This is probably going to start a riot but...

[user 144271]

I do think people go crazy over the sanitation. A common sense approach is probably all that is needed. People will take a swig off a soda bottle leave all kinds of germs on it, leave the bottle on the counter then drink it the next day without any fear of getting sick.
That is just one example of thousands.
I clean and sanitize my gear quite thoroughly but I don't lose sleep over it either.

 

[japroto]

Exactly, almost every other source, including most scientists, says sanitization, not sterilization because that is NOT what we are doing, is important.
He may well do that, there are books where people are honestly arguing about the existence of unicorns as well, doesn't make them correct.

All that being said, if you like the method Katz espouses, go ahead and follow his directions. He's not exactly preaching a f-it-all approach. Even he appears to be saying clean the gunk off first. So, he has at least a small understanding that there are things he needs to get rid of on the surface of his vessel before he brews with it. It's your beer, enjoy it, but if someone asks me if sanitization is an important part of brewing, I'm going to tell them yes.

Did you read the original post? The very first line was... "So let me begin by saying that I think proper sanitation and sterilization is a very important part of producing consistent brews. " I did enjoy the unicorn line though

 

[Revvy]

ROTFL!
Based off of your description of Katz you seem like a biggot,

And actually, you sound to me like a troll. So I guess we're even.

I'm probably the furthest from a bigot on here, I'm an extremely liberal minister from an extremely liberal denomination, one of the first in the country to ordain women and gays. I have studied and worked with Native American Shamans, Budhist Monks, Pagans, Druids. Sat on interfaith groups with muslim and jewish clerics in the wake of 9-11. I moderated an online discussion on a porn site for a number of years on the topic of sex and spirtuality. I've co-taught human sexuality to medical students with a gay therapist where we led a workshop called "he said, he said" where we had a frank, open dialogue about our sex lives showing how we were similar in more ways than not in the bedroom except in who our chosen sex partners were.

So if that's your definition of a bigot I'm proud to be one.

I was merely referencing the fact that I would hardly count him as a reliable "expert" on brewing science and sanitization. Especially since you and he are referencing something that NONE of us do, which is steralize.

 

[Shooter]

Did you read the original post? The very first line was... "So let me begin by saying that I think proper sanitation and sterilization is a very important part of producing consistent brews. " I did enjoy the unicorn line though

Yes, I did. It had me questioning why you started this thread in the first place.

I'm also not clear if, now three pages into this, you've figured out that most of us are NOT sterilizing anything. We generally don't have the capability and/or time to take that step, which is often overkill anyway. As cooldood notes, many people do go a little psycho over sanitization, again not, I repeat, NOT, sterilization. If that was your point...agreed, but I lose you after that.

Are we rioting yet?!?!?

[Lucky Machete is Crying for BLOOD!!!!!]

EDIT: Four, four pages into this blood bath!!!! Also, NOT read the original post?!!? iaproto, I was the FIRST to respond...no respect...absolutely none...[Mutters to Self, Strokes Machete]

 

[user 144271]

Revvy

Since your so all inclusive

Does your church ordain trolls too?


jk

 

[Shooter]

And actually, you sound to me like a troll. So I guess we're even.

I'm probably the furthest from a bigot on here, I'm an extremely liberal minister from an extremely liberal denomination, one of the first in the country to ordain women and gays. I have studied and worked with Native American Shamans, Budhist Monks, Pagans, Druids. Sat on interfaith groups with muslim and jewish clerics in the wake of 9-11. I moderated an online discussion on a porn site for a number of years on the topic of sex and spirtuality. I've co-taught human sexuality to medical students with a gay therapist where we led a workshop called "he said, he said" where we had a frank, open dialogue about our sex lives showing how we were similar in more ways than not in the bedroom except in who our chosen sex partners were.

So if that's your definition of a bigot I'm proud to be one.

I was merely referencing the fact that I would hardly count him as a reliable "expert" on brewing science and sanitization. Especially since you and he are referencing something that NONE of us do, which is steralize.

Revvy, I'm a bit of a diehard atheist myself, but even I'm liking THIS church!!!!

 

[StMarcos]

But Katz's book is NOT a homebrewing book...

I too would recommend that people follow a standard sanitation protocol for brewing beer, especially if the packaged beer will be stored at room T and one plans on repitching. I wouldn't get all hot and bothered if they decided to try it without though. Nor would I imply that a 'Radical Faerie' is, by nature of their political and sexual orientation, not a good candidate for discussing fermentation of any type of product.

 

[japroto]

And actually, you sound to me like a troll. So I guess we're even.

I'm probably the furthest from a bigot on here, I'm an extremely liberal minister from an extremely liberal denomination, one of the first in the country to ordain women and gays. I have studied and worked with Native American Shamans, Budhist Monks, Pagans, Druids. Sat on interfaith groups with muslim and jewish clerics in the wake of 9-11. I moderated an online discussion on a porn site for a number of years on the topic of sex and spirtuality. I've co-taught human sexuality to medical students with a gay therapist where we led a workshop called "he said, he said" where we had a frank, open dialogue about our sex lives showing how we were similar in more ways than not in the bedroom except in who our chosen sex partners were.

So if that's your definition of a bigot I'm proud to be one.

I was merely referencing the fact that I would hardly count him as a reliable "expert" on brewing science and sanitization. Especially since you and he are referencing something that NONE of us do, which is steralize.

According to Charlie Sheen we are all trolls, embrace it. I think you truly missed the spirit and intent of this post, and you are getting "Rev"ed up over something trivial, please reread your post because you are definetly quick to judge and make broad sweeping statements that some may find offensive. Furthermore, Katz was an EXAMPLE of real world application and success. Next time I post on this site I'll be sure to include at least 3 scholarly references in MLA format.

 

[Shooter]

Next time I post on this site I'll be sure to include at least 3 scholarly references in MLA format.

Now we're talking!!!!

However, of note, I wouldn't consider citing Mr. Sheen in most instances.



Finally, a matter of clarification, is this going to be one of those Molotov cocktail throwing riots or one of those grab a new flat screen TV while stickin’ it to the man riots?!?!

 

[Revvy]

It does sound like you just want to pick a fight with folks. And it seems to me that we all agree with you, even though we're laughing at you, that sterilization isn't important.

The only one seeming to be "reved" up is you.

 

[Revvy]

Now we're talking!!!!

However, of note, I wouldn't consider citing Mr. Sheen in most instances.



Finally, a matter of clarification, is this going to be one of those Molotov cocktail throwing riots or one of those grab a new flat screen TV while stickin’ it to the man riots?!?!

I prefer a "Quiet Riot" Myself.

 

[japroto]

I prefer a "Quiet Riot" Myself.

LOL! I was going to post the same quiet riot response!

 

[Shooter]

Bang MY head indeed!!!!

 

[StMarcos]

Harold McGee also has a very broad perspective. His book is fantastic as well, but I wouldn't call him an expert on most of the specific food categories he discusses.

Katz is pitching knowledge about thousands of years of fermentation practice, and about how most of the more obscure products are still fermented in the same fashion. I've made loads of kraut/kimchi, and there's no way I'd ever consider 'sanitizing' the vegetables and pitching a pure lacto culture. If he's pitching a lifestyle, it's that you can make lots of interesting fermented products yourself without lots of fuss.

Healing Beers also a fantastic book. Is it a problem that he doesn't practice 'true homebrewing' (whatever that is)? I would say that paganism is an established religion. Lots of interesting ingredient descriptions. I have been inspired to substitute/supplement hops after reading the book. Do you think that the only other allowed ingredients are coriander/orange peel and vanilla for it to be 'true' home brew? I recommend giving more than a cursory look at amazon previews.

I'm pretty strict with sanitation when I make any beers that have FGs designed to be much above 0. I do know some people that have never used any sanitizing agent, and from my tasting, never produced an infected batch.

 

[passedpawn]

According to Charlie Sheen we are all trolls, embrace it. I think you truly missed the spirit and intent of this post, and you are getting "Rev"ed up over something trivial, please reread your post because you are definetly quick to judge and make broad sweeping statements that some may find offensive. Furthermore, Katz was an EXAMPLE of real world application and success. Next time I post on this site I'll be sure to include at least 3 scholarly references in MLA format.

Please, stick to your topic. If Revvy or anyone else bothers you, feel free to ignore them or hit the report button and I'll take care of it.

Please everyone, keep it light and meaningful here. This forum does not require experience of any kind to post here. Further, we are a knowledge base of mostly anecdotal information; no references are required. I know you were kidding, but I want everyone to know that.

I really can't understand why this thread is going off the rails. But I will close it quickly if you all can't avoid the interpersonal sparring.

 

[Revvy]

And by the way, the

lives in a rural, off-the-grid Radical Faerie community in Tennessee.

comment is cut and pasted right off his bio, AND call me naive but since he wrote it as "Faerie" as opposed to "Fairy" I took it to mean that he lives in a full time pagan hippy LARPING community living 24/7 like it was the Shire or something. I personally don't care who or what a person sleeps with, but I draw the line at dressing like Bilbo Baggins, and not bathing all the time.

Many (BUT NOT ALL) of the renfest/sca types I've come across who play around with fermentation, usually meads or simple wines, tend to do a lot of what we would somewhat frown upon for our own hobby, such as using bread yeast and boiling for sanitization.....They don't necessarily approach it with the same attention to detail and understanding that we have.

That's why I was saying that it may be all well and good for fermenting foods, and some beverages, but how he may do it for his stuff, might not be the best for the first time brewers with his first batch of "normal" beer. Nor would he be the best "expert" to be relying on for sanitization information.

 

[japroto]

So getting back on track... what sanitation methods are others using? I use bleach, starsan or iodine depending on what is on hand.

 

[Shooter]

I really can't understand why this thread is going off the rails.

Really?!?!? Have you never experienced this sort of thing on HBT before?!?!

Back on topic:

...and I STILL think sanitation, not sterilization mind you (still not sure we're completely clear on that difference), is important.

 

[Shooter]

So getting back on track... what sanitation methods are others using? I use bleach, starsan or iodine depending on what is on hand.

I use StarSan. It's what I have. So, it's what I use.

 

[Revvy]

Healing Beers also a fantastic book. Is it a problem that he doesn't practice 'true homebrewing' (whatever that is)? I would say that paganism is an established religion. Lots of interesting ingredient descriptions. I have been inspired to substitute/supplement hops after reading the book. Do you think that the only other allowed ingredients are coriander/orange peel and vanilla for it to be 'true' home brew? I recommend giving more than a cursory look at amazon previews.

What I was getting at, was that we HAVE had people coming in and quoting a lot of the author's opinions from the book like it was both brewing and historical fact. Without taking it in the context it was written. There's nothing wrong with the book at all, as I'm sure there's nothing wrong with Katz's book for what it is, and as someone just getting into lactic fermentation and such, I'm interested in it.

The DANGER we have seen is that, (And that's why I was curious how long the op was brewing) is that we've have new brewers who might think that is how to do the process of "traditional homebrewing" that most people starting out do on here....It's sort of like with music, you kinda should need to know the basics, before you start improvising...Or in brewing you should know the role hops or sanitization plays before you start playing with milk thistle, or skipping basic sanitization practice.

It needs to be understood in context.

 

[Revvy]

So getting back on track... what sanitation methods are others using? I use bleach, starsan or iodine depending on what is on hand.

I use stasan and iodophor. I don't like using bleach except in the most dire situations because Chloramines and Chlorophenols are tricky creatures and the right combination of plastics, clorinated water, and chlorine can in a perfect storm can some times cause them. So I try not to have too much chlorine bleach around.

It's funny since I started doing charcuterie following Ruhlman's book this year he talks about sanitization with bleach, and I still use starsan in my kitchen for stuff.

 

[Shooter]

Or in brewing you should know the role hops or sanitization plays before you start playing with milk thistle, or skipping basic sanitization practice.

Or why brewing with blood, human ashes, placenta or tobacco, may not be the "best" ideas.

People are often creative...sometimes a little too creative.

 

[Yooper]

Open any homebrew book and there will be an entire chapter dedicated to proper sanitation/sterilization. Heck there is even a forum section devoted to it on this website

I can guarantee you that we do NOT have a "sterilization" forum on our site! It's sanitation, and not sterilization. That's a very important distinction. Sterilization is a whole different ballgame than sanitation, as I was trying to point out earlier.

You want your surgeon and scalpel sterile for sure. But your food dishes can be sanitary. That sounds nit-picky maybe to some, but it is a world of difference in practice as well as in the number of microbes surviving.

So getting back on track... what sanitation methods are others using? I use bleach, starsan or iodine depending on what is on hand.

I use star-san mostly, but I have have been a winemaker for 20+ years so I also use some sulfites (potassium metabisulfite) at times as a no-rinse sanitizer. I also use Iodophor occasionally (but it stains so I don't use it all that much) and even some old "One Step" (which technically is not a sanitizer, but a cleanser that sanitizes).

 

[Shooter]

I can guarantee you that we do NOT have a "sterilization" forum on our site!

That being said, I cannot guarantee that buried, somewhere within the debate forum most likely, is an obscure and somewhat misguided sterilization thread. It, however, has very little to do with beer.

 

[user 144271]

According to Charlie Sheen we are all trolls, embrace it. I think you truly missed the spirit and intent of this post, and you are getting "Rev"ed up over something trivial, please reread your post because you are definetly quick to judge and make broad sweeping statements that some may find offensive. Furthermore, Katz was an EXAMPLE of real world application and success. Next time I post on this site I'll be sure to include at least 3 scholarly references in MLA format.

Leave the
Mississippi
Liberation
Association
out of this

We all now they don't believe in Sterilization

or
sanitation
or even soap for that matter

 

[Revvy]

That being said, I cannot guarantee that buried, somewhere within the debate forum most likely, is an obscure and somewhat misguided sterilization thread. It, however, has very little to do with beer.

Lol.....

One thing that some folks might not realize, and that's why I originally went to katz's bio to make sure- Is that in England the term Sterilization is what brewers use for for what we mean by Sanitization. I've noticed on occasion we get some of them on here asking questions about it, and we're always quick to chide them about it, but they don't make the same specific distinction that we do.

 

[Pilgarlic]

I'm a big fan and admirer of Sandor Katz, and have enjoyed many of the ferments he's introduced me to. But his attitudes toward sanitation (and related matters) are decidedly on the laissez faire end of the scale, and, at times, he seems almost to relish contaminations in many of his ferments, wearing his willingness to embrace what others might find disgusting as a badge of honor. Love his books, as I take him with a grain of salt.

 

[user 144271]

Good point and I work for an international food company and just assumed that is what he meant.
There is a lot of truth to it as well. If you took environmental samples throughout your house you would start living in a bubble.

I have posted in other threads how I have used ice IN the wort to cool it down (extract kits) with great success and yet most people think that is a cardinal sin (even in Rev's church). just trying to keep it light hearted

If I did a thousand batches that way with zero infections 95% of the people on here would say I just got lucky.

 

[Revvy]

Good point and I work for an international food company and just assumed that is what he meant.
There is a lot of truth to it as well. If you took environmental samples throughout your house you would start living in a bubble.

I have posted in other threads how I have used ice IN the wort to cool it down (extract kits) with great success and yet most people think that is a cardinal sin (even in Rev's church). just trying to keep it light hearted

If I did a thousand batches that way with zero infections 95% of the people on here would say I just got lucky.

Actually both Yooper and I have said there's nothing wrong with using ice in your fermenter to cool AS LONG AS you're not using commercial ice from the typical ice dispenser at the local gas station or quickie mart, where the bags are often ripped or have drain holes in them and I've seen candy wrappers, cig butts and god nose what else in the bottom of them (For vintage base ball tourneys where we live at a historical village for an entire weekend with no referigeration I have on occassion bought out and entire places supply and emptied the cooler out to the bottom, and was surprised at the crap down in there.)

Making your own ice is preferable if you take basic sanitization precautions.

 

[Thunder_Chicken]

In the end all we're trying to do is beat the bad microbes to the punch by "infecting" our wort with a massive quantity of cells from a particular yeast strain that will crowd out everything else, eat up everything, and leave an environment less conducive to anything else growing well (or at all). Like Nathan Bedford Forrest's rule of action, you win by "getting there first with the most".