To Trub or Not to Trub?!?

[TEWNCfarms]

So as mentioned on an episode of sour hour I believe with crooked stave, he mentions how in a lot of sour breweries especially European ones they ferment and age in the same barrel, so the beer is sitting on the trub it’s whole life until bottling.

What do you all think? Rack to a secondary leaving the trub out? Or leaving it in primary with the trub and/or pouring the trub and all into a secondary? I feel like I’ll be leaving a lot of good stuff in the trub behind. Especially if I add bacteria and Brett to intial/primary ferment.

I’m not talking about kettle souring at all, I won’t ever be doing that.

 

[TEWNCfarms]

Anyone?

 

[RPh_Guy]

I leave on the trub

 

[TEWNCfarms]

I leave on the trub

Thanks. What do you think about me pouring trub and all into a secondary? Especially when I start aging sours

 

[RPh_Guy]

More food for the microbes.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Hold on a second, why are you using secondary?

 

[TEWNCfarms]

Hold on a second, why are you using secondary?

Haha well I thought I was supposed to use a secondary for aging? Even the kits that are coming say to move to a secondary if you can after 2 weeks, and those are cleans. And I was going to use the speidels for primary so no blow off is needed and then age in fermonsters. ?

 

[dawn_kiebawls]

If you use your speidel to ferment with the brett/microbes it will forever be contaminated and dedicated to wild yeast beers, otherwise you will get infections in a clean beer. If you're alright with that then I would (in this rare case) recommend racking to secondary in a glass carboy. Plastic fermentors allow too much oxygen ingress for long term aging. leave as little headspace as possible. Secondary has become mostly 'obsolete' as it is another chance for oxidation and infection and there are very few reasons to do it (bulk aging a sour being one of the few).

When you say 'dump' I hope you mean 'gently siphon'. Again, the name of the game is as little oxygen exposure as possible. So, minimize splashing/shaking and if possible flush the carboy out with co2.

Hope this helps, cheers!

 

[RPh_Guy]

As you delve into this hobby you'll often find there are lots of different ways to do things.

The current prevailing consensus is that the risk of oxidation and contamination outweigh any benefit from transfer in most cases. Kits suggesting secondary are outdated.

Plastic fermentors allow too much oxygen ingress for long term aging.

Brettanomyces is microaerophilic, meaning it likes oxygen in small amounts. PET plastic or oak vessels are ideal for this purpose.
People do successfully use HDPE vessels for aging.
Glass & stainless arguably let in too little oxygen for proper Brett beer aging without creative means to gently increase oxygen exposure.

 

[TEWNCfarms]

If you use your speidel to ferment with the brett/microbes it will forever be contaminated and dedicated to wild yeast beers, otherwise you will get infections in a clean beer. If you're alright with that then I would (in this rare case) recommend racking to secondary in a glass carboy. Plastic fermentors allow too much oxygen ingress for long term aging. leave as little headspace as possible. Secondary has become mostly 'obsolete' as it is another chance for oxidation and infection and there are very few reasons to do it (bulk aging a sour being one of the few).

When you say 'dump' I hope you mean 'gently siphon'. Again, the name of the game is as little oxygen exposure as possible. So, minimize splashing/shaking and if possible flush the carboy out with co2.

Hope this helps, cheers!

Yeah that’s what I was wondering about the oxygen. I thought some oxygen was good for some beers?

 

[TEWNCfarms]

As you delve into this hobby you'll often find there are lots of different ways to do things.

The current prevailing consensus is that the risk of oxidation and contamination outweigh any benefit from transfer in most cases. Kits suggesting secondary are outdated.


Brettanomyces is microaerophilic, meaning it likes oxygen in small amounts. PET plastic or oak vessels are ideal for this purpose.
People do successfully use HDPE vessels for aging.
Glass & stainless arguably let in too little oxygen for proper Brett beer aging without creative means to gently increase oxygen exposure.

Ahh I gotcha. Well then one fermenter it is. Do some of the sour beers Kräusen hard? I’m wondering if I should use all speidels for cleans and the fermonsters for only sours.?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Krausen depends on the yeast, temperature, wort composition, pitching rate, and other factors. You can always use a blow-off tube; it's really not that bad.

My Christmas ale:

You see it got close to the top with ~5.7 gal in a 6 gal fermonster. I played it safe.

 

[TEWNCfarms]

Krausen depends on the yeast, temperature, wort composition, pitching rate, and other factors. You can always use a blow-off tube; it's really not that bad.

My Christmas ale:
View attachment 600062

You see it got close to the top with ~5.7 gal in a 6 gal fermonster. I played it safe.

Nice! What are all those things connected to it? And you know of any articles explaining how to figure if I’ll have heavy Kräusen?

 

[isomerization]

If you’re worried about krausen, start with a blowoff and then move to a traditional airlock after the sacc ferment ends. Keep it all in the same vessel.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I'm using an Inkbird and Fermwrap to keep it 63-64°F.
The temperature probe is insulated with a sponge.

When in doubt, let it blow out.(tm)

 

[sweetcell]

The current prevailing consensus is that the risk of oxidation and contamination outweigh any benefit from transfer in most cases. Kits suggesting secondary are outdated.

i'm 100% with you for clean beers. but when it comes to sour and funk, there is plenty of support for racking to secondary for long-term aging after primary activity has died down. keeping it in primary leaves too much headspace and too much exposed surface. also has the benefit of keeping brett and bugs out of your primary FV, which is important for some folks.

Yeah that’s what I was wondering about the oxygen. I thought some oxygen was good for some beers?

it is, but a much much more common problem with long-aged beers is overexposure to oxygen. you hear a lot more complaints about beer being ruined with vinegar or nail polish off-flavors, vs. an aged sour that doesn't have any character.

air-locks are not air-tight. i still get pellicles in my filled-to-the-top secondaries so some O2 is getting in there. i had a link that showed how leaky airlocks are, and are in fact pretty close to how much O2 barrels let in... lemme see if i can dig that up.

 

[sweetcell]

What do you all think? Rack to a secondary leaving the trub out? Or leaving it in primary with the trub and/or pouring the trub and all into a secondary? I feel like I’ll be leaving a lot of good stuff in the trub behind. Especially if I add bacteria and Brett to intial/primary ferment.

answering the original question: i don't go out of my way to bring along trub, but i don't worry if i do. when transferring my funky and sour beers, i'm much more concerned about filling all the way to the top of the secondary to minimize headspace. if i need to suck up trub to fill up the carboy, i'm happy to do it. but if given a choice, i would rather transfer liquid than trub, since one doesn't drink trub so it's just taking up valuable volume

aging on trub will affect the flavor. brett will consume the dying sacch, leading to some flavors that a non-trub'ed beer wouldn't have. i've never compared side-by-side, so i can't tell you what the difference is how how noticeable it is.

there will be plenty of bacteria and brett in the liquid. don't transfer trub just for the brett and LABs.

BTW, you mentioned "pouring the trub and all into a secondary" - was that a figure of speech, or do you actually pour the beer from primary into secondary? i'd recommend getting an auto-siphon and gently racking into secondary. you'll pick up a ton of oxygen if you pour.

 

[RPh_Guy]

there is plenty of support for racking to secondary for long-term aging after primary activity has died down. keeping it in primary leaves too much headspace and too much exposed surface.

Would you mind sharing, please?

Oak vessels clearly make sense to keep topped up.
How about PET & SS vessels with spigots?
Process & equipment matter. If you're opening your vessel to take samples or whatever, it's an entirely different level of oxygen exposure depending on the headspace volume -- but if you never open the vessel, how does the headspace volume play a role?

Airlocks don't "leak" so much as allow diffusion. Oxygen diffuses from high concentration to low concentration: outside air into the airlock liquid, and then into the headspace, and then into the beer. Hopefully the breathable silicone airlocks I use reduce that to some extent (no data exist AFAIK).

It's hard for me to gauge how many Brett beers suffer from too little oxygen vs too much. I see reports of both.
I agree in general though. The best advice I've seen is to try to minimize oxygen as much as possible at first to get a baseline and then adjust as needed.

 

[TEWNCfarms]

Thanks you guys, I appreciate the help.