Total Infection

[alx133]

Howdy,
so ill get right to it. Last summer after a good dozen batches something found its way into my brew system. i would guess bacteria; the flavors are a bit sour, dry, battery ish, moldy.
what ever this thing is it had tore through 5 batches. I bleached all the glass and replaced all the plastic. but it persisted, showing itself very obviously after primary fermentation.
A few months ago i got some new equipment so i can do full boil 10 gal batches. again got all new plastic equipment. and of course that mother is still there infecting my batches.

i feel seriously beaten down.

any ideas?
at this point i dont know what is going on.

thnks

 

[mjohnson]

Did you bleach or replace everything plastic in your packaging setup too (bottling or legging). Just checking.

Barring that, how clean is the area where you ferment/package. Could you have a mold problem in your house/garage that is reinfecting each batch? Its a long shot, but just trying to come up with ideas.

 

[Sawdustguy]

You don't give nearly enough information to fathom a guess.

 

[Hoppin_Mad]

Yea, maybe describe your "brew system" in greater detail along with your own personal process.

 

[alx133]

You don't give nearly enough information to fathom a guess.

sorry guy, what do you want here

 

[alx133]

ok, so; 15 gal brew pot. on banjo burner w propane.
put all brew equipment in sanitizer solution early brew days. brewing in a garage now which i have cleaned pretty well. cooling w a coil that i immerse 15 mins before flame out.
i pitch starters which i taste before pitching (pouring off 300 ml excess top portion)
after wort cools i siphon into glass carboy or better bottle.
fermented on a cleaned porch away from light.


i feel like i dont have anything out of a really simple brew process/ set up.

if there are any other specifics you would like to guess please let me know

 

[alx133]

Did you bleach or replace everything plastic in your packaging setup too (bottling or legging). Just checking.

Barring that, how clean is the area where you ferment/package. Could you have a mold problem in your house/garage that is reinfecting each batch? Its a long shot, but just trying to come up with ideas.

the mold thing is also the only thing i can think of at this point.

going to try and brew a batch off the grounds (again w new plastic) to see if that is whats going on

 

[alx133]

oh and yeah, all bottling was replaced (but infection had already taken hold when bottling time came round)

 

[Sawdustguy]

I really don't see anything that jumps out and says it could be the culprit. I think it is a good move to do an off site batch if possible as it will half split the problem. Best of luck, you have my interest peaked so let us know how it goes.

 

[passedpawn]

You should be making Flanders Reds. Like they say, "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em".

 

[Mathematics]

I have had the same problem...repeated batches getting infected, even after I cleaned up my sanitation practices & replaced plastics. I did a batch at my gf's place (off-site as recommended above), and low & behold it turned out fine.

The apartment I was living in at the time had very poor ventilation, and during the winter especially with the moisture on the windows, there would be orange mold constantly popping up on the window sills. I've since moved, but I am pretty certain that mold was the culprit.

 

[lschiavo]

I see you siphon from your kettle. No ball valve? I think I had a problem with that one time. Now I take apart my valve/diptube to clean. Your siphon and tubing have all been replaced?

 

[alx133]

defiitely replaced everything many times now.
off site sounds like the best plan to me.

if only this was good sour, that would be a blessing.
thanks all, ill let you know how it goes when it goes somewhere else

 

[alx133]

should i be using something more aggressive than a strong bleach soak/cleaning for the glass carboys?

 

[Boodlemania]

I would agree with everyone else that has chimed in. Nothing really jumps out. The only additional advice I can offer is maybe use something besides bleach as a sanitizer. I would recommend trying StarSan to see if that makes a difference. Remember, use fresh starsan each time, 1oz per 5 gallons of warm water.

The only other option I can think of is to remove the yeast starter process and use dry yeast for a batch to see if the infection is starting in that route.

Best of luck!

 

[theredben]

should i be using something more aggressive than a strong bleach soak/cleaning for the glass carboys?

Describe "stron bleach soak", what ratio?

More importantly, why do you suspect bacterial/wild yeast contamination?

 

[alx133]

strong bleach is about a half gal bleach per 6.5 gal carboy.

my guess about yeast or bacteria is just my best guess due to the flavor profile that comes in the beer after the primary fermentation is done

 

[theredben]

What does the beer look like during primary fermentation/when finished? Can you upload pictures?

It seems that your sanitation procedure is MORE than adequate. There are many other factors (inadequate rinsing of bleach residue being one) that can cause odd flavours to come through. Is it possible to take it to your LHBS and see what they think? Maybe a local Home Brewers club meeting?

 

[CrazedArmadillo]

In regards to the bleach, how old is the bottle you're using? Bleach has a limited shelf life...if the bottle is more than ~4-6 months old, or if it was stored in very warm temperatures, it's probably no longer strong enough to sanitize.

Also, after you sterilize with bleach, are you rinsing with water? If so, is that water sterile, or straight from the sink/hose?

I would recommend switching to StarSan...it's no-rinse and has a long shelf life.

 

[JohnnyO]

Here's a thought: Is it possible it's your water? Water supplies can change, and remain that way if the water treatment center changes its process. Do you use tap water to brew with? Maybe have your water tested. It may be that you have to treat your water.

 

[theredben]

Here's a thought: Is it possible it's your water? Water supplies can change, and remain that way if the water treatment center changes its process. Do you use tap water to brew with? Maybe have your water tested. It may be that you have to treat your water.

These are my thoughts exactly, I am wondering if there is an infection at all.

 

[alx133]

ive tried a number of different water sources for the beers; they all produced tasty beer before this issue.
and if im doing a full volume boil would the water source really matter?

 

[theredben]

If there is an issue with chloramines, boiling will not remove it. Only chlorine is boiled off. If there is no reason to think there is infection it's probably best to start looking elsewhere. Sounds like you have really done your homework regarding sanitation.

 

[JohnnyO]

ive tried a number of different water sources for the beers; they all produced tasty beer before this issue.
and if im doing a full volume boil would the water source really matter?

Okay, that should rule out issues with your water source then. Sorry I can't help. I know how frustrating it can be to trouble-shoot.

 

[Boodlemania]

1/2 gallon of bleach in the fermenter would scare the crap out of me as far as rinsing goes.

As I said earlier, I would go with starsan or another no rinse sanitizer.

 

[pernox]

What is your process for the yeast starter? Maybe the infection is starting there.

 

[pkananen]

Half gallon of bleach? That's a ton. Try a batch with starsan or iodophor.

 

[DeafSmith]

Yeah, try the StarSan and mix it with distilled water, not tap. Don't rinse after the StarSan.

 

[alx133]

fair enough.
but, all this started before i resorted to such a strong bleach solution for sanitizing carboys. i just wanted some clean beer so i tried nuking the **** out of them.

will pick up some star san for the off site brew test

 

[danimalmanimal]

I am very new to home brewing, but thinking outside the box, if it isn't your equipment, maybe it's the product (yeast, hops, malt, etc.)???

 

[erock2112]

Are you milling your grain near where you brew? Lactobacillus hides in grain husks and will definitely cause an infection if it's floating around. I'd even be careful about wearing the same clothes for milling and brewing...

 

[theredben]

Seriously guys, we have not even concluded that it is a infection. This random throwing out of off the cuff ideas is getting really confusing.

 

[stlbeer]

A couple of different thoughts on this.

You mention the problem seems to occur after transfer from primary. Is the transfer to the secondary or to keg/bottle?

Without wanting to ignite the secondary or not debate, if transfer is to secondary have you considered not doing that and leaving it as is (in primary) until fermentation is complete? It will remove a vector where something like an infection could occur. Then bottle or keg as normal. Tasting along the way will help determine where/when the problem occurs.

Second - if you are kegging and are using faucets, have you taken them off the shank and taken them apart? It is possible for them to be infected and then for that infection to spread to the kegs. Also not a bad idea to remove the shanks and all adapters and clean them all really well too. I've used a hot PBW soak, then Star San to sanitize.

Hope this helps.

 

[alx133]

well, what im saying is that the 'infection' (or just terrible flavor) happens during primary fermentation. i notice it when i go to rack the beer for secondary or kegging.
and usually dont do either because the beer is not right.

as for the grain milling lacto idea, i know what lacto tastes like and this is not it.

 

[alx133]

Seriously guys, we have not even concluded that it is a infection. This random throwing out of off the cuff ideas is getting really confusing.

its true; there is no way to really know right now. my LHBS doesnt have many experienced brewers and none of my brewing friends have been able to say whats what.

ive tried a lot of variables here. different water, different yeasts (wyeast is my go to), draconian sanitary procedures.

all thats left is an off site brew and star san.

floating mold or yeast or bacteria are really the only explanations that make any kind of sense to me. (eventhough i produced about a dozen clean beers in the same space with a less sanitary procedure)

like i said, once i get an off site brew that will be a good source of info

 

[stlbeer]

Good luck to you! Hope you figure it out soon. Sucks not knowing and none of the attempted fixes not working.

 

[alx133]

ok, so an update is due. ive been thinking way too hard about this for a while, so i scoured some podcasts on cleaning and sanitation to see if i could get any new insights when i found this episode: http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/...Session-03-19-06-Sanitation-w/-Charlie-Talley of the sunday session from 2OO6. now i know the session can be a lot of dicking around but this interview was really engaging and informative. also, charlie talks about how using a bleach and water mixture will most likely be at the wrong ph to be effective as a sanitizer. so i went out and got some pbw and starsan and meticulously followed the suggested ratios. brewed an ipa and im hoping for the best. so far the smell from the carboy is great with no odor of what ever was going on in all of my other beer. ill post some taste evaluations when it gets to that point. maybe another week or so.

 

[mendnwngs]

I loved that podcast, back when I first heard it.. Very informative..

I was going to suggest adding 1/4 cup white vinegar to the bleach / water mix to lower the PH, (as suggested in that podcast) as that will make the bleach a lot more effective at killing bugs, but with the PBW and star-san, you should have good luck too.

I'm trying to nail down a source of bugs myself, ( I think its the counterflow chiller in my case) and Im with you.. It can be aggravating.

Good luck!

 

[jds]

I also had a couple of bad batches in the recent past. In my case, I traced it back to storing my fermenter bucket and no-chill container partially filled with sanitizer.

I think what was happening was that the sanitizer would lose strength until something nasty could get a toehold. I realized this when I opened my no-chill container, and saw what looked like a cotton ball floating in the sanitizer. Whoops.

Since then, I've switched to stainless for no-chill cooling and glass for fermenting, and the problem resolved itself. I also started paying more attention to the dip tubes on my kegs, and I now store equipment dry and upside-down, instead of full of liquid.

 

[pfooti]

Here's hoping you've got whatever was in your system beat.

My suggestion would be to try and control for as much variability as possible. So- brew a batch with US-05 pitched straight into the primary (don't rehydrate, as long as it's a 1.055 brew that should be fine), where you don't secondary the beer. Maybe make a kit beer even, with just extract. You're not really trying to make the best beer with that kind of experiment, just remove all the other stuff like transfers, starters, milling and whatnot from the equation. Then add things back in until you get the infection again.