry hop. The most recent one I did today only included 1 oz in WP and will dry hop with 7 oz. 4 gallon batch size. So 1.75 oz hops/gallon dry hop.

A fun fact about Trillium, their Headroom beer is about 3 oz/gallon dry hop.

 

[jrodmfish]

Nailed it! very nicely put
I've never tasted a difference between fined and non-fined beer. at least not enough to make me change any part of my process.

Something I don't understand about people who decide to make this style, is that people see the haze as an essential part of the style, where as in fact it is merely a "symptom" of the beer itself. Caused by the ingredients, how they are applied and their reactions with each other (e.g Low flocc yeast, late hops and flaked oats/what)
(i.e flour is not required) if you kettle fined previously, you continue to do the same, and in my case i you fine in the keg as well you continue to do the same.

a hunk of oats, a low flocc yeast and a S**T ton of late hops and ryhops will get you exactly where you need to be. (I'm yet to test out the high chloride ratio though - only because I've got my water profile for hoppy beers on point)

I agree and disagree with your statements... I think there is a distinct difference in the taste of a clean beer versus a "muddy mess". Some of it depends though on your packaging method. IE... if you keg, the beer will naturally clean up due to being cold. Many homebrewers say their beer tastes better towards the end of a keg. Personally, I don't use gelatin, but I fine by beer by using conical fermenters, cold crashing, and using biofine in some.

I agree with you on the NEIPA haze thing. Haze is not the point, it's a byproduct.

 

[stickyfinger]

That's what Trillium is doing. Every beer is bittered and WP with Columbus then a huge dry hop of delicious aromatic hops.

I've been doing no boil hops, small WP amount and rest dry hop. The most recent one I did today only included 1 oz in WP and will dry hop with 7 oz. 4 gallon batch size. So 1.75 oz hops/gallon dry hop.

A fun fact about Trillium, their Headroom beer is about 3 oz/gallon dry hop.

Wow, 3 oz/gal for commercial is epic. cool idea on CTZ-only in the kettle

 

[stickyfinger]

Ok, sweet!
any chance of a recipe for something lik this to get me started??

Here's one I did lately that I liked:

TF Golden Promise Pale Malt 2.3L 80%
Carapils 2L 10%
Briess Caramel 10L 5%
Briess Caramel 20L 5%
OG: 1.060
sulfate 13 ppm, chloride 150 ppm in Mash and HLT
20 IBU (Rager formula) of Warrior at 60 min
chill and ferment with yeast of choice at temp of choice
On day 3-5 add in 6 oz of Citra and 6 oz of Galaxy pellet hops
Swirl once-twice daily and leave until day 10-14 after pitching yeast
Chill for one day to drop hop particles and rack to purged keg.

Not sure the Carapils is doing much, after the Brulosophy XBMT. You can go darker or lighter on the crystal depending on what you like in terms of caramel flavor. Also, you can just use ordinary 2-row pale malt and it will be excellent.

 

[martiniw2olives]

Here is my take at 6.5 gallons:

Grain
2 row 13.25 lbs
Flakes oats 3.5 lbs
Dextrine 1.25 lbs
Caramunich 6 oz lbs

Hops
Columbus 1 oz 60 min
Citra .5 oz 60 min
Simcoe 2 oz 5 min
Amarillo 4 oz 0 min
Citra 2 oz 0 min
Amarillo 2 oz dry
Citra 2 oz dry

 

[crusader1612]

On day 3-5 add in 6 oz of Citra and 6 oz of Galaxy pellet hops
Swirl once-twice daily and leave until day 10-14 after pitching yeast.

Ok, I'm quite interested in this particular part.
10 days on the dryhop is quite a lengthy period for me..... is there any particular reason behind the logner period (apart from dryhopping early)

 

[stickyfinger]

Ok, I'm quite interested in this particular part.
10 days on the dryhop is quite a lengthy period for me..... is there any particular reason behind the logner period (apart from dryhopping early)

I have not done a systematic study of dry hop time - mostly a function of the early dryhop, as you point out:

I want to add the dry hops when the yeast are very active, and I also want the beer to completely ferment out. I have not really noticed this being an issue flavor-wise, but I have not done a side-by-side comparison on a particular recipe.

 

[TheHairyHop]

you don't need 10 days to get the flavors from dryhop, but as sticky said, you do have to wait for FG. I typically keg it once I'm a few points from my expected FG so that I can carb in the serving vessel.

 

[crusader1612]

you don't need 10 days to get the flavors from dryhop, but as sticky said, you do have to wait for FG. I typically keg it once I'm a few points from my expected FG so that I can carb in the serving vessel.

Of course. I was more interested i nthe reasoning (if any behind the extended dryhop)
I would say as well, that if your dryhopping up to 10 ounces longer than my standard 3-4days dryhop schedules may not be sufficient anyway for contact time. an additional day or 2 would probably be enough (although i would expect to clog things on my transfer.)

 

[melville]

tell that to Bissell Brothers. Sheesh, they think I'll perceive it as juicy.



It'll certainly be interesting to see how these beers are "properly" judged in a few years once all the hubbub has died down. For now, I think haze is pretty essential, but it's hard to feel too strongly. I'm just glad I can get hop bombs that don't have 100 IBUs!

Julius is over 100 (theoretical) IBUs.

 

[nimboden]

Julius is over 100 (theoretical) IBUs.

It definitely is not. While they don't advertise their target IBUs it is no where in the range of 100. I work in a lab and have tested the BUs on this beer and I can absolutely say its no where near 100.

 

[02RedWS6TA]

My recipe doing 15 gallons of this has an IBU target of around 80. Not sure how close that is but it'll smell an entire room up when poured.

 

[nimboden]

My recipe doing 15 gallons of this has an IBU target of around 80. Not sure how close that is but it'll smell an entire room up when poured.

80BUs could work depends how much alcohol and malt sweetness you have to back it up. See page 45 of this post to see what my results were. Personally I really hope these milky IPAs go out trend as fast as possible. I love a good juicy IPA but when it looks like milk, at least on commercial scale, it just looks sloppy. Flour in any beer is absolutely unnecessary.

 

[02RedWS6TA]

80BUs could work depends how much alcohol and malt sweetness you have to back it up. See page 45 of this post to see what my results were. Personally I really hope these milky IPAs go out trend as fast as possible. I love a good juicy IPA but when it looks like milk, at least on commercial scale, it just looks sloppy. Flour in any beer is absolutely unnecessary.

I've brewed a 10 gallon batch already around 80ibu's. No flour ever used. Barf.

First 10 gallons lasted 3 weeks.

 

[melville]

It definitely is not. While they don't advertise their target IBUs it is no where in the range of 100. I work in a lab and have tested the BUs on this beer and I can absolutely say its no where near 100.

Well Nate says it is "well north of 100" at least by design anyway. If I was making a clone, he'd be my main source of advice, so based on what Nate has stated on Twitter, it seems likely that Julius would be north of 100 IBUs in BeerSmith, would have no flaked adjuncts or wheat, and wouldn't be higher in chloride vs sulfate.

 

[melville]

Specifically said no flaked anything, and when asked about oats, replied "most do not". That does leave a small opening maybe that Julius might have malted oats, but oats not a tree house staple ingredient per conventional wisdom. My last beer was Golden Promise, Munich, C-15, Honey Malt and harvested Tree House yeast. Looked, tasted, felt like a Tree House beer. The yeast (possibly yeasts) and water is everything here.

 

[melville]

A pic of the beer with Tree House yeast. (Galaxy, Amarillo, Chinook hops).

 

[jammin]

A pic of the beer with Tree House yeast. (Galaxy, Amarillo, Chinook hops).

Can I take pics like this with my iPhone haha

 

[Little_Lebowski]

Tree house yeast? Like actually harvested from cans or what?

 

[Little_Lebowski]

80BUs could work depends how much alcohol and malt sweetness you have to back it up. See page 45 of this post to see what my results were. Personally I really hope these milky IPAs go out trend as fast as possible. I love a good juicy IPA but when it looks like milk, at least on commercial scale, it just looks sloppy. Flour in any beer is absolutely unnecessary.

So we can go back to drinking dusty bottle clear west coast amber colored cascade and grapefruit bitter shelf IPAs brewed 6-12 months earlier??

The haze isn't the craze man. It's a byproduct of serveral brewing practices that all happen to be deliciously crushable thanks to the low perceived bitterness and the tropical American hop selections

I wouldn't stick around to wait so get on your horse and ride west broseph

Ps. The shaming attempts with flour allegations is tired and overwhelmingly debunked

 

[melville]

Tree house yeast? Like actually harvested from cans or what?

Yep, harvested from Julius.

 

[Gustatorian]

Yep, harvested from Julius.

Care to share the specs of your recipe? What did the water look like?

 

[melville]

Mind you I wasn't making a Julius clone, just trying the yeast:
78% Golden Promise
10% Munich
6% White Wheat
3% C-15
3% Honey Malt

OG 1.065
100 IBUs in Beersmith
Columbus at 60 for 30 IBUs
Equal amounts Galaxy, Chinook, Amarillo at Flameout (20min) for the rest.

2 Dry Hops

48 hours post pitch: equal amounts of the above (4oz for 2.5 gal batch)
Remove and repeat day 5.
Package day 7.
Final Gravity: 1.015 (higher than expected, but hadn't budged since day 3).

Water: Poland Springs with gypsum and calcium chloride additions to hit SO4:100 Cl:150 (This is just what I've been doing, but seems like Nate at Tree House is more biased toward SO4)

 

[Little_Lebowski]

The more I've been trying these beers (ie trillium, tree house) I'm getting fairly confident that the big tropical stone fruit aroma and flavor is predominately from Conan-esque esters from a fermentation ~67-68F. Trying to hard to get those flavors from hops alone can lead to harsh veg flavors which are pretty much nonexistent in these delicate beers. It seems as though the yeast contribution isn't credited enough.

 

[TheHairyHop]

The more I've been trying these beers (ie trillium, tree house) I'm getting fairly confident that the big tropical stone fruit aroma and flavor is predominately from Conan-esque esters from a fermentation ~67-68F. Trying to hard to get those flavors from hops alone can lead to harsh veg flavors which are pretty much nonexistent in these delicate beers. It seems as though the yeast contribution isn't credited enough.

I believe it's been confirmed that Trillium just uses 007. I have yet to get vegetal flavors from large doses of dry hopping

 

[kevink]

The more I've been trying these beers (ie trillium, tree house) I'm getting fairly confident that the big tropical stone fruit aroma and flavor is predominately from Conan-esque esters from a fermentation ~67-68F. Trying to hard to get those flavors from hops alone can lead to harsh veg flavors which are pretty much nonexistent in these delicate beers. It seems as though the yeast contribution isn't credited enough.

The flavors you described come from hops. The way you get big hop aroma is by adding massive amounts of hops. That's what I have found, anyway. I think there's most likely something wrong with your process or ingredients if you're getting harsh vegetable flavors from hops. Have you ever brewed a beer that has the hop flavor and aroma of a Trillium or Treehouse beer?

 

[stickyfinger]

The flavors you described come from hops. The way you get big hop aroma is by adding massive amounts of hops. That's what I have found, anyway. I think there's most likely something wrong with your process or ingredients if you're getting harsh vegetable flavors from hops. Have you ever brewed a beer that has the hop flavor and aroma of a Trillium or Treehouse beer?

I agree that you can get vegetal flavors from bad hops or also from keg hopping (in my experience.) Some people are more or less sensitive to these characters I think.

 

[melville]

Has this really been confirmed? I feel like it's been suggested and therefore conventional wisdom has come to be that they use 007. The only "confirmation" I've seen is that they use Conan: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=7714765&postcount=72

 

[olotti]

Has this really been confirmed? I feel like it's been suggested and therefore conventional wisdom has come to be that they use 007. The only "confirmation" I've seen is that they use Conan: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=7714765&postcount=72

Funny and I've always thought myself that they use 1318.

 

[Little_Lebowski]

The flavors you described come from hops. The way you get big hop aroma is by adding massive amounts of hops. That's what I have found, anyway. I think there's most likely something wrong with your process or ingredients if you're getting harsh vegetable flavors from hops. Have you ever brewed a beer that has the hop flavor and aroma of a Trillium or Treehouse beer?

I almost don't know how to answer this question. What the **** do you even mean? Let me reword my point here... and this is obviously my experience through trial, error and tasting. Yeast esters contribute more to this style then recent credits acknowledge.

 

[Little_Lebowski]

I believe it's been confirmed that Trillium just uses 007. I have yet to get vegetal flavors from large doses of dry hopping

I don't think I made any claims that any specific breweries use any specific yeast strains. Hence the "Conan-esque" statement. Damn guys need to relax

 

[jready]

I have used both at different temps with similar results to my pallet

 

[droder1]

Funny and I've always thought myself that they use 1318.

pretty sure dave green, when developing the BYO clone for fort point, had 1318 in there originally and JC steered him toward 007. Doesn't mean thats the one, but that was the beginning of the hunch. Its somewhere in a BA homebrewing thread.

 

[leesmith]

Micheal Tonsmire says Trilluim reccomends 007 in an a Basic Brewing Radio podcast from 7-28-16.

 

[olotti]

Micheal Tonsmire says Trilluim reccomends 007 in an a Basic Brewing Radio podcast from 7-28-16.

Hmm. I saved some 007 off a starter with thoughts of trying it after having some TOppling Goliath and being told this was possibly the yeast they used. Prob fire it up in my next go around of this style.

 

[leesmith]

I've used 007 quite a few times and it makes a good hoppy beer. Within reason I think many of the yeasts out there would do a fine job making these style beers...my friend makes a great one with Nelson hops among others that's hazy and juicy and made with 001. He also waits until fermentation is over with to dry hop.

 

[Tijuanatovar]

Has anyone tried low oxygen brewing for hoppy beers? I find a lot of recipes arbitrary when simple tweaking in the method seems to be the ticket. Not to put down anyone's recipe formulations, but after some time on this thread, you think we would be able to effin come up with something damn near close???