Keep us updated on your venture into BIAB, your previous NEIPA thread was very entertaining.
Thinking of BIAB brewing
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Keep us updated on your venture into BIAB, your previous NEIPA thread was very entertaining.
wilserbrewer
BIAB Expert Tailor
Sorry double post
wilserbrewer
BIAB Expert Tailor
Ok I'm curious, have you actually had extremely unsuitable results with your untreated water resulting in bad tasting beer?
What is extremely unsuitable, the water report, the taste of the beer, or both?
The water is hard and mineralized. Because of that--along the lines of the reason Stouts developed in England--the water is really only suitable for very dark beers.
The water report isn't unsuitable--it is what it is. The water, on the other hand, is not so great, unless I want to brew Stouts--and I don't like stouts.. Further, the old "if it tastes good it'll make good beer" is a saying that makes me cringe. If it's got a lot of chlorine in it, is that still true?
When I first started I consulted a local brewer here (20 years brewing) about the water. He confirmed what I just said, i.e., it's too darned hard for anything but the dark beers. And I don't particularly care for dark beers, so if I'd tried to brew with it using a normal grain bill (meaning light grains), I'd never have gotten the PH down to where it needs to be.
Here's my water report; what do you think?
Cartman98
Well-Known Member
I've been brewing partial extract for almost 10 years and am only moving to BIAB now while I get my AG system going. I just brewed my first BIAB a week ago and it is a lot less stress than I originally thought. I hit my target OG using a few tips I picked up, all while converting a AG recipe on the fly.
1. Make sure the crush is fine, I had my brew store run the grain through the crusher twice, where they would normally run a AG batch through once (it seems you need a finer crush than a normal AG system).
2. I extended the mash time (@153) to 80 minutes instead of 60 minutes.
3. If it's not included in the normal recipe, add a mash-out rest at 170 for 10 minutes before you start your boil.
Now, I've no idea if the beer will turn out, but everything is going swimmingly at this point.
1. Make sure the crush is fine, I had my brew store run the grain through the crusher twice, where they would normally run a AG batch through once (it seems you need a finer crush than a normal AG system).
2. I extended the mash time (@153) to 80 minutes instead of 60 minutes.
3. If it's not included in the normal recipe, add a mash-out rest at 170 for 10 minutes before you start your boil.
Now, I've no idea if the beer will turn out, but everything is going swimmingly at this point.
Cartman98
Well-Known Member
Also, don't stress about the water profile at this point. You will make drinkable beer unless you live in Zimbabwe or Detroit.
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Not really needed for BIAB... The purpose of the mashout is to denature the amylase enzymes and "lock in" the mash profile over the 40-60 minutes of fly sparging.
With BIAB, you should be firing your kettle as soon as you pull your bag... You'll be up through the denaturing temp and on to a boil in about the same time it would take (or quicker) to raise your mash temp.
It doesn't hurt anything to mashout (I'll often do my dunk sparge in a 180+F 2nd kettle, for instance) but it's not really needed.
1. A finer crush isn't needed for BIAB but since BIAB allow it with the big filter of the bag it does increase the mash efficiency and allows for faster conversion.
2. The longer mash period doesn't hurt but probably doesn't help either since you got a finer crush. The bigger grain particles of a poor crush take longer (sometimes much longer) to get wet through and until they do there is no conversion of the dry part. With very fine particles the starch gelatinizes very quickly and conversion is very fast. That's how some of us get by with a 30 minute mash.
3. When you pull the bag out and start heating the wort you accomplish mash out. No need to do it while the grains are in the wort.
wilserbrewer
BIAB Expert Tailor
I would suggest doing your heating without the bag in the pot. People sometimes burn or melt the portion of the bag overlapping the top kettle rim.
I believe the heat washes up the side of the kettle quickly w a burner high.
I always heat to strike, turn off and add bag and grain.
JONNYROTTEN
Well-Known Member
Your bags so you would know. I've never heard that. I guess its just from people using propane and the heat rising on the outside of the pot?
I know my rim doesn't get hot. I've been using the same bag for a long time and always put the bag in first. The bag looks perfect endless brews later
JONNYROTTEN
Well-Known Member
I must have magic water.
Its soft water and I brew light ales, light lagers, IPA's AND dark Irish reds. The Irish red(dark beer)is my favorite
I've never made a single water adjustment and my beers taste better than most I try at a bar
Of course we have the best pizza and bagels in the country (debatable...but not really)
Everything I've ever heard is its because our water is so good
Its soft water and I brew light ales, light lagers, IPA's AND dark Irish reds. The Irish red(dark beer)is my favorite
I've never made a single water adjustment and my beers taste better than most I try at a bar
Of course we have the best pizza and bagels in the country (debatable...but not really)
Everything I've ever heard is its because our water is so good
wilserbrewer
BIAB Expert Tailor
Yes, you're on electric immersion element, so this this issue isn't really relevant for you.
I kinda feel like the Farmer's Insurance commercials, if it can happen with a BIAB bag, I've heard about it lol.
My favorite story is a guy was heating his strike water and set his brand new bag on a nearby table. He went back in the house for a minute and a gust of wind blew his bag into the burner flames....we covered it lol.
Or the guy that had his BIAB bag sucked down into the sink garbage disposal...we covered it....
And the new puppy one ....
I am debating whether or not to switch from extract to all grain, which is why I read this thread.
This thread has confused the issue immensely .
Some say the switch is relatively easy, others say a water analysis and further chemistry is needed to achieve a decent beer...discouraging to say the least. I am not, nor do I wish to become, a chemist.
Making extract beer is a great hobby. I think I may further enjoy the extra control and flavor options of all grain recipe choices, but if I need a degree in chemistry to switch to all grain, I think I would prefer to stick with extract brewing.
If the water I use for extract brewing makes good beer, will it make good all grain beer?
This thread has confused the issue immensely .
Some say the switch is relatively easy, others say a water analysis and further chemistry is needed to achieve a decent beer...discouraging to say the least. I am not, nor do I wish to become, a chemist.
Making extract beer is a great hobby. I think I may further enjoy the extra control and flavor options of all grain recipe choices, but if I need a degree in chemistry to switch to all grain, I think I would prefer to stick with extract brewing.
If the water I use for extract brewing makes good beer, will it make good all grain beer?
Yes and no.
If you are a perfectionist and want absolute control of every aspect of your brew, you can do that with BIAB: water adjustments, ph, grain crush, dunk sparge, etc..
Or you can copy a recipes grain bill, add the crushed grain to heated water, mash at 152f for 60 minutes, pull your bag, let it drip into your kettle, boil your wort and continue like you were brewing extract.
It can be as simple or as complex as you want it. I build my water profile so that I can repliacte or make adjustments to the beer I make.
In the end it will be beer.
Come on and jump onto the crazy train of All Grain.
:rockin:Wow this thread blew up a little, lol. Lots of water talk. Right now I will be using RO water as stated. I will by making NE IPAs. SO basically using light oats. Like I said I do have some gypsum and CACL so could add those into the water if needed, not sure how much for 5 gallons? But I dont plan on taking water further than that at this time.
I am brewing extract tomorrow (weather permitting) as I have all the ingredients for it, then next brew day sometime next month might go for a BIAB batch.
Like all the discussion and advise.
I am brewing extract tomorrow (weather permitting) as I have all the ingredients for it, then next brew day sometime next month might go for a BIAB batch.
Like all the discussion and advise.
I'd actually wondered about this.
I have a Blichman Hellfire burner and on a high setting (not the highest--flame washed up the sides of my 10-gallon pot!), as the water approaches boiling it'll be simmering at the surface of the water at the sides of the pot. So I don't doubt that the bag could melt.
I'm glad to know my caution was well-justified in putting the bag in after the water reached strike temperature.
You don't...
Yes, water chemistry is important... But, if you're doing your 1st all grain, it's not the most important (unless, of course, your water is total crap).
Does your water make decent beer from extract? Then it'll probably make decent beer via all grain. Will it be the best possible beer if you ignore water chemistry? Probably not... especially if you ignore chlorine/chloramine (campden tablets are your friend). There are things to happen during the mash that are affected by pH, mineral content of your water, etc. You should keep that in mind for the future.
Yes, you could make your beer better with adjustments to your water. Do you need to for your first few AG batches? Maybe not. If you're worried about it, do a 1 gallon test batch. Grind your grain fine so that you can get away with a 30 minute mash. Reduced volume will boil faster, so you're not putting too much more extra time compared to an extract batch (maybe 1 hour more?). Do a simple recipe in the style you'll do most often, or a converted version of your favorite simple extract recipe. And see how it comes out.
BIAB (or AG in general) doesn't have to be that hard. From the boil onward, it's the same as extract. I went from 4-5 Mr. Beer kits, to 1 homemade extract clone recipe, to BIAB. After several years and I can't recall how many batches, I've never adjusted my water except for Campden Tabs for chloramine. I don't own a pH meter.
I'm just now starting to look into water chemistry to improve my beers.
I'm lucky that my municipal water seems to be OK except for chloramines. Could my beers be better if looked at sulfate levels? Chloride? Alkalinity? Total dissolved solids? Almost certainly. But my beers are still quite good. My friends and family are happy to be gifted 6-12 bottles. I enjoy drinking them more than most commercial offerings.
It depends on your personality, brewing style, and palate. Is a "decent" beer good enough for your first all grain batch? Or must it be spectacular and far surpassing anything you've ever made before? Can you taste every defect in your beers? Or are they mostly pretty good? Are you willing to turn out a "meh" batch before looking into water chemistry or do your standards preclude anything that is merely at the same level as commercial beers?
Nothing anyone has said about water chemistry is incorrect (I don't think, I didn't scrutinize it that closely). It's just that unless you know for sure that your water isn't good for a certain style, then I wouldn't let chemistry stop you from trying BIAB. You'll make beer. It'll be fun. You'll learn something. And you can see if AG via BIAB is for you.
It might not be. You might prefer the relative ease and simplicity of extract brewing vs the extra hassle, yet more control, of AG. Plenty of great beer is being made by extract brewers. But it's worth trying, so you know for sure.
If your 1st AG batch turns out crappy, come back here and folks will help you trouble shoot. Might even turn out to be that water chemistry is the culprit.
Or you might just make a great tasting beer.
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Thank you jtratcliff for your reply! I appreciate your time spent.
I use Tom Thumb brand bottled "spring water" for brewing. Would this preclude my need to test water, or does store bought spring water mean virtually nothing in regards to brewing?
I use Tom Thumb brand bottled "spring water" for brewing. Would this preclude my need to test water, or does store bought spring water mean virtually nothing in regards to brewing?
Wouldn't hurt to email them and ask for a water report, if your curiosity gets the better of ya.
I use distilled water(cheapest water in my area, go figure) so that my baseline is zero and build my profile to whatever I want it to be.
Or just mash with the spring water you have already used and see if you like it.
Spring water would have some minerals which would usually make pretty decent beer, Misquoting John Palmer, "if your water tastes good to drink it will make decent beer". Go ahead, make a batch with it. If you are worried about it, make a small batch but I'd go with a full size batch.
Morrey
Well-Known Member
Good start! My buddy Mongoose33 summarized brewing by saying there is a learning curve involved. You have to start somewhere.
I knew I'd eventually have to tackle water chemistry along the line but heck, I wanted to brew some BIAB beer to get rolling. I used jugs of RO water from my office to get going since that is fairly neutral, now I use adjusted municipal water with lab reports.
Start somewhere, keep brewing, keep learning and always enjoy! You'll love BIAB.
Can you describe your process for filtering out the husk and sediment?
Morrey
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by jdonley
I've done a bunch of BIAB, and when I first started all my beers had an astringent flavor on the back end of them. For the life of me I couldn't figure out why mash ph? poor fermentation temperature control? So I bought a ph tester, an old fridge, and temperature control unit... the problem still persisted. I noticed a little bit of grain husks in the boil kettle after removing the bag especially during the hot break. So my next brew I rigged up a way to filter all the wort collected back through the grain bag so as to filter out any unwanted sediment or husks that may have made its way into the wort through one way or another. This step took atringent flavor out of my beers. Just my experience
What type of grain bag were you using that was allowing husk materials to be in your wort? Getting the grain out of the wort effectively is the beauty of BIAB.
I've done a bunch of BIAB, and when I first started all my beers had an astringent flavor on the back end of them. For the life of me I couldn't figure out why mash ph? poor fermentation temperature control? So I bought a ph tester, an old fridge, and temperature control unit... the problem still persisted. I noticed a little bit of grain husks in the boil kettle after removing the bag especially during the hot break. So my next brew I rigged up a way to filter all the wort collected back through the grain bag so as to filter out any unwanted sediment or husks that may have made its way into the wort through one way or another. This step took atringent flavor out of my beers. Just my experience
What type of grain bag were you using that was allowing husk materials to be in your wort? Getting the grain out of the wort effectively is the beauty of BIAB.
Just use a fine mesh bag, like the type Wilser sells. Paint strainer bags, and most (L)HBS generic bags are too coarse to be optimal, but they do work. If you squeeze the bag (like I do) you will get some flour that makes it thru the mesh, but it's nothing to worry about. I start with cloudy wort (but no husk or grain chunks), and end up with crystal clear beers, thanks to cold crashing and gelatin after cold crash. I probably have more trub at the bottom of my fermenter due to the higher particulate level in the wort, but the trub stays in the fermenter if you use good racking technique.
Brew on
You can certainly make all grain beer without doing water adjustments, but unless your water is ideally suited for the style of beer you are making, your beer is not likely to be as good as it could be. Ignoring the water chemistry for your first few AG brews is certainly a sound strategy, but if you find your beers somewhat disappointing, it's time to start thinking about adjusting water.
The good news is that you do NOT need to understand the chemistry in order to do proper water adjustments. There are tools like Bru'nWater and EZWater that take care of the chemistry and calculations for you. To use them you just need to know what's in your starting water. If you are using distilled or RO water, it has (effectively) nothing in it, so things are simple. You do not NEED a pH meter, unless you want to verify that the calculations of the tool you use are "good enough", but they usually are, so you can get by w/o the meter. Water adjustments can make your beer taste better, and may improve your conversion efficiency (if your unadjusted mash pH is way off.)
Brew on
Just use a fine mesh bag, like the type Wilser sells. Paint strainer bags, and most (L)HBS generic bags are too coarse to be optimal, but they do work. If you squeeze the bag (like I do) you will get some flour that makes it thru the mesh, but it's nothing to worry about. I start with cloudy wort (but no husk or grain chunks), and end up with crystal clear beers, thanks to cold crashing and gelatin after cold crash. I probably have more trub at the bottom of my fermenter due to the higher particulate level in the wort, but the trub stays in the fermenter if you use good racking technique.
Brew on
Yeah, I follow a similar process. Crystal clear brews, no husks but some of the flour does make it through. I would like to reduce this without having to wait for it to settle and decant.
Morrey
Well-Known Member
You can certainly make all grain beer without doing water adjustments
The good news is that you do NOT need to understand the chemistry in order to do proper water adjustments. There are tools like Bru'nWater and EZWater that take care of the chemistry and calculations for you. To use them you just need to know what's in your starting water. If you are using distilled or RO water, it has (effectively) nothing in it, so things are simple. You do not NEED a pH meter, unless you want to verify that the calculations of the tool you use are "good enough", Brew on
Plus 1. I have a ph meter simply because I do kettle sours regularly, but I have never checked the ph behind Bru'n Water to find that any of those calculations were inaccurate. If I were only doing standard non-soured beers, I would simply follow Bru'n water and not worry with a meter.
I've been brewing mostly BIAB for 4 years now. I'm interested in water chemistry but my filtered tap water is pretty good so I have been making great beer without it. I think getting involved with a local homebrew club helped a LOT. They let me know that our water is good for just about anything, but I might need a couple additions if I really want my IPA's to pop. I guess I cheated and made a Black IPA about 3 years ago. I still get asked by the guys at the club when I am going to make that again...
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