Total kegging failure so far.

[NaymzJaymz]

I realize there is a myriad of posts on this subject already, so I mean no disrespect in starting another. My beer is an IPA, and this is my first attempt at kegging. After 11 days at 12 psi @37F, I'm still getting a cup of massive foam that yields a flat beer upon recession. I've read dozens of the threads pertaining to this problem, and I my first attempt at a remedy was to increase the serving line size from 5' to 10', but the problem is no better, perhaps even worse. I'm sure the reason may be that I used 1/4" ID line in place of the original 3/16 of the original. It is cheap, hardware store tubing. I don't know how I would have made the 3/16" work with the fitting on my system. The barbs are so much larger than 3/16. The tubing in the system I bought has very thick walls. Is the key to go to the LHBS and get thick walled 3/16 line at a length of 10'? Even so, is that extra 1/16" of ID the reason for the continued massive glass of foam? Why was it happening already with the 5' line? I' m totally confused. My system is brand new with an American regulator. Thanks,,

 

[chickypad]

Yes, unless you want to run like 40 ft lines you need to go get the 3/16". This seems to be the best consensus calculator for line balancing. You'll probably be good at about 10 feet. Most fittings are 1/4", just stick the end of the tubing in hot water then jam them on.

 

[k1ngl1ves]

Switch to 3/16 lines and your problems will be solved.

I heat my 3/16 lines with a propane torch. I'm impatient. Lol! Fire is way more manly than hot water.

Obviously, I keep the line about 8-10" away from the flame. You can push the line over a 1/4" barb with a little force once heated...

 

[doug293cz]

Switch to 3/16 lines and your problems will be solved.

I heat my 3/16 lines with a propane torch. I'm impatient. Lol! Fire is way more manly than hot water.

Obviously, I keep the line about 8-10" away from the flame. You can push the line over a 1/4" barb with a little force once heated...

A heat shrink tubing heat gun is a slightly less manly, but potentially less exciting way to soften up the 3/16" ID tubing to go over a 1/4" barb.

Brew on

 

[NaymzJaymz]

Thanks friends, I'll try that. I suppose the LHBS will have thick walled 3/16 ID tubing. The 1/4 ID tubing actually has a smaller OD than the 3/16 ID tubing the came with the kit! I can't help but wonder what good there is in the 5 foot length of tubing sold in these untold thousands of kits.

 

[raouliii]

I use boiled water in a coffee cup to soften tubing. No chance of melting.

 

[chickypad]

I'm a girl, so I have no shame sticking with the boiling water!

But yes the LHBS should have the correct tubing.

 

[NaymzJaymz]

Anyone have any opinion on my earlier comment on 5ft hose lengths? Is there any use for a length of serving hose that short? To sum it up, it sounds like everyone is pretty confident that upon switching to a 10ft serving hose length at 3/16" ID, my problem will be remedied. In other words, the additional 5ft of tubing will keep most of the CO2 in the beer liquid with a acceptable head. Is there any scenario in which the problem will stay the same? Remember my stats: IPA @12psi @37f for 12 days w/5' of 3/16"ID serving line. Thanks again. You all rock!

 

[chickypad]

I have no idea why everyone sells the 5 ft lines. There are always a few folks around who say they pour fine but the overwhelming majority of people seem to need 10+ ft. I struggled with 5 then 7ft, before finally going with 11-12ft and I've never had a problem since. If you want to be really sure then start longer, it won't hurt anything you'll just get a slower pour. It's always easier to cut them down then have to replace the whole line. If you think you might ever carb to higher levels then you probably do want to go longer.

 

[doug293cz]

Anyone have any opinion on my earlier comment on 5ft hose lengths? Is there any use for a length of serving hose that short? To sum it up, it sounds like everyone is pretty confident that upon switching to a 10ft serving hose length at 3/16" ID, my problem will be remedied. In other words, the additional 5ft of tubing will keep most of the CO2 in the beer liquid with a acceptable head. Is there any scenario in which the problem will stay the same? Remember my stats: IPA @12psi @37f for 12 days w/5' of 3/16"ID serving line. Thanks again. You all rock!

5 ft hose length might be marginally acceptable if everything else is optimized, but no guarantee. Best to go with the 10 ft length and be confident that you will get good pours all the time.

If you need to deal with a shorter hose for some time, you can cut the pressure when serving to about 5-6 psi to control foam if necessary. Be sure to turn pressure back up when done serving for the day, or you will lose carbonation over time.

Brew on

 

[stpug]

37°F @ 12psi is on the high side of carbonation for most styles (IPA included), and is undoubtedly a factor in your foamy pours. The 5 feet line lengths of proper beverage tubing is not enough for those carbonation levels, and 10 feet of cheap vinyl tubing is not worth the comment. Ten feet (twelve max) of proper 3/16 beverage serving tubing (bevlex 200) would be enough to control the pours from those carbonation levels. You can get away with 5 feet of bevlex 200 at 37F with about ~9psi carbing pressure but once your beer is overcarbed it's a pain to get it back under control, even after de-carbing and re-carbing. Expect this keg to pour a little foamy until it's killed and use your future kegs as your "measuring stick" for carbonation and foam production.

 

[NaymzJaymz]

Doug, I actually tried that, but got nothing but foam at 5psi, just like at 12psi. That's one of the things that mystified me. I have a brand new American made regulator, so I'm confident it's accurate. I'm going to try the 10 foot tube and hope that does the trick. Thanks.

 

[stpug]

Doug, I actually tried that, but got nothing but foam at 5psi, just like at 12psi. That's one of the things that mystified me. I have a brand new American made regulator, so I'm confident it's accurate. I'm going to try the 10 foot tube and hope that does the trick. Thanks.

Maybe you were replying to me, maybe not - doug is kind of like stpug

Since I don't know the processes you've gone through at this point I can only point out that once a beer is pouring mostly foam then "the damage is done" so-to-speak. That beer will "want" to pour foam for basically the remainder of it's life regardless of your efforts to resolve the issue. You CAN get the foam production down a bit through decarbing and lightly recarbing, but you'll still see excessive foam during your pours.

What I was getting at is any future kegs that you carb up at 37F using ~9psi being generally decent pours, but the real solution is longer bevlex200 lines. Longer lines may even resolve your current foamy keg.

 

[NaymzJaymz]

stpug, thanks for your replies, sir. Sorry for not responding until now, but 16 hour work days come first before I can return to my hobby. As grateful as I am for all the advice, the opinions conflict a bit. Despite my inexperience, (first time kegger after filling 1000's of bottles), I've suspected that what you state will be my reality. I'll still very well might get a glass of foam with a 12 foot line(although there will be improvement, I hope). One thing you said surprised me just a bit, 12psi seems to be a very popular "set it and forget it" carbing point(or so I thought), but I may have overcarbed? I think the others were responding to the fact here was no carbonation in the beer, just a huge head of foam, therefore the comments about serving line length. So you recommend 9psi for this type of beer? Thank you!

 

[stratslinger]

My experiences definitely differ from stpug - if you've overcarbed a beer, yes, he's right: it's damn difficult to decarb it appropriately (note, not impossible - just damn difficult) and you'll likely be stuck with foamy pours.

But if the pours are due to line lengths or other issues that do not add up to too much CO2 in your beer, typically an adjustment to whatever the problem is will rectify the situation.

So - if switching to proper 10' long, 3/16" ID beverage tubing still is not helping, look at your lines from the keg to the shank, and see if there's anywhere else that air can be taken into the system. If the beverage line is not adequately seated on the barb, that's a potential spot air could be taken in during a pour.

I recently kegged a beer and had it pour nothing but foam, using the proscribed line sizes and 40F temperatures @ 11PSI. I scratched my head for days before carefully tearing down part of the keg and realizing that, when reassembling it, I left out the gasket on the liquid dip tube. Once I re-sanitized everything and installed that gasket, I started getting perfect pours out of that tap (no joke - a buddy just asked me the other day how I get such perfect pours out of that very tap - go figure). That might be an extreme incident, but it was one where an adjustment netted an almost instant and complete improvement.

Lastly - if you can't find any such ingress for air, and your line sizes are all good - don't assume that your regulator is good because it's new and American made. No QA system is 100%, and bum models can and do ship all the time.

 

[stpug]

As grateful as I am for all the advice, the opinions conflict a bit. Despite my inexperience, (first time kegger after filling 1000's of bottles), I've suspected that what you state will be my reality. I'll still very well might get a glass of foam with a 12 foot line(although there will be improvement, I hope). One thing you said surprised me just a bit, 12psi seems to be a very popular "set it and forget it" carbing point(or so I thought), but I may have overcarbed? I think the others were responding to the fact here was no carbonation in the beer, just a huge head of foam, therefore the comments about serving line length. So you recommend 9psi for this type of beer? Thank you!

I apologize if I'm only serving to confuse the issue, that's not my intent. I just present information from my experience and point-of-view. Keeping in mind that everyone has a different point-of-view, this helps explain why often times in brewing discussions you find differing opinions.

Start here - look at the carbonation chart and see how temperature and pressure relate to overall volumes of carbonation in the beer:
http://www.kegerators.com/carbonation-table.php

You can see that your temp/psi puts you just into the higher-than-standard volumes of carbonation (yellow range). Couple that with the short(ish) beverage serving lines you were using (5 feet) which create a less-than-optimal line resistance, and you run the risk of overly forceful pours which leads to an overproduction of foam (i.e. foamy pours) like you were experiencing.

It's hard to comment on the 10 foot vinyl tubing you bought because it does not have the same wall resistance (less resistance) as proper beverage tubing, and it's increased diameter also creates less resistance. All I can say is that this option is not a good option at all.

Now, truth be told, I keg my beers at ~36-38F and pour using 5-foot bevlex200 serving lines from perlick taps (I have one cobra/picnic tap inside the fridge as well and it's always a little more foamy than the perlicks). I don't have trouble with my kegerator or it's pours, but I'm only serving from 8-10psi (8 for lower carbonation, 9 for typical beers, 10 for higher carbonation). If you reference the chart again then you can see that I'm at less carbonation volumes than you are. So far it works for me and has for years; it's just a matter of finding what you're willing to live with. There have only been a few times I've had overly foamy pours and twice was from over-carbing the keg from the get-go; one other time was from wanting higher volumes of carbonation which is consequence of using short serving lines.

Hopefully this helps explains where my comments are coming from and why they might differ from others opinions. In the end, the simple solution is longer 3/16" beverage serving lines (10') and you should be set for nearly all serving circumstances you'll encounter in the future.

 

[brewprint]

I do the 3/16 line 10ft length @12psi and my pours are good with perlick taps.

I used to have 7ft long 3/16 @10psi with picnic faucets and the pours were always inconsistent. Sometimes good and sometimes bad.

If you have picnic faucets I would go down to 10psi but if you increase the line to 10ft you may be alright.

Also I don't think anyone mentioned that you could have a post seal messed up on the liquid side and that will cause major foam every pour.

 

[NaymzJaymz]

Thanks, stratslinger. The comment about possible overcarbing kind of came out of left field(in my mind), since all the responses seemed to talk about line length, and I've mentioned the 12psi "set it and forget it" point in all my posts so far. What is your opinion on 12psi? Does a glass of foam with no bubbles in the beer indicate a line issue to you, or overcarbing? My keg seems to be fine with all new gaskets and a new lid. Maybe there is a problem with the pour spout assembly or the serving connect?

 

[NaymzJaymz]

stpug, thank you for your input, and you are certainly not confusing things at all! I'm the one who should apologize for redundancy and naïve questioning. I'm pretty devastated at my failure so far, but I've learned a lot from this keg of beer. I'm going to put all this advice to work. It just goes to show that there is no substitute for experience.

 

[philipCT]

I have no idea why everyone sells the 5 ft lines. There are always a few folks around who say they pour fine but the overwhelming majority of people seem to need 10+ ft. I struggled with 5 then 7ft, before finally going with 11-12ft and I've never had a problem since. If you want to be really sure then start longer, it won't hurt anything you'll just get a slower pour. It's always easier to cut them down then have to replace the whole line. If you think you might ever carb to higher levels then you probably do want to go longer.

I have all 10' lines and I wish I had 12-14'. I have a set of taps jut above a direct draw kegerator so there's not much rise. If I keep the pressure at about 10psi everything pours well, but some styles are a little flat for the style On balance though, everything is pretty damn sweet.

 

[stpug]

Thanks, stratslinger. The comment about possible overcarbing kind of came out of left field(in my mind), since all the responses seemed to talk about line length, and I've mentioned the 12psi "set it and forget it" point in all my posts so far. What is your opinion on 12psi? Does a glass of foam with no bubbles in the beer indicate a line issue to you, or overcarbing? My keg seems to be fine with all new gaskets and a new lid. Maybe there is a problem with the pour spout assembly or the serving connect?

37°F @ 12psi is on the high side of carbonation ... and is undoubtedly a factor in your foamy pours. ... once your beer is overcarbed it's a pain to get it back under control... Expect this keg to pour a little foamy until it's killed ...

^^This was mentioned about 8 posts up.

What is your opinion on 12psi? Does a glass of foam with no bubbles in the beer indicate a line issue to you, or overcarbing? Maybe there is a problem with the pour spout assembly or the serving connect?

Redundant, I know, but 12psi at 37F with short serving lines will usually lead to overly foamy pours.

A glass of foam with no bubbles in the beer indicates that there is plenty of carbonation coming from the keg but it's all being knocked out of solution in the glass. This is frequently due to overcarbonation, however it may also be due to turbulence exiting the pouring spout or a venturi effect somewhere along the serving line (i.e. air getting into the liquid line).

stpug, thank you for your input, and you are certainly not confusing things at all! I'm the one who should apologize for redundancy and naïve questioning. I'm pretty devastated at my failure so far, but I've learned a lot from this keg of beer. I'm going to put all this advice to work. It just goes to show that there is no substitute for experience.

Don't be devastated - it's just beer. This is a learning experience. Make some adjustments and get this thing under control so that if it ever happens again you have some great information to gleen from. Sometimes, strange **** happens for unknown reasons. I'm confident that you'll figure out the issue with this keg and get things back under control.

One thing you can do to get a good pour with this keg this:
-Remove gas and bleed most of the co2 from the headspace but leave a little
-Have two glasses ready
-Pour into one glass until you see the stream remain liquid
-Quickly move to your next glass and pour yourself a proper beer

 

[brewprint]

Quick fix:

Purge keg and turn to 4psi for serving. I bet the foam will go away for the most part. This is what I do when I take my traveling keg along for the ride. I just keep it at 5psi with the 7ft picnic faucet and everyone loves it.

 

[NaymzJaymz]

The latest chapter is that my LHBS was out of 3/16 ID thick wall hose, so I used a cheap piece of 3/16 thin wall that I jammed into the thick wall piece(sorry st pug!!!!),creating a 10 ft hose. The result was no change at all- a glass of foam. My jury rigged serving line is no help I'm sure. Upon using brewprints idea of purging the keg, lowering to 4 psi, I got an acceptable pour with some bubbles in the beer. I'm still going to make a proper, 10 ft serving line with thick walled, 3/16 ID tubing. I just had to try it. Is it possible that the cheap picnic tap serving nozzle is a problem? If so, why isn't it leaking? The people at the LHBS said that 3/16 is "old school" I noticed that all their kegorators had short, 1/4 hoses. Should I put the keg back on 12psi after serving? Where does this leave me on the overcarbed question? Anyway, this is where it stands on this fascinating story of mine if anyone cares to comment. St Pug, thanks for the encouragement.

 

[Stealthcruiser]

You'll never narrow it down, with a hose diameter change like that, not to mention the turbulence it adds @ the transition.

Get the right tubing I.D., at least 10 ft. to start with, and I would bump the pressure to 9 or 10 max for that temp.

Turn the CO2 off, bleed the keg a couple of times, 3-5 hours apart at least, over the course of a day, ( cold keg), and reset the pressure as mentioned above,( and let sit for 24 hours, iffn' ya' can wait that long!) and start working from there.

You can then tune carb levels, and your tubing length to get the pour you seek........A useable pour!

Good luck, Brother!

 

[Stealthcruiser]

Double post!

 

[brewprint]

The latest chapter is that my LHBS was out of 3/16 ID thick wall hose, so I used a cheap piece of 3/16 thin wall that I jammed into the thick wall piece(sorry st pug!!!!),creating a 10 ft hose. The result was no change at all- a glass of foam. My jury rigged serving line is no help I'm sure. Upon using brewprints idea of purging the keg, lowering to 4 psi, I got an acceptable pour with some bubbles in the beer. I'm still going to make a proper, 10 ft serving line with thick walled, 3/16 ID tubing. I just had to try it. Is it possible that the cheap picnic tap serving nozzle is a problem? If so, why isn't it leaking? The people at the LHBS said that 3/16 is "old school" I noticed that all their kegorators had short, 1/4 hoses. Should I put the keg back on 12psi after serving? Where does this leave me on the overcarbed question? Anyway, this is where it stands on this fascinating story of mine if anyone cares to comment. St Pug, thanks for the encouragement.

You could probably even turn the CO2 off to be honest and get some good but slower pours. My guess is that your issue is the length of the lines.

Old school eh? That's interesting since I shop at 3 different LHBS and 3/16 thick walled is the standard.

I do remember that my pours were inconsistent with picnic taps but I only kept them at 10psi. After the co2 settles in your keg I would do 10 even with longer lines. I would also do at least 10 feet of line and if you plan to keep the picnic taps for a while I would do 12. 2 extra feet of line will cost $1.

 

[Bobby_M]

Any shop that claims a properly balanced setup is old school would be dead to me. Old school? More like no school. I bet they recommend turning the pressure down to fine tune the pours. One way to test if longer "proper" lines will help is to hold your picnic faucet up high, like over your head, to see if the pour slows down enough to reduce the foaming. Also make sure you're opening the faucet all the way and not try to regulate the flow by half pressing it.

 

[Paradingbull]

also after heating take some needle nose pliers or other tapered tip tool and give the tube end a good reaming before starting it on the fitting. I lost skin off 3 knuckles before discovering that little trick.

 

[NeoBrew]

I had a lot of frustration and tried many things. I finally settled on 6' 3/16" tubing. But that didn't fix it at first!

Temperature of the beer is also critical. Turns out my Perlick taps were too warm and the beer would foam when it hit them. Usually a second glass would come out better. I fixed the problem by moving the fan in my keezer down low and aimed it toward the back of the taps.

 

[stpug]

also after heating take some needle nose pliers or other tapered tip tool and give the tube end a good reaming before starting it on the fitting. I lost skin off 3 knuckles before discovering that little trick.

Ouch! I totally feel that pain. I think I did the same once because it's so familiar.

 

[NaymzJaymz]

Finally, I got the right tubing! Had to drive to a different LHBS, but I now have 12ft of 3/16 ID tubing. The pours I'm getting are acceptable, with about half foam and half beer at about 4psi dispensing pressure. Thank you all. Anyone care to "sum it up"? I've learned a lot from this keg. A picnic set up is just a tube attached to a pressurized canister, so I was pretty naive all along. I'm going to brew and keg this same beer again. It's the best beer I've ever made. Any advice on what to differently? Should I lower the "set it and forget" to a lower psi(stpug)? Should I consider this beer a bit overcarbed? Thank you all.

 

[stpug]

Finally, I got the right tubing! Had to drive to a different LHBS, but I now have 12ft of 3/16 ID tubing. The pours I'm getting are acceptable, with about half foam and half beer at about 4psi dispensing pressure. Thank you all. Anyone care to "sum it up"? I've learned a lot from this keg. A picnic set up is just a tube attached to a pressurized canister, so I was pretty naive all along. I'm going to brew and keg this same beer again. It's the best beer I've ever made. Any advice on what to differently? Should I lower the "set it and forget" to a lower psi(stpug)? Should I consider this beer a bit overcarbed? Thank you all.

Summation:
-Use 10+ feet of proper 3/16" beverage serving line; don't overcarb; and you should have good pours in nearly all situations

What to do differently:
-Use the carbonation chart previously linked to pick a carbonation volumes based on your temp and psi
-Set and forget at the chart's psi based on carbonation you want; you should not have to lower it for serving next time
-Give it about 10-14 days to develop proper carbonation
-With your longer line and non overcarbed beer (I'd consider this one overcarbed), you should not have overly foamy pours

One last point on any tap (picnic, perlick, etc): When pouring your beer you should always open the tap completely (depress the picnic handle completely) otherwise turbulence will be created and foam will pour out.

 

[NaymzJaymz]

Thanks St Pug(and everyone). Earlier in the week, when you first brought up the possibility of overcarbination, it really came out of left field (in my mind). Everyone had talked about line length up to that point. Now I can see what you were talking about. I'll put all your advice, and that of the others, to work. It was pretty naive of me to think I could attach a clear plastic tube to a pressurized SS can and expect magic to flow out the other end! Such is the learn by doing motif. Cheers!