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To secondary or not to secondary

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oregonboy1995

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Hey everyone, I’m in the middle of my first homebrew and am at a crossroad. I brewed up a simple 5 gallon extract pale ale that has been fermenting for 10 days now. I’m hoping you guys can convince me which road to take.
Should I:

1. Bottle it this weekend
2. Rack into a secondary for another 1-2 weeks
Or
3.(what I’m leaning towards) bottle 3 gallons and then put the remaining 2 gallons into secondary.

I’m leaning towards the third option because I feel like it would be a great learning experience to see how secondary fermentation effects the same base beer. Open to all thoughts!

Thanks everyone!
 
While I totally understand and can appreciate option 3. I would go with option 1 and brew another batch this weekend. Option 2 would would be the least desirable in my mind.
 
Personally if I were you I would secondary it. My first home brew came out really cloudy in just a primary and I have a lot of beer geek friends and even though I know no one really cares I still cared that it was cloudy.
 
If you want to experiment, option 3. If it were me, I would do as petemoss suggested, bottle it and get another one started. I haven't done a secondary in several years and that was adding ingredients. The last time I did a secondary without adding something was in 2011
 
That's the beauty of making it yourself, you can do whatever you want to it.

I have 3 gal of a single malt single hop ale that I hopped heavy at flameout. I'm going to peel off a gallon today to dry hop and compare the two.
 
Option 4 - Leave it in primary until it clears and then bottle it. A secondary in this situation is just more opportunity to oxidize or introduce infection.

This was my initial thought too, but it never hurts to learn something for yourself as opposed to taking others advice.

Here's what I'd do if learning was my goal:

Bottle some now.
Put some in a secondary that allows you to fill it with very little head space.
Put some in a secondary that has a ton of head space.

The problem with brewing a second batch is it's a second batch, not the same batch. Also remember that this is your first batch of beer and lets face it, you'll get better with each batch from now on, so even though you may not notice a difference now doesn't mean you won't notice a difference (for better or worse) down the road when your process/beer gets "cleaner".

Personally I don't secondary because I'm paranoid of oxygen touching my beer and don't see any of the claimed benefits actually having a positive impact for me. Can't say I've done a side by side to qualify any of that though.
 
How about a slight variation of number 3.
Since most no longer use a secondary and you want to bottle. Compare the benefits of longer primary verses bottling now. See if there is a difference in the end result to you.

Bottle a portion now and just leave the rest in the fermenter without moving it to a secondary vessel.

Beer to drink in a couple weeks and another longer fermented batch on the way without risked oxygenation from moving it to secondary.
 
It would be better to skip secondary stuff because the risk of infection and oxidation out weigh the benefits because there are none. The things that are supposed to occur during second fermentation aren't going to occur.
I'm not sure if wort from malt syrup requires second fermentation. There should be a spec sheet for the syrup, the various sugars that are in the syrup will be listed on the sheet. A spec sheet comes with each sack of malt, I believe that one would come with syrup, maybe it's the label.
When syrup contains maltose the recipe will indicate that second fermentation is required.
If the recipe calls for adding priming sugar for carbonation there is no need for second fermentation because the beer lacks maltose and maltotriose responsible for second fermentation.
When a large percentage of glucose is mixed with sweet tasting, non-fermenting sugar, only single fermentation is required. If the syrup contains glucose, sweet sugar, maltose and maltotriose, second fermentation is required and the beer will not need to be primed with sugar or CO2 injection for carbonation.
Syrup is the bi-product of three tests performed on malt. During testing, three bags/cars are tested, each bag/car is tested at a single temperature, 145, 153 and 155F. The three flavors of malt water are blended and reduced to syrup. Depending how much sugar water was added from the rest at 145F to make the syrup will depend on whether second fermentation is required or not. Depending on the level of modification (Kolbach Number), malt can be lacking in Beta amylase or it can be very weak and conversion will not complete. Syrup doesn't necessarily need to have maltose in it because the malt that made the syrup can lack enzymes and for that reason several types of enzymes are produced.
When the malt that made the syrup was tested, the temperature was not high enough to allow enough amylo-pectin to enter into solution before Alpha denatured, dextrinization did not fully occur. After malt is tested amylo-pectin is removed and used for producing maltodextrin. Amylo-pectin is responsible for body and mouthfeel. The starch contains A and B limit dextrin which are tasteless, non fermenting types of sugar. The starch makes up the tips of the kernel and it is heat resistant.
Follow along.
Yeast loves glucose a lot because it is simple sugar and the job that Alpha has is to release glucose and sweet, non-fermenting, sugar from simple starch, amylose, which is the starch kinda in the fatter part of the kernel. Alpha liquefies the starch chain turning it into two chains, one chain contains sweet stuff, the other chain is glucose, which yeast loves during primary fermentation. When the two actions occur they are called liquefaction and saccharification. The actions occur during the rests at 153 and 155F. The rest at 155F produces more sweet stuff and less glucose than the 153F rest produces. Glucose is one of the three building blocks of life, pretty important job amylase has, considering saliva is loaded with it.
OK, so now we know what type of sugar yeast really loves, where it comes from, and how it gets there.
Now, let's take a look at what occurs during the rest at 145F and how it ties into fermentation. The rest at 145F is called the Beta rest. During the Beta rest glucose is being converted into complex types of sugar called maltose and maltotriose. It's a molecular thing. During the rest Alpha is active, too, releasing glucose that Beta is turning into complex sugar.
During primary fermentation yeast rips through glucose cranking out alcohol, but yeast doesn't do anything with maltose because it hasn't come to love it. It takes a little while for yeast to love maltose. So, after primary fermentation is complete the beer is transferred off the goop ready for second fermentation.
Since, yeast only deals with simple sugar and maltose is a di-saccharide, yeast can not turn it into alcohol has easy as it turns simple sugar into alcohol, but the Great Magnet knew that someday man would figure out how to make ale and lager, so, he/she/alien, equipped yeast with an enzyme. During second fermentation another conversion occurs when yeast absorbs maltose through the cell wall and the enzyme converts maltose back into glucose which is expelled back through the cell wall. The glucose is yeast fuel and during second fermentation gravity reduces closer to expected FG. During the aging cycle the same thing happens with maltotriose and the beer naturally carbonates and expected FG is hit.
 
I agree there is no reason to introduce risk of a move to secondary for the sole sake of conditioning, but if you are going to dry hop a portion, there is a benefit and moving it to a secondary is how it's done. Under optimal circumstances you want a closed, pressurized system to transfer, but tons of home brewers, myself included, don't have that setup and do it successfully anyway.

Use proper sanitation, add the hops, transfer the beer, keep the fill hose below the surface, fill until there is little to no headspace. The risk of infection is low. The hops are a natural preservative, that's how IPA's got their name. The oxidation risk is minimal especially if it is going to be drunk in 2-6 weeks.

I've had beers that I wish I would have taken the time to dry hop. I've always been rewarded when I have dry hopped. Taking a portion of your beer and experimenting with it is how you learn. Understand the risks, take precautions and you will be rewarded. Worse case scenario is a gallon or two of beer you don't like. Learn why, adjust and make more.

Style is also very important. If this were a high gravity monster or a delicate lager that is going to age a long time, I would take no risks in exposing it to oxygen. But a PA or IPA that is intended to be drunk young is a good candidate for dry hopping.
 
You can also dry hop in primary and still skip the unnecessary step of transferring to secondary.

For me it is not the fear of oxidizing my beer, it is laziness. Why do something with the beer that has very little benefit?
 
What do you hope to achieve with the secondary fermentation? Even if you are super careful you will still be losing a small amount of freshness and aroma due to oxygen exposure.

With pale ales there is no upside to using a secondary unless you need to free up your primary fermentor for another batch.

I'd vote for option #1. Bottle the brew if it's ready on the weekend and then brew something else.
 
Hey everyone, I’m in the middle of my first homebrew and am at a crossroad. I brewed up a simple 5 gallon extract pale ale that has been fermenting for 10 days now. I’m hoping you guys can convince me which road to take.
Should I:

1. Bottle it this weekend
2. Rack into a secondary for another 1-2 weeks
Or
3.(what I’m leaning towards) bottle 3 gallons and then put the remaining 2 gallons into secondary.

I’m leaning towards the third option because I feel like it would be a great learning experience to see how secondary fermentation effects the same base beer. Open to all thoughts!

Thanks everyone!
That would be a good experiment.
http://brulosophy.com/2014/08/12/primary-only-vs-transfer-to-secondary-exbeeriment-results/
This link is similar to your possible experiment.
Good luck
 
Unless you are adding a sugar source like fruit or a souring agent, no additional fermentation will take place. Or some long term flavor addition like 2 months on French Oak. Otherwise, you really don't gain anything to a secondary vessel with beer. The limited time and small volumes are not a concern for gainng off flavors from yeast, so secondary storage is an extra step that does not lend value to your end product.
 
"With pale ales there is no upside to using a secondary unless you need to free up your primary fermentor for another batch."
Absolutely, 100% correct, considering home made pale ale. Second fermentation is required when mash is rested at 140 to 145F. The rest is omitted in most home brew all grain recipes. Second fermentation involves, conversion, complex sugar and the way that yeast deals with complex sugar during secondary fermentation and during the natural carbonation and aging cycle. The problem is, when secondary fermentation isn't needed, the types of sugar that produce ale aren't there and that means that the beer isn't pale ale, just something pale that the recipe calls ale.

Syrup does not contain the types of sugar that are involved with second fermentation, it's syrup, not malted barley. To make second fermentation work with syrup and to make brewing a little more interesting, purchase two to three pounds of Weyermann floor malt or malt of similar quality (under modified, low protein, malt) and some sauer malz, crushed together, and mash in with RO water at 1-1.25qt./1lb and rest the mash in the 140 to 145F range for about 45 minutes. Sparge/rinse the mash with enough hot RO water around 165F to make up a final volume of 2 to 3 qts. If a bag is used to hold the mash do not squeeze it out. To help with consistency take a gravity reading.
Boil the maltose water and skim off hot break as it forms. When the hot break stops forming or drastically reduces, mix the liquid with the syrup water and boil it all together. Skim off hot break, add bittering hops after hot break reduces and boil for about an hour. Use the volume of maltose water in place of some of the brewing water. Maltodextrin should be added because during second fermentation the beer will thin.
To reduce the risk of oxidation and infection plastic buckets shouldn't be used. A glass carboy with a two port cap will work fine. A port for CO2 and a port for a blow off tube or a racking cane. CO2 is best for transfers and the receiver can be purged of air as beer is added.

Dry hopping. The pH of beer is low, ale pH is lower than lager pH. When dry hops are added to low pH beer, staling compounds are released due to chemical changes caused by low pH and the beer rapidly, stales. Beta causes problems, but the Beta, Alpha percentage of the finest hops are within a decimal point.
Dry hopping involves placing hops in a pressure vessel with water at 213-214F, pH adjusted to 8-9. The hops are rested for 10 minutes without boiling because the vessel is pressurized. The hop water is flash cooled, pH is reduced and it's added in at blending, bottling, kegging.
Purchase a Randall, instead of dry hopping.
I'm not sure if hops, singularly, defines or names IPA or if the preservative characteristic is important to the degree that homebrewer's take it. During the time period IPA was at the least triple decocted. The method produces a very stabile and balanced wort with the ability to naturally carbonate and age without deteriorating. The wort is void of nutrients that Gram-N bacteria thrive on which reduces the risk of spoilage. Due to the wort being very clean, less hops were used, hop character "sticks" better to clean wort. The beer was aged in oak barrels lined with a thick layer of brewers pitch, pitch acts like a balloon when the beer expands and contracts. The beer is not in contact with oak, except maybe a little bit at the plugs. The plugs are pitched except at the sealing point. Once in awhile a keg leaks, loses pressure, and due to temperature changes the beer expands and contracts and infection sets in.
Depending on the time frame ships were steam propelled and mechanical refrigeration was being used in breweries and onboard ships. During the same time frame there were freighters, no doubt, using old, leaking, foul smelling, sail boats, transporting IPA to India taking six months to arrive. Writing stories about that kind of stuff makes more interesting content.
 
That’s what I was thinkin! I thought about putting 2 gallons into 1 gallon fermenters and then dry hopping one of them.

One of the things I enjoyed most about high school science (especially physics and chemistry) were the labs. Lectures? Not so much ;)

Please let us know how the experiments turn out!
 
"With pale ales there is no upside to using a secondary unless you need to free up your primary fermentor for another batch."
Absolutely, 100% correct, considering home made pale ale. Second fermentation is required when mash is rested at 140 to 145F. The rest is omitted in most home brew all grain recipes. Second fermentation involves, conversion, complex sugar and the way that yeast deals with complex sugar during secondary fermentation and during the natural carbonation and aging cycle. The problem is, when secondary fermentation isn't needed, the types of sugar that produce ale aren't there and that means that the beer isn't pale ale, just something pale that the recipe calls ale.

Syrup does not contain the types of sugar that are involved with second fermentation, it's syrup, not malted barley. To make second fermentation work with syrup and to make brewing a little more interesting, purchase two to three pounds of Weyermann floor malt or malt of similar quality (under modified, low protein, malt) and some sauer malz, crushed together, and mash in with RO water at 1-1.25qt./1lb and rest the mash in the 140 to 145F range for about 45 minutes. Sparge/rinse the mash with enough hot RO water around 165F to make up a final volume of 2 to 3 qts. If a bag is used to hold the mash do not squeeze it out. To help with consistency take a gravity reading.
Boil the maltose water and skim off hot break as it forms. When the hot break stops forming or drastically reduces, mix the liquid with the syrup water and boil it all together. Skim off hot break, add bittering hops after hot break reduces and boil for about an hour. Use the volume of maltose water in place of some of the brewing water. Maltodextrin should be added because during second fermentation the beer will thin.
To reduce the risk of oxidation and infection plastic buckets shouldn't be used. A glass carboy with a two port cap will work fine. A port for CO2 and a port for a blow off tube or a racking cane. CO2 is best for transfers and the receiver can be purged of air as beer is added.

Dry hopping. The pH of beer is low, ale pH is lower than lager pH. When dry hops are added to low pH beer, staling compounds are released due to chemical changes caused by low pH and the beer rapidly, stales. Beta causes problems, but the Beta, Alpha percentage of the finest hops are within a decimal point.
Dry hopping involves placing hops in a pressure vessel with water at 213-214F, pH adjusted to 8-9. The hops are rested for 10 minutes without boiling because the vessel is pressurized. The hop water is flash cooled, pH is reduced and it's added in at blending, bottling, kegging.
Purchase a Randall, instead of dry hopping.
I'm not sure if hops, singularly, defines or names IPA or if the preservative characteristic is important to the degree that homebrewer's take it. During the time period IPA was at the least triple decocted. The method produces a very stabile and balanced wort with the ability to naturally carbonate and age without deteriorating. The wort is void of nutrients that Gram-N bacteria thrive on which reduces the risk of spoilage. Due to the wort being very clean, less hops were used, hop character "sticks" better to clean wort. The beer was aged in oak barrels lined with a thick layer of brewers pitch, pitch acts like a balloon when the beer expands and contracts. The beer is not in contact with oak, except maybe a little bit at the plugs. The plugs are pitched except at the sealing point. Once in awhile a keg leaks, loses pressure, and due to temperature changes the beer expands and contracts and infection sets in.
Depending on the time frame ships were steam propelled and mechanical refrigeration was being used in breweries and onboard ships. During the same time frame there were freighters, no doubt, using old, leaking, foul smelling, sail boats, transporting IPA to India taking six months to arrive. Writing stories about that kind of stuff makes more interesting content.

All interesting stuff and some new things I haven’t heard of before.

You mentioned the types of sugars that make it an ale. Ale/lager is defined by the yeast no? I haven’t heard of sugar being a deciding factor. If it’s not an ale then what is it?

Is that really how they “dry hoped” back in the day? Sounds like an interesting technique but wouldn’t at least some of your alpha acids isomerize at that temp?

I think people get mixed up with the names when it comes to “secondary”. When people say to skip secondary they say to skip putting it in a secondary container, not necessarily to skip the “secondary fermentation” if one was to take place. Just leave it in the primary container for the full time.

I’d love to try an authentic IPA brewed the way they did back in the day. Not sure where to even look to find one, everything in America has no doubt evolved to be something very different.
 
The question was: "1. Bottle it this weekend
2. Rack into a secondary for another 1-2 weeks"

I'm confident that the understanding is do all fermenting in a single vessel. Racking to secondary does not add anything in this recipe at this scale.

Regarding "ale:" Discussion is that all beers are ales, but not ale ales are pale/ipa. Pale colored ale is not automatically a"pale ale."
 
Don't bother with secondary. If you want to learn by trying everything yourself then why bother asking the forum the question.

If you want to increase exposure to oxygen then go ahead and secondary.
 
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