Toss Slow Yeast Starter?

[Pancoastbrewing]

Ordered a pack of Omega West Coast Ale yeast online back in the summer. It arrived somewhat swollen. Package date was May 2019.

Finally got around to making a starter (1500 ml) on Wednesday night. Used a stir plate. Saw almost no activity until about 24 hours (last night). Now it appears to be fermenting albeit weakly. Only about 1/2” or so of foam around the flask and kinda spotty in the middle. I’ve had much more active starters than this, like krausened up to the stopper.

Should I toss this or attempt to let it finish, chill, decant and make a bigger starter (2 L)? I’m in no rush to brew until maybe next weekend so I have time and I have another pack on order. I’m concerned since the package arrived swollen and it sat for a good 5-6 months. Haven’t had great success getting live and active yeast from Omega, which is a shame since I won a HBC award with one of their yeasts. Leery to buy again.

Thanks!

 

[z-bob]

It's obviously alive, even if weak. I would nurse it back to health and use it (I've done that before with old Wyeast packets), you seem to be almost there already. OTOH, I have trouble throwing away a used Kleenex if it looks like it has one more use in it

 

[Pancoastbrewing]

It's obviously alive, even if weak. I would nurse it back to health and use it (I've done that before with old Wyeast packets), you seem to be almost there already. OTOH, I have trouble throwing away a used Kleenex if it looks like it has one more use in it

Thanks! Would anything like yeast nutrient help? I know the package already contains yeast nutrients but would a pinch of new stuff help? I assume I should definitely make a bigger starter, correct?

 

[z-bob]

Thanks! Would anything like yeast nutrient help? I know the package already contains yeast nutrients but would a pinch of new stuff help? I assume I should definitely make a bigger starter, correct?

I don't see how it could hurt. I'm not an expert on yeast starters; I use them, but you should get advice from someone who really knows. I'm an expert on "Don't throw that away yet!" (it's a problem, you should see my basement)

 

[brewbama]

Well, you’re this far in, might as well see it thru. I vote let it finish and have another go so it can redeem itself.

It’ll make great beer and give you a story to tell your grandkids.

 

[Pancoastbrewing]

Well, you’re this far in, might as well see it thru. I vote let it finish and have another go so it can redeem itself.

It’ll make great beer and give you a story to tell your grandkids.

They’ll love the story of “the great half-dead yeast starter of November 2019”

 

[Mer-man]

I say take the time to build it up and select for more flocculant yeast through a few starter iterations.

 

[Pancoastbrewing]

I say take the time to build it up and select for more flocculant yeast through a few starter iterations.

Eh, I’m starting to lean towards dumping it. It just never seemed to go through complete fermentation. I’d hate to risk losing a 5 gallon batch with questionable yeast

 

[IslandLizard]

Eh, I’m starting to lean towards dumping it. It just never seemed to go through complete fermentation. I’d hate to risk losing a 5 gallon batch with questionable yeast

I'm very used to it taking 3-4 days for my starters to turn from medium/dark brown to become light, milky, even thick, which to me signifies a healthy population has grown. I never get enough growth after 24 hours. It sometimes may take a week, especially with older fresh packs of yeast or slurries that have been in the fridge for a year or longer. I revived a few sleeves of White Labs' Lager yeasts that were over 2 years old (always kept in fridge). They yielded good pitchable slurries after 3 steps over 2-3 weeks! The first step took a good week.

If the ongoing starter smells good, yeasty, bready, it's likely fine. Some sulfur may co-exist with certain strains.
After cold crashing, when decanting, taste some of that starter beer you're pouring off. That's my "acid test." If it tastes as I expect, light, low flavor beer, slightly oxidized, some phenols or some esters, nothing putrid or sour, chances are it's A-OK.

 

[Mer-man]

...That's my "acid test." If it tastes as I expect, light, low flavor beer, slightly oxidized, some phenols or some esters, nothing putrid or sour, chances are it's A-OK.

I presume you mean phenols for a POF+ strain? I thought I tasted some phenols in a starter wort for a lager yeast (2278) and dumped it all -- then I pitched "new" packs of Imperial Urkel that were clearly not in good shape, based on how poorly they performed. Anywho -- phenols?

 

[Pancoastbrewing]

I'm very used to it taking 3-4 days for my starters to turn from medium/dark brown to become light, milky, even thick, which to me signifies a healthy population has grown. I never get enough growth after 24 hours. It sometimes may take a week, especially with older fresh packs of yeast or slurries that have been in the fridge for a year or longer. I revived a few sleeves of White Labs' Lager yeasts that were over 2 years old (always kept in fridge). They yielded good pitchable slurries after 3 steps over 2-3 weeks! The first step took a good week.

If the ongoing starter smells good, yeasty, bready, it's likely fine. Some sulfur may co-exist with certain strains.
After cold crashing, when decanting, taste some of that starter beer you're pouring off. That's my "acid test." If it tastes as I expect, light, low flavor beer, slightly oxidized, some phenols or some esters, nothing putrid or sour, chances are it's A-OK.

Interesting. What do you do to have your starters move so slowly? Colder temps? Everything I’ve read about starters is that they should be started around 70-75F for optimal yeast growth. Never been truly comfortable doing that but I also don’t feel good going off script too much. I usually always see strong activity within 12-18 hours after pitching.

 

[Pancoastbrewing]

Well, I ended up dumping the questionable yeast starter because a new pack of wyeast American Ale II arrived the other day.

So I went through the same process for a 1.5 L starter Wednesday and ill be ^*^^ed but this one appears to be questionable as well. I can see tons of bubbles flying up through the starter but there is zero and I mean zero krausen whatsoever about 40 hours after pitching. WTF is going on here? I’ve had starters overflow my erlenmeyer flask after a day and a half and this is now two in a row that have done this.

The only possibility I can think of is that I’m using DME that is probably one year old but it’s been in zip locked storage. Could that be it? My DME to water ratio is correct, I’m using a stir plate, my temps are correct and this yeast literally just arrived. I don’t get it.

 

[z-bob]

Why do you expect a big krausen? Especially when you have a stirbar spinning in there, knocking it down? (My last starter had no foam either and I was worried about it too, but when I pitched it in the bucket of wort it exploded after just a few hours)

 

[wepeeler]

I'm very used to it taking 3-4 days for my starters to turn from medium/dark brown to become light, milky, even thick, which to me signifies a healthy population has grown. I never get enough growth after 24 hours. It sometimes may take a week, especially with older fresh packs of yeast or slurries that have been in the fridge for a year or longer. I revived a few sleeves of White Labs' Lager yeasts that were over 2 years old (always kept in fridge). They yielded good pitchable slurries after 3 steps over 2-3 weeks! The first step took a good week.

If the ongoing starter smells good, yeasty, bready, it's likely fine. Some sulfur may co-exist with certain strains.
After cold crashing, when decanting, taste some of that starter beer you're pouring off. That's my "acid test." If it tastes as I expect, light, low flavor beer, slightly oxidized, some phenols or some esters, nothing putrid or sour, chances are it's A-OK.

Dang. I've never had a starter not finish within 36 hours. Most of mine are done within 24 hours. The last one I made (Imperial Dry Hop) was done within 12 hours. It was unreal. I'm using a stir plate, and usually the temp is above 70.

Well, I ended up dumping the questionable yeast starter because a new pack of wyeast American Ale II arrived the other day.

So I went through the same process for a 1.5 L starter Wednesday and ill be ^*^^ed but this one appears to be questionable as well. I can see tons of bubbles flying up through the starter but there is zero and I mean zero krausen whatsoever about 40 hours after pitching. WTF is going on here? I’ve had starters overflow my erlenmeyer flask after a day and a half and this is now two in a row that have done this.

The only possibility I can think of is that I’m using DME that is probably one year old but it’s been in zip locked storage. Could that be it? My DME to water ratio is correct, I’m using a stir plate, my temps are correct and this yeast literally just arrived. I don’t get it.

I don't always get noticeable krausen with my starters. Sometimes they finish while I'm asleep. Maybe that's what's happening? Does it look thicker and milkier than when you started? Right after the boil and cooling, it should be darker and clearer. After fermentation, it's usually thicker and milky looking.

 

[DVCNick]

I do everything "wrong" with my starters; no specific aeration or nutrients added, and no stir plate, just swish it around once in a while.

Usually I see visible activity in 8-12 hours and let them go about 2 days, at which time I don't think they are "done", but close enough.

Once over the summer, I ordered a couple liquid yeast packs despite the advice on the website. Sure enough, they arrived on my doorstep very warm. Within a couple weeks when I did a starter, it took about 24 hours to start showing activity. I almost chucked it, but then it started going and went as normal.

Sometimes I get a little bit of krausen if I let it sit still long enough. Never had it even come close to overflowing the flask until I come by and swirl it up; at that point if it has been sitting for a while, got to be careful or it will overflow.

As mentioned.. I'd go primarily off the color change to decide whether it was proceeding well or not.

I've never done a stepped starter and don't see the point, but then again I have no understanding of why an under pitch is bad either, so I'm not the guy to ask about that. I always do about 1.5L starter wort, pitch anything from a fresh new pack of US-05 to the dregs of couple commercial beers, and it has always appeared to finish the same and ferment a 5gal batch the same to me.

 

[Pancoastbrewing]

Why do you expect a big krausen? Especially when you have a stirbar spinning in there, knocking it down? (My last starter had no foam either and I was worried about it too, but when I pitched it in the bucket of wort it exploded after just a few hours)

I don’t continuously use the stir plate, partly because I want to see krausen so in my head I know it’s working. I’ll usually run the stir plate for the first 8-12 hours and then only occasionally after.

 

[Pancoastbrewing]

Dang. I've never had a starter not finish within 36 hours. Most of mine are done within 24 hours. The last one I made (Imperial Dry Hop) was done within 12 hours. It was unreal. I'm using a stir plate, and usually the temp is above 70.



I don't always get noticeable krausen with my starters. Sometimes they finish while I'm asleep. Maybe that's what's happening? Does it look thicker and milkier than when you started? Right after the boil and cooling, it should be darker and clearer. After fermentation, it's usually thicker and milky looking.

It was bubbling inside pretty strongly yesterday and still is today which makes me surprised about the absence of krausen. I know it’s fermenting, it is cloudy, I would just feel a lot better if it wasn’t so thin on top

 

[IslandLizard]

It was bubbling inside pretty strongly yesterday and still is today which makes me surprised about the absence of krausen. I know it’s fermenting, it is cloudy, I would just feel a lot better if it wasn’t so thin on top

Are you using Fermcap or some other foam suppressor?

 

[Pancoastbrewing]

Are you using Fermcap or some other foam suppressor?

Nope, just DME, water and yeast.

 

[Pancoastbrewing]

Here’s what it looks like. Almost 48 hours out. I would think it was dead if I didn’t see the bubbles moving.

 

[wepeeler]

Here’s what it looks like. Almost 48 hours out. I would think it was dead if I didn’t see the bubbles moving.

Is there a layer of yeast on the bottom? If it's not being stirred, the yeast should be dropped out.

 

[IslandLizard]

Here’s what it looks like. Almost 48 hours out. I would think it was dead if I didn’t see the bubbles moving.

It looks way too clear for an active starter.
Is it not stirring?
Has it been like that since you pitched the yeast?
Is there a large amount of yeast visible on the bottom?

Are you using a gas permeable cover on that flask?
Temp range?

 

[Pancoastbrewing]

Is there a layer of yeast on the bottom? If it's not being stirred, the yeast should be dropped out.

There is a layer of yeast on the bottom. As I said I occasionally turn the stil plate on but I don’t run it continuously.

 

[Pancoastbrewing]

It looks way too clear for an active starter.
Is it not stirring?
Has it been like that since you pitched the yeast?
Is there a large amount of yeast visible on the bottom?

Are you using a gas permeable cover on that flask?
Temp range?

Not currently being stirred
It wasn’t quite as clear yesterday
There is a good layer of yeast on the bottom
I’m using a foam stopper
Temp is 70

 

[IslandLizard]

Not currently being stirred
It wasn’t quite as clear yesterday
There is a good layer of yeast on the bottom
I’m using a foam stopper
Temp is 70

Perhaps it's already done?
Don't forget, you're already starting out with 150 billion cells in a fresh pack.

The height of the layer should give you some indication if there was growth, and estimate how much slurry you've got.

 

[Pancoastbrewing]

Perhaps it's already done?
Don't forget, you're already starting out with 150 billion cells in a fresh pack.

The height of the layer should give you some indication if there was growth, and estimate how much slurry you've got.

It looks to be about 0.5”-0.75”

 

[wepeeler]

There is a layer of yeast on the bottom. As I said I occasionally turn the stil plate on but I don’t run it continuously.

You're good to go then. It's done fermenting out. Smell it, and see if it's a familiar starter smell.

 

[IslandLizard]

It looks to be about 0.5”-0.75”

That could be 2-4 oz of thick, just pourable yeast slurry. I'd say it's done!

 

[Pancoastbrewing]

You're good to go then. It's done fermenting out. Smell it, and see if it's a familiar starter smell.

Smells normal to me. Actually smells pretty good haha

 

[Pancoastbrewing]

That could be 2-4 oz of thick, just pourable yeast slurry. I'd say it's done!

Planning on brewing tomorrow and I hate dumping 1.5 L starters into the brew but I guess it’s too late to cold crash and decant, eh?

 

[wepeeler]

Planning on brewing tomorrow and I hate dumping 1.5 L starters into the brew but I guess it’s too late to cold crash and decant, eh?

Nah man. Crash it now. Decant what you feel comfortable with, and pitch the rest!

 

[Pancoastbrewing]

Nah man. Crash it now. Decant what you feel comfortable with, and pitch the rest!

Thanks for your help!

 

[IslandLizard]

Nah man. Crash it now. Decant what you feel comfortable with, and pitch the rest!

Exactly my thoughts. The starter beer on top looks pretty clear already. Crash as long as possible. Take out of fridge an hour before pitching (not brewing), decant, then let the slurry come to room temps during that hour.

 

[Pancoastbrewing]

Exactly my thoughts. The starter beer on top looks pretty clear already. Crash as long as possible. Take out of fridge an hour before pitching (not brewing), decant, then let the slurry come to room temps during that hour.

Have you ever seen a starter not even have a tiny krausen? It sounds like you continuously use the stir plate so maybe you haven’t.

 

[IslandLizard]

Have you ever seen a starter not even have a tiny krausen? It sounds like you continuously use the stir plate so maybe you haven’t.

I did stir (I shake now) continuously. I hear what you're saying, there's usually some sort of foam developing. But if the yeast multiplies fast, you may miss it.
From what I understand, fermentation of a continuously aerated or oxygenated starter is a side effect. The yeast needs to ferment some for her metabolism, the oxygen supply helps her build sterols for healthy budding, which is what we're after.

Before I had a stir plate, too many times I lost half the yeast culture to the countertop, and always overnight. It almost became a game of cat and mouse. Switching to a gallon wine jug really helped keeping the starters inside. There's only a genuine need for a (flat bottomed) flask when using a stir plate.

 

[Pancoastbrewing]

I did stir (I shake now) continuously. I hear what you're saying, there's usually some sort of foam developing. But if the yeast multiplies fast, you may miss it.
From what I understand, fermentation of a continuously aerated or oxygenated starter is a side effect. The yeast needs to ferment some for her metabolism, the oxygen supply helps her build sterols for healthy budding, which is what we're after.

Before I had a stir plate, too many times I lost half the yeast culture to the countertop, and always overnight. It almost became a game of cat and mouse. Switching to a gallon wine jug really helped keeping the starters inside. There's only a genuine need for a (flat bottomed) flask when using a stir plate.

That’s exactly why I don’t continuously use the stir plate. I have a 2 L flask and a 1.5 L starter definitely has the potential to get too worked up and literally push the foam stopper almost out of the flask. I do also use a gallon jug for bigger starters, and then of course shaking is the preferred method.

 

[IslandLizard]

That’s exactly why I don’t continuously use the stir plate. I have a 2 L flask and a 1.5 L starter definitely has the potential to get too worked up and literally push the foam stopper almost out of the flask. I do also use a gallon jug for bigger starters, and then of course shaking is the preferred method.

I add a drop of Fermcap to my starter wort. No more boil overs or excessive foaming while boiling for a few minutes.
Seems to reduce excessive foaming in the starter vessel too.
IMO, continuous stirring prevents foam overs. Stop the stirrer and it's no different than a jar on the countertop => explosive blow off.

I have 2 orbital lab shakers. I can place 4 2-liter flasks and/or 1/2 gallon pickle jars, or 2 1-gallon jugs, on each.

 

[Pancoastbrewing]

I add a drop of Fermcap to my starter wort. No more boil overs or excessive foaming while boiling for a few minutes.
Seems to reduce excessive foaming in the starter vessel too.
IMO, continuous stirring prevents foam overs. Stop the stirrer and it's no different than a jar on the countertop => explosive blow off.

I have 2 orbital lab shakers. I can place 4 2-liter flasks and/or 1/2 gallon pickle jars, or 2 1-gallon jugs, on each.

Wow you’ve really invested! My Maelstrom stir plate seems to be on the fritz. Kind of a bummer for $150

 

[z-bob]

I glued a washer to the center of a variable-speed computer fan and stuck two little neodymium magnets to it for a stirplate. The only problem is, the stirbar sometimes spins out. I think that's because my flasks have slightly domed bottoms. I bought a beaker, thinking it might be flatter, but haven't tested it yet.

 

[Pancoastbrewing]

I glued a washer to the center of a variable-speed computer fan and stuck two little neodymium magnets to it for a stirplate. The only problem is, the stirbar sometimes spins out. I think that's because my flasks have slightly domed bottoms. I bought a beaker, thinking it might be flatter, but haven't tested it yet.

I’m always amazed at the ingenuity of homebrewers. I mess up enough in the brewing process, I wouldn’t attempt something like that!