Tips for an old guy trying to learn guitar
- Thread starter Ridire
- Start date
Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:
nutty_gnome
Well-Known Member
I'm curious: How much should this service cost? How would I know it was done properly? And how do I find a luthier or who is worth the price?
OP
OP
That might be a little overly ambitious
Brew on
I think you are wrong...
...because you said "a little".
If you can do that after playing for 20 years, I'm impressed.
I can't tell. Some people use their thumb to fret the E, but it's not something I've ever tried. I do mute the E with my thumb fairly often, depending on the chord fingering.
And FWIW the standard guitar only has 6 strings, the Low (fat) string is E and the High (Thin) string is also E (for standard tuning). 7 String guitars are popular for some metal players, but I haven't seen them in use by most anyone else.
This thread makes me want to build a cigar box guitar. I really need to finish my other projects first though.
And FWIW the standard guitar only has 6 strings, the Low (fat) string is E and the High (Thin) string is also E (for standard tuning). 7 String guitars are popular for some metal players, but I haven't seen them in use by most anyone else.
This thread makes me want to build a cigar box guitar. I really need to finish my other projects first though.
OP
OP
I meant 6 and 5, not 7 and 6...stupid brain.
EDIT: and that is about the 5th time I've caught myself referencing the 7th string. I have no idea why I keep doing that. My son even corrected me yesterday when I did it.
Maybe you are thinking of one of those double stringed guitars. Or double necked?
The way I remember the strings is by their open notes; EBGDAE (high to low), like saying, "Eb, g'day". 7 strings have a low B string. Don't see them much anymore though. I still have my amps, guitars & music stashed. I surprised myself how rusty I am since the 80's....
OP
OP
No, I'm just stupid.
I didn't forget the sarcasm tags. I just couldn't find them.
And, I'll probably never be able to do that.
Brew on
OP
OP
The boy's practice for the week is the opening riff from Day Tripper. It looks so easy...but I just spent 30 minutes doing it, and the amount of work I have to put in became very obvious...
Deja vu all over again. That's another riff I learned, but can't seem to remember how to play it now. All my old music books are still packed from my cross country move. Now, I'll have to relearn that as well.
Brew on
I have no idea what a luthier charges these days for a proper and complete setup. I do my own work and have for more than 20 years. I don't advertise doing guitar setups or repair because I'm simply not interested in doing that sort of thing as a business.
I do know that a quality setup and tweaking can be a simple task or a huge job depending on what needs done. If all that needs done is setting intonation and a little tweaking on the truss rod, then it's pretty simple. Sometimes the frets need leveled and dressed in addition to the basic stuff. Those jobs can be a lot of work and very time consuming.
You know it is done right when the guitar plays like butter. It should seem like it takes little to no effort to fret the notes and there should be no string buzz anywhere on the neck. That is what a proper setup feels like.
btw, it isn't true that only expensive guitars play like expensive guitars. I still have my first guitar from when I was 14. It was a super cheap and generic Fender copy made by a no-name company call "State of the Art". It plays better than most of the $2000+ guitars hanging in any guitar shop. It does because I have tweaked and worked on it for years. Really, any guitar that isn't simply broken can be made to play like butter. The reason the expensive ones all seem nicer in the guitar store is because they received more attention before they ever got hung on the wall. Usually that attention is given at the factory. Cheap guitars get CNC'd and tossed together and that is about it.
The only guitar I've every played that felt like that belonged to a guy I knew in high school. It was a 12 string Rickenbacker, and had a lighter action than any 6 string I've felt. I loved the feel of that ax. Mildly amusing side story is a girl I went out with for a little while dumped me for this guy. Musicians get all the girls it seems.
Brew on
estricklin
Well-Known Member
The secret to learning to play guitar, is to LOVE it. Us guitarists, have an addiction, a sickness, we can't walk by one without picking it up. The fact that your 41 doesn't mean anything to that guitar; yes it takes years to become a really great player but better late than never.
Make your practices as efficient as possible. When your starting out, your always learning something so no need to worry with efficiency, but as time goes by we hit plateaus, and a person can waste a lot of time playing the guitar, and not learning anything.
Learn some musical theory along the way, the major scale, circle of fifths, pentatonic scales, memorize the notes on the guitar and all the chords in each key.
You can learn any song you want as a beginner, just make it one that you really like.
As far as equipment, don't obsess about it. You don't even know what you like yet, only what you think you need or like. If you have a cheaper acoustic, take it to a guitar shop and have an action job done, cost you about 20-30 bucks usually, have it set up for 11s, that will make learning bar chords somewhat easier.
Your not special or different, we all struggle with this starting out. I don't know why people talk about calluses all the time, the fact is you'll never get any. The tips of your fingers will go numb and the skin will become tougher, it will crack and peel as you play instead of hurting. This takes time though, so be patient. How long? Depends on how much you practice, but probably 3-6 months to no longer feel pain on a regular basis when playing. Even those of us who have been playing for years and years, still have pain on the tips of our fingers when we play a lot, like 4 or 5 hours a day for 2 weeks solid.
Elixer nano web strings are slightly easier on the fingers, but don't sound quite as good in my opinion. A lighter gauge is never a bad idea either.
Don't be afraid to break out the guitar anyway, I take mine everywhere I go almost, and I love to see others playing too, even if they aren't that good yet. 99% of people are amazed you can do it at all!
Oh and, for goodness sakes get a tuner...a Snark! Nothing worse than an out of tune guitar. If either of you need any help at all, or have any questions don't hesitate to ask. I did not have much help starting out.
OP
OP
The set up work cost question posed above: my kid's instructor (who played for a very well known rock band back in the '80s...but after that band's heyday) said he would look over my guitar and would charge nothing if the setup was not needed, $25 if adjustments need to be made. Pretty reasonable to ensure it is easy to play, in my opinion.
For you experienced guys, think way back to your beginnings. I know the answer will be "practice", and I get that, but I'm looking for precise methods of practice here. I found that I could get my fret hand to form the chords but, and this is a big but, I had a tremendous amount of difficulty holding the chord in such a way that I was not inadvertently muting adjacent strings by slightly touching them. Is there a specific thing I should be practicing to fix that, or just keep trying to adjust the fingers until it comes naturally? I put the tabs in front of me for House of the Rising Sun last night and thought, "I'll just get to the point where I can play the Am chord and then slowly change to the C chord". Instead, I spend the entire time on the Am chord holding it and strumming each string to see it was in any way muted.
For you experienced guys, think way back to your beginnings. I know the answer will be "practice", and I get that, but I'm looking for precise methods of practice here. I found that I could get my fret hand to form the chords but, and this is a big but, I had a tremendous amount of difficulty holding the chord in such a way that I was not inadvertently muting adjacent strings by slightly touching them. Is there a specific thing I should be practicing to fix that, or just keep trying to adjust the fingers until it comes naturally? I put the tabs in front of me for House of the Rising Sun last night and thought, "I'll just get to the point where I can play the Am chord and then slowly change to the C chord". Instead, I spend the entire time on the Am chord holding it and strumming each string to see it was in any way muted.
I had the same problem with my light bulb fingertips. I then thought the neck was too narrow. It's just one of those things you have to fiddle with by & large to get the finger positions right. But at this point, I'd still say that a bit wider fret board would be a tad easier for the beginner to play when fingering chords to play as such or arpeggiating. That is to say, fingering the chord, then playing the notes separately one after the other. Just another way to play solos faster & easier. Like Tipton & Downing in Judas Priest. They can fly through trading solos with arpeggios.
Just anticipating the muting and preparing for it. I tend to mess up the same spots in a song so I get ready when the difficult part comes I try a little harder.
Came across this neat website today and wanted to share. Its acoustic tabs. I am similar age and recognize most of the songs here. Some of the songs say "basic" in the title so I am guessing there might be some easy ones, but there is also some pretty good challenges.
http://www.lickbyneck.com/
Came across this neat website today and wanted to share. Its acoustic tabs. I am similar age and recognize most of the songs here. Some of the songs say "basic" in the title so I am guessing there might be some easy ones, but there is also some pretty good challenges.
http://www.lickbyneck.com/
estricklin
Well-Known Member
Your doing exactly what your supposed to be doing, play each string one by one to make sure it isn't muted and that they all ring out perfectly. Your fingers/hands don't have the dexterity, and more importantly they don't have the muscle memory they need to play those chords effectively. I promise, that if you practice every day, in just a few short months that chord progression will be easy as breathing.
The action job will help, but changing your strings to 11s will help more. Actually it's better to have the action set up for the particular string gauge you intend to play with, as switching to a higher or lower can change the neck tension and thus change the action height. So have the 11s on when you take it in. This might also be a good time to buy a string winder (with a cutter on the end) and some extra strings. Breaking strings is a right of passage!
OP
OP
Your avatar looks an awful lot like the instrument I bought.
I got an Epiphone PR-4 acoustic-electric. I know, not high end, but I think it was a good deal for a novice like me.
estricklin
Well-Known Member
Your avatar looks an awful lot like the instrument I bought.
I got an Epiphone PR-4 acoustic-electric. I know, not high end, but I think it was a good deal for a novice like me.
A fine choice you made! I only wish my first guitar had been an Epi. They do look a lot alike since they are made by the same parent company. My avatar is basically the same as the guitar I play every day, a Gibson Songwriter Deluxe Studio Edition EC. They don't exactly sell my model anymore, as the new ones are not quite as expensive, because mine has an ebony fretboard which added 300-400 to the price tag. I was able to find this baby 3 years old, and gently used. Sadly she will be going to the shop later this month to have a crack repaired and have some action work done.
When I was playing, I liked Fender super bullet 9's for their clear ringing qualities. Was a bit easier on the fingers too. but 11's on up sound good. Seems to me SRV used 14's?
OP
OP
Hmm...how do I know what gauge strings came on the thing from the factory? Is 13 the default?
I've played on .009s for my electric for years. I bought .010s to see if the tone and sustain improve. Problem is I have Floyd Rose actions so I'm holding off until I buy a new pickup for my older Kramer Focus. I only want to set that up ONE TIME! FR tremolos are a PITA to set up when you change string gauges.
Anyway, I think .010s should be good, but .009s might feel easier.
IRRC SRV played with .013s or .014s. I about sht myself when I read about it. He must have had Popeye arms for fingers! LOL! Most guitarists I listened to at that time were running .009s cause they were squirrely and bended easy and you cold fun acrobatics with them, but that's for electric guitars with whammy bars.
Anyway, I think .010s should be good, but .009s might feel easier.
IRRC SRV played with .013s or .014s. I about sht myself when I read about it. He must have had Popeye arms for fingers! LOL! Most guitarists I listened to at that time were running .009s cause they were squirrely and bended easy and you cold fun acrobatics with them, but that's for electric guitars with whammy bars.
I'd guess most factory guitars come with 10s.
estricklin
Well-Known Member
Most factory acoustics come with 12s, and most factory electrics come with 9s or 10s.
On acoustics 11s are considered pretty light, and 10s are really light, (few acoustic players use 10s), 9s (although they make them) are pretty much unheard of on the acoustic.
For a beginner on the acoustic 11s are the way to go. I actually prefer 11s on my acoustic, but that's because I play lead riffs with it and I like to be able to bend strings easier. On the electric, almost all players use 9s. Easy to bend and play. i would say for a beginner on the electric to switch to 10s, so they aren't accidentally bending strings when trying to learn new chords.
SRV did play with some heavy strings at times, but not always. He also played almost exclusively in half step down tuning, which puts less tension on the strings. I have put 14s on the acoustic before to achieve a better sound when strumming, NEVER AGAIN.
Strings are really cheap, so buy several different ones and experiment as you progress in your playing to find what you like personally.
On acoustics 11s are considered pretty light, and 10s are really light, (few acoustic players use 10s), 9s (although they make them) are pretty much unheard of on the acoustic.
For a beginner on the acoustic 11s are the way to go. I actually prefer 11s on my acoustic, but that's because I play lead riffs with it and I like to be able to bend strings easier. On the electric, almost all players use 9s. Easy to bend and play. i would say for a beginner on the electric to switch to 10s, so they aren't accidentally bending strings when trying to learn new chords.
SRV did play with some heavy strings at times, but not always. He also played almost exclusively in half step down tuning, which puts less tension on the strings. I have put 14s on the acoustic before to achieve a better sound when strumming, NEVER AGAIN.
Strings are really cheap, so buy several different ones and experiment as you progress in your playing to find what you like personally.
OP
OP
Stupid question: is it difficult to change the strings? Should I not be playing around with something like that on a brand new guitar when I don't know what the hell I'm doing...or is it like fishing line, where any moron can a fairly decent job of it (although I've seen some pretty goofy strung spinning reels in my day)?
And get one of those string winder things (they're always in a fishbowl looking display at the music shop) and a pair of basic wire cutters that will permanently reside in your case.
EDIT: And the winders have a built-in post puller. Super useful.
EDIT: And the winders have a built-in post puller. Super useful.
estricklin
Well-Known Member
If your playing every day, you'll probably need to change your strings about every 2 weeks, otherwise they get a dull sound and start breaking on ya. So I would say changing strings is a skill any novice should start working on. It isn't difficult, and your not going to screw up anything.
A few tips:
1.Don't wind them backward, make sure they all go in the same direction.
2.On the first turn around let the excess string pass under, on all the others after make sure it goes over. That will keep the strings from slipping so much when you go to tune it back. If you don't understand this, don't worry you'll "get it" one day.
3.Don't pull the string really tight before you start winding, if you do there won't be enough excess to get as many wraps as you need to keep it form slipping. You should be able to slip your fist under the string against the fretboard when you start winding.
You can change your strings one at a time if you want, but there's really no need. Many disagree with this though, do your own research. One good reason to take them all off at once, is so you can clean the fretboard and wipe a little fretboard oil on it. As your guitar gets older, this is also a good time to inspect for cracks and fret wear.
Keep plenty of extras around in case you break some tuning or playing. My favorite string winder is the one that comes with a peg puller built in, and a string cutter.
OP
OP
Thanks for the tips. Spent over an hour practicing today. Got the riff to Day Tripper down...played extremely slow, and I got the Am chord (first step to Rising Sun) down...but not perfect (got the ocassional clunker).
But if an hour of practicing such basic stuff can fly by that fast, I'll probably be a complete addict once it actually starts sounding like music.
But if an hour of practicing such basic stuff can fly by that fast, I'll probably be a complete addict once it actually starts sounding like music.
I got sperzel tuners for my Strat, the bastardized Frankenstein. A guy in Cleveland used to make them in his garage at that time. You pull the string down, then tighten the knob on the back of the tuner peg & stretch the strings as you adjust them individually. Trim off the access & you're done. Wish I'd have gotten them for all my guitars. Quicker & easier.
OP
OP
Advice about some advice that I just read.
I am just learning the very basic chords and have so little dexterity in my left hand that it is a struggle. I expected this and know practice will fix this...eventually.
But I just read someone suggest that I should be learning the chord formations up on higher frets. The idea is that if I use the 7th or 8th fret as if it were the 1st fret, I will have an easier time forming the chords because my arm is not stretched out as much. Then you gradually work your way up the arm until you are able to form the chords up in the open position.
Thoughts?
I am just learning the very basic chords and have so little dexterity in my left hand that it is a struggle. I expected this and know practice will fix this...eventually.
But I just read someone suggest that I should be learning the chord formations up on higher frets. The idea is that if I use the 7th or 8th fret as if it were the 1st fret, I will have an easier time forming the chords because my arm is not stretched out as much. Then you gradually work your way up the arm until you are able to form the chords up in the open position.
Thoughts?
Personally I wouldn't worry about that. The important thing is to practice changing chords.
However, I still think that as you learn to change chords, try learning the names of them, why they are called that, and why they are related (Key signature and chord progression.)
You will notice that playing the same chords in different fingers, as well as higher up on the neck, will change the TONE of the chord. You may desire to change your choice of fingering to make a song easier to play or to get a tone that you prefer.
You might consider adding a note by fingering a fret while holding a chord. This can be a fun way to get a chord change and start a riff. Or you can finger a chord and slide your hand up or down a fret or two. This takes a little finger strength to do without losing your fingering or blowing the sound.
OP
OP
Changing chords? I can't form the damn chords at this point. I'm crawling and you're suggesting I sprint...
I have only spent 3 real sessions practicing as of now, so it is not like I'm super frustrated by lack of progress. I just want to avoid he potential for becoming super frustrated by making any phase of this more efficient that can be made more efficient.
Usually when you start you will pick a song with like 3 chords and practice changing between them. This is what I mean. When you are tired of that, maybe try holding the fingers for a chord and using one of your free fingers, press down on an additional fret and see how it sounds.
You may not notice a difference in your playing as you progress, but if you could hear how you sounded a week back and compare you will notice a big difference. It might take weeks to get a good sounding chord consistently at this point, but as you gain experience you will find adding new chords is fairly simple once you get your finger strength a calluses built up.
You may not notice a difference in your playing as you progress, but if you could hear how you sounded a week back and compare you will notice a big difference. It might take weeks to get a good sounding chord consistently at this point, but as you gain experience you will find adding new chords is fairly simple once you get your finger strength a calluses built up.
estricklin
Well-Known Member
For now, let's say there are 2 kinds of chords you should be concerned with, open chords, and bar chords. Open chords take advantage of open strings, and thus they are named so. Some chords cannot be played open, such as B major or B minor, but most can. As you move down the neck and voice chords differently, your index finger will need to act as the nut (that's the piece that the strings run through at the top of the neck), and "bar" the strings down while your other 3 fingers make the chord shape. I'm not going to lie to you, bar chords are very difficult to learn, and they are essential to even being a novice guitar player. I would not worry about learning them just yet, give yourself a few months of learning open chords (the ones up at the first few frets), before you tackle bar chords. WHEN you start learning bar chords, it CAN be easier for some people to practice them on the 7-9 frets because of the way their arm is extended, and because the frets are a little closer together, but a lot of people find it to be of little or no help. Although I don't believe you should practice them at all right now, don't wait too long to start learning them either, as i said, a few months. When you decide to start practicing them I can give you a little more advice on that.
Just keep practicing those chord shapes, and slowly start practicing changing chords. As mentioned above, your going to be surprised at how fast you progress.
I like to think of learning to play guitar as climbing a mountain in reverse. When you first begin to learn everything is a struggle. Learning to play those first chords and developing the finger dexterity in your left hand to switch between them seems like the hardest thing in the world. Persistence in practicing will eventually make this task easier in time. And there isn't really any shortcut to getting there. You simply have to invest the time and do it over and over for what will seem like an eternity. This is like standing at the edge of a towering cliff and beginning to climb. It's hard, you can't see the top, but you must keep climbing if you are to ever see it.
Eventually the perfectly vertical cliff will develop a grade. It will still be steep, very steep, but the climbing will become slightly easier. The further up this mountain you get the less the grade becomes. Soon you aren't grabbing at cracks and slowly pulling yourself up a few inches at a time. Soon you will be balancing on your knees an moving up at a faster pace. In time the grade reduces to something you can stand up and walk on. And, with years of effort, you will get to the point where you can run forward and then you realize that this mountains only peak is the point you decide to stop moving forward. In truth, this mountain has no peak.
In other words, stick with it. The hardest part of learning is when you first start. It does get easier with time. Learning to play my instrument was one of the most sound decisions I ever made. Now I play for pure enjoyment since I've retired from the music scene. I'm enjoying playing now more than ever before. There is no better feeling than sitting down to your instrument and having the freedom to play anything you want.
You will get there my friend. Simply persevere through this most challenging point of learning. Practice is boring, painful, and frustrating. But don't give up, music is a precious gift and it'll be worth the effort you are putting into in the end.
Eventually the perfectly vertical cliff will develop a grade. It will still be steep, very steep, but the climbing will become slightly easier. The further up this mountain you get the less the grade becomes. Soon you aren't grabbing at cracks and slowly pulling yourself up a few inches at a time. Soon you will be balancing on your knees an moving up at a faster pace. In time the grade reduces to something you can stand up and walk on. And, with years of effort, you will get to the point where you can run forward and then you realize that this mountains only peak is the point you decide to stop moving forward. In truth, this mountain has no peak.
In other words, stick with it. The hardest part of learning is when you first start. It does get easier with time. Learning to play my instrument was one of the most sound decisions I ever made. Now I play for pure enjoyment since I've retired from the music scene. I'm enjoying playing now more than ever before. There is no better feeling than sitting down to your instrument and having the freedom to play anything you want.
You will get there my friend. Simply persevere through this most challenging point of learning. Practice is boring, painful, and frustrating. But don't give up, music is a precious gift and it'll be worth the effort you are putting into in the end.
I realize I'm a little late to this party but I have to throw in my story. I met a lady 4.5 years ago at the ripe young age of 53. She asked if I played the guitar because her dream guy played a guitar. I didn't but in order to impress her went out and bought a nice guitar and started trying to learn. I just couldn't do it, I had NO idea what I was doing, even tried all of those online video lessons. One day I checked out the local college for adult continuing learning classes and found one. It met once a week for 8 weeks and was taught by a guy that has won multiple national awards. By Christmas of 2010 I had it down and was playing for my now wife
So I guess what I'm saying is you're never to old, you just have to stick with it. If you need to, go find a class or maybe some friend or co-worker that plays. Maybe trade them some homebrews for lessons. I do know that if I could do it anyone can!!!
So I guess what I'm saying is you're never to old, you just have to stick with it. If you need to, go find a class or maybe some friend or co-worker that plays. Maybe trade them some homebrews for lessons. I do know that if I could do it anyone can!!!
OP
OP
I took everyone's advice and decided to play the chords the way they are supposed to be played when I practiced last night. But I decided to something else...analyze everything I was doing that did not involve my fret hand to see if I am contributing to my own problem with weird mechanics. So, I decided the guitar is too low, so I put a small box under my right foot. I decided that I am angling the guitar so as to be able to see the frets and strings, causing my wrist to have to bend further than it has to, so I pulled that sucker right in to my body and held it with the fret board at a 90 degree angle to the floor, etc.
These things made a world of difference. The D chord seemed impossible to me on Wednesday when I was first introduced to it. I pretty much nailed it now. Amazing what posture and proper mechanics can do to take tension out of your fingers while trying to hold the chords.
EDIT: I'm also considering taking a short lesson once a week where my boy goes. That way someone who knows what they are doing can nit-pick these little things for me. Justinguitar.com is great, but Justin can't look at what I'm doing and say, "hey, *******, you need hold the guitar differently and your problems will go away". A face to face instructor can do that, and maybe shave a lot of time off the learning process.
These things made a world of difference. The D chord seemed impossible to me on Wednesday when I was first introduced to it. I pretty much nailed it now. Amazing what posture and proper mechanics can do to take tension out of your fingers while trying to hold the chords.
EDIT: I'm also considering taking a short lesson once a week where my boy goes. That way someone who knows what they are doing can nit-pick these little things for me. Justinguitar.com is great, but Justin can't look at what I'm doing and say, "hey, *******, you need hold the guitar differently and your problems will go away". A face to face instructor can do that, and maybe shave a lot of time off the learning process.
GrogNerd
mean old man
great tip I learned years after picking up the guitar: when you change strings, once the new set is on, STRETCH the ever-effing effing eff out of them. I mean like grab each one at the 12th fret and pull up on it, away from the guitar like you're pulling a drawstring on a longbow. you should be able to pull it maybe 6 inches off the fretboard. tune it up and stretch it again. keep stretching and tuning until it stays in tune even after stretching.
