Things I don't like about iBrewMaster

[LAKing]

I just discovered that the iPad version and iPhone version of iBrewmaster is two different apps, and had to pay twice for it. That is LAME LAME LAME . Most respectable iOS apps are universal across iPad and iPhone. You buy once and you get it on all of your devices.

 

[JimTheHick]

Capitalism at its worst. We're not talking about a 0.99 app here.

 

[Satisfaction]

I use both Beersmith and iBrewmaster, after I figured out the nuances of iBrewmaster it is my go to software on my brew day.

Also the developer is extremely active and quick to respond to and inquiries. That is worth some of the cost of the software. The human element is rare.

 

[alestateyall]

Capitalism at its worst. We're not talking about a 0.99 app here.

Yep. The developer of iBrewmaster is smart. He knows we will pay high prices so he charges them.

 

[Sherpa FE]

Better than a $29.00 program, that was modified for the worse, no Mac version, doesn't sync to another device, and the only way to use it is to drag out a laptop. Clearly a much better choice!

One things for sure, can't pay enough to put up with the haters, whiners, cheap a$$ people that think they can do better!

 

[JimTheHick]

I suppose if I were a pro or faux pro brewer then I'd consider a $30 purchase for one of these softwares. However, for brewing once a month, Hopville works great. I'm even considering donating a dollar. But not two. I'm frugal.

 

[rawlus]

A pro wouldn't be brewing with an iPad I bet. Lol

I find the arguments about app costs so funny. Not just this app but basically any app that's not free. Ppl are funny.

 

[JimTheHick]

A pro wouldn't be brewing with an iPad I bet. Lol

I find the arguments about app costs so funny. Not just this app but basically any app that's not free. Ppl are funny.

Good point about pro's on iPads! Sounds unlikely.

I disagree that cost is not a salient point of discussion when considering apps, however.

 

[ScottSingleton]

What's even more sure is that one can't pay enough to keep the fanboys at bay either. No matter what there are both sides and both lend to constructive discussion on both the pros and cons.

I think this discussion has great points on both sides; and iBrewmaster should take note of them, both for the good and bad.

I use both iBrewMaster and BrewSmith, like both for various reasons and definitely note the shortcomings of each.

but to remaining objective is key; I don't think anyone here is being a hater for hater's sake; you have to admit as far as iPad app prices go it's high. Especially since Apple doesn't refund money on purchases and iBrewmaster doesn't have a trial.

 

[rawlus]

Yeah, I guess I don't get as worked up about app prices as most seem to do. The economic realities of an app are such that even at $10 you get something reasonably polished with support and updates for life. It's cost is REALLY low. 2 micro drafts at the avg bar low.

It is unfortunate that ppl now expect the world on a platter for $0.99

You have to consider, if you are developing a mass market app that will be 500k downloads, then 99cents might do it. What's the potential audience size for a brewing app and what is the competition now and future? What are your costs, can you work on this app 40 hrs a week and make ends meet? I think I read somewhere that the initial projections for app sales of ibrewmaster were 22 downloads. What is your time worth? How many manhours would you be willing to out into a 0.99 home brewing app? Can you afford to work for free for the first 6 months?

In my experience, I tend to see higher app prices for self-published apps, those from software companies seem to have lower entry costs. Cost/value is a difficult thing to please everyone on... But I do think the general public is a bit spoiled/unrealistic in their expectations sometimes. You can do a lot of things with apps for free, personally I can't stand most of the free apps, i hate the in-app advertising, and I'm willing to pay $5 for a great weather app or whatever... It's a cup of coffee. A $10 app is a car wash and the car is dirty again a day later. I do know ppl who think $.99 is too much to pay.... Really? It's such a silly situation.

 

[Special Hops]

True it used to be a decent computer program set you back 50-60 bucks at least. Now people bitch about an app every time it's more then 99cents.

 

[alestateyall]

Two more things I don't like about iBrewmaster:

1. Small text: I am 41 and reading tiny text on the iPhone screen is difficult. This app needs a text size option. It squeezes too much info on the screen. It is difficult to read my recipe on brew day.

2. The app doesn't correct for temperature on hydrometer readings. I had to use Brewpal for that.

 

[JimTheHick]

True it used to be a decent computer program set you back 50-60 bucks at least. Now people bitch about an app every time it's more then 99cents.

It seems like a lot to ask for 10-15 twice for the same program. I'd pay 10-15 once if I got it on both devices. However IF the price was only a buck I'd pay it twice without blinking.

 

[t020673]

As someone VERY new to the home brew experience, I bought the iBrewMaster app for my iPad to help me. At first I thought the UI was a bit busy and confusing to use so I spent an hour or so reading the "help" document. I still find the Mash Profile section confusing, but I think it is because I'm new to home brewing and I believe the app assumes the user has at least a better than average working knowledge of AG mash steps. I've learned MUCH more about sparge styles, mash steps, etc. by reading other brewers' posts.

I am a bit nervous leaving my iPad around my work area while I'm brewing for fear of spillage so I try to write my notes the old-fashioned way and then enter them into the app later.

The app does crash on me more often than I like, fortunately I haven't lost any critical information. Since I've never used the BrewSmith software, I can't compare the two products, but I may download the trial version and give it a shot.

 

[alestateyall]

I was contacted by Joe at iBrewmaster about this thread to day.

One of my rants was about the price. Joe defended the price primarily by noting that the app is very well supported with continuous free upgrades. According to Joe the app has been out for 3 years and he has never charged for upgrades. I can attest that the app is very well supported. Joe is responsive and the app continues to improve.

All my other gripes were related to either feature requests desired organization changes. Many of these will come in time with Joe's continued stellar support.

 

[scubakevdm]

So.... It rocks?

 

[alestateyall]

No. It doesn't rock. But it also doesn't suck.

I just wanted to point out the developer does put a lot of time and effort into the app and promised to correct some the items I pointed out in my original review. There is something to be said for that responsiveness.

 

[scubakevdm]

He Rocks!

 

[HopRodGR]

I have both iBrewMaster and Beersmith. Can anyone comment on the accuracy of the two programs? I find that if I enter the exact same recipe into both programs, I get different results. I understand that there will be slight differences in IBU's and SRM, however those two values are usually very very close, it's the OG that is usually off, often by about 4-5 gravity points. I've gone through and checked the equipment profiles for both programs and made sure they matched, and double checked the gravity contribution of the ingredients, along with any other settings that should create differences.

Each time I find that Beersmith requires less grain to get to the same OG. If no one else has experienced this, maybe I need to check again, but I thought I'd at least pose the question.

 

[alestateyall]

I have both iBrewMaster and Beersmith. Can anyone comment on the accuracy of the two programs? I find that if I enter the exact same recipe into both programs, I get different results. I understand that there will be slight differences in IBU's and SRM, however those two values are usually very very close, it's the OG that is usually off, often by about 4-5 gravity points. I've gone through and checked the equipment profiles for both programs and made sure they matched, and double checked the gravity contribution of the ingredients, along with any other settings that should create differences.

Each time I find that Beersmith requires less grain to get to the same OG. If no one else has experienced this, maybe I need to check again, but I thought I'd at least pose the question.

For the same recipes I get the same OG prediction from iBrewmaster, BrewPal, and my personal excel spreadsheet (uses equations from Palmer's How to Brew). I don't have Beersmith. For a long time my OG was different between programs. It turned out to be my batch size. Doh!

One value I get different in iBrewmaster is the boil size. iBrewmaster says 7.03 gallons, Brewpal says 6.79. I think iBrewmaster reports the boil size for water at 212F and Brewpal reports boil size for water at 75F.

I also get slight differences in IBU's for Tinseth. I think that is related to OG averaging and the "maximum utilization value parameter" which Tinseth uses 4.15 but "suggests fiddling with 4.15 if necessary to match your system". Source http://realbeer.com/hops/research.html. I have tried changing the 4.15 value in my personal spreadsheet but can't match iBrewmaster's IBU numbers for my life.

I also get slight differences in SRM. I have never worried about that.

 

[HopRodGR]

To simplify this to the greatest extent possible, I doubled checked my equipment profiles again in both Beersmith and iBrewMaster, which are the same. Just as an example, I entered one grain and one hop to see what would happen. I chose:

10lb Briess 2-Row Brewers Malt, Potential SG of 1.037, 1.8L
1oz Centennial 10% AA at 60 minutes
5.5 gallon batch, 75% efficiency

For comparison:
SRM: nearly equal, only 0.2 difference, so not material
IBU: nearly equal, only 0.9 difference using Tinseth, again, not material
Pre-Boil volume: equal, 7.25 for both
Estimated Original Gravity: Beersmith = 1.050, iBrewMaster = 1.046

Minor difference like 0.2 SRM and 1 IBU are really undetectable, so no big deal there. But the differences in OG from the same single grain is hard to figure out. Just for the hell of it I also punched this into BrewPal and got 1.050, 3.0SRM and 31 IBU.

Beersmith has always done me well so I always use it for my final recipes. I like iBrewMaster just to throw down a recipe when I'm not at my computer, but the difference in OG is really keeping me from using it to put together a final recipe, as I always adjust it in Beersmith before brewing. It's a nice program with some good features, but definitely, in my mind at least, far from a single solution if you are going to choose one piece of brewing software.

 

[alestateyall]

To simplify this to the greatest extent possible, I doubled checked my equipment profiles again in both Beersmith and iBrewMaster, which are the same. Just as an example, I entered one grain and one hop to see what would happen. I chose:

10lb Briess 2-Row Brewers Malt, Potential SG of 1.037, 1.8L
1oz Centennial 10% AA at 60 minutes
5.5 gallon batch, 75% efficiency

For comparison:
SRM: nearly equal, only 0.2 difference, so not material
IBU: nearly equal, only 0.9 difference using Tinseth, again, not material
Pre-Boil volume: equal, 7.25 for both
Estimated Original Gravity: Beersmith = 1.050, iBrewMaster = 1.046

Minor difference like 0.2 SRM and 1 IBU are really undetectable, so no big deal there. But the differences in OG from the same single grain is hard to figure out. Just for the hell of it I also punched this into BrewPal and got 1.050, 3.0SRM and 31 IBU.

Beersmith has always done me well so I always use it for my final recipes. I like iBrewMaster just to throw down a recipe when I'm not at my computer, but the difference in OG is really keeping me from using it to put together a final recipe, as I always adjust it in Beersmith before brewing. It's a nice program with some good features, but definitely, in my mind at least, far from a single solution if you are going to choose one piece of brewing software.

I got OG 1.050 with iBrewmaster with those ingredients. See below.

 

[HopRodGR]

I got OG 1.050 with iBrewmaster with those ingredients. See below.



View attachment 60663

Very interesting. Only thing I can see that is different is the pre-boil volume. Mine is 7.25, but that includes a 0.50 gallon kettle trub loss, 1.00 gallon boil-off, and 0.25% cooling shrinkage to get to 5.50 gallons into the fermenter.

Somehow I can see this heading in the direction of me inputting something wrong, but I honestly can find what that is at the moment...

 

[alestateyall]

Very interesting. Only thing I can see that is different is the pre-boil volume. Mine is 7.25, but that includes a 0.50 gallon kettle trub loss, 1.00 gallon boil-off, and 0.25% cooling shrinkage to get to 5.50 gallons into the fermenter.

Somehow I can see this heading in the direction of me inputting something wrong, but I honestly can find what that is at the moment...

I get the same when I add the boil loss and kettle trub loss you have.

The lower OG is because the software assumes that you had 6 gallons of wort post boil then you left 0.5 gallons in the kettle taking only 5.5 gallons to the fermenter. So the OG prediction is based on the 6 gallon value because that is the volume which had the sugars evenly diluted in it. You have tole the software you are throwing away 0.5 gallons withs it's share of sugars. Hence the lower OG.

I set kettle trub loss at 0 because I pour everything from the kettle into my fermenter.

 

[HopRodGR]

I get the same when I add the boil loss and kettle trub loss you have.

The lower OG is because the software assumes that you had 6 gallons of wort post boil then you left 0.5 gallons in the kettle taking only 5.5 gallons to the fermenter. So the OG prediction is based on the 6 gallon value because that is the volume which had the sugars evenly diluted in it. You have tole the software you are throwing away 0.5 gallons withs it's share of sugars. Hence the lower OG.

I set kettle trub loss at 0 because I pour everything from the kettle into my fermenter.

After playing with both software packages for the last half hour, my head now hurts. As an extreme example, I bumped up trub loss to 1.99 (the max) on both Beersmith and iBrewMaster. Beersmith says OG stays the same, 1.050, which can't be right if you are leaving that much wort behind. iBrewMaster dropped to 1.037, which seems right, since you are now using 10lbs of grain to get fermentable sugars into about 8.8 gallons of wort pre-boil, of which 1 gallon boils off and 2 are left behind. If you have trub loss, that wort post boil better be the OG you want going into your fermenter, so it now seems like the Beersmith calc is off. I can't get comfortable saying that though, since you have me (relatively new brewer) vs. Brad (writer of highly respected and widely used brewing software). Well, if someone can point out where I'm wrong here, please feel free to do so.

 

[HopRodGR]

After playing with both software packages for the last half hour, my head now hurts. As an extreme example, I bumped up trub loss to 1.99 (the max) on both Beersmith and iBrewMaster. Beersmith says OG stays the same, 1.050, which can't be right if you are leaving that much wort behind. iBrewMaster dropped to 1.037, which seems right, since you are now using 10lbs of grain to get fermentable sugars into about 8.8 gallons of wort pre-boil, of which 1 gallon boils off and 2 are left behind. If you have trub loss, that wort post boil better be the OG you want going into your fermenter, so it now seems like the Beersmith calc is off. I can't get comfortable saying that though, since you have me (relatively new brewer) vs. Brad (writer of highly respected and widely used brewing software). Well, if someone can point out where I'm wrong here, please feel free to do so.

Ok, after a bit of digging, it appears this might be the issue I'm having with Beersmith. Looks like I'm not the only one who's experiencing this.

http://www.beersmith.com/forum/index.php/topic,4911.msg26898.html#msg26898

 

[alestateyall]

Ok, after a bit of digging, it appears this might be the issue I'm having with Beersmith. Looks like I'm not the only one who's experiencing this.

http://www.beersmith.com/forum/index.php/topic,4911.msg26898.html#msg26898

Here are some examples that may help or may confuse. I think batch size is intended as the volume of stuff in the fermenter (rather than the volume of beer that makes it into bottles or kegs). I think trub loss the the volume left in the kettle when whirlpooling.

Recipe
10# Briess 2-Row, 75% efficiency
Intent: 5.5 gallons in kettle before transfer to fermenter.

1) 5.5 gallon batch in which I pour all contents of kettle into fermenter.
batch size = 5.5 gallons
trub loss = 0
OG = 1.050

Since I poured the trub into the fermenter I don't really have 5.5 gallons of beer. In my case I usually have about 0.3 gallons of trub on the bottom of the carboy and about 5.2 gallons of beer. But, I think a share sugars are in that trub (at least the equations assume so).

2) Whirlpooling
batch size = 5.2 gallons
trub loss = 0.3 gallons
OG = 1.050

You have to reduce the batch size if you increase the trub loss. batch size + trub loss is the total volume in the kettle right before transferring to the fermenter.

3) Incorrect whirlpool setting
batch size = 5.5 gallons
trub loss = 0.3 gallons
OG = 1.048

This setting says you want 5.5 gallons in the fermenter and are leaving 0.3 gallons in the kettle. This makes volume, V(post boil) below, used in in OG calculations 5.8 gallons effectively diluting the sugars.

The equation from Palmer to go from preboil SG to post boil SG is:

SG(post boil) = SG(preboil)*V(preboil) / V(post boil)

In all the cases above the V(post boil) is the batch size + trub loss.

I think iBrewmaster and BrewPal OG prediction is correct with these settings.

 

[iBrewMaster]

Hey guys!
I thought iBrewMaster should officially chime in here! Yes! It is because of the Kettle Trub Loss. It seems as though some other software has never taken this into consideration and many users tend to immediately believe that iBrewMaster is wrong because of their years of experience with those other apps! :-D But Kehaar hit the nail on the head! Your gravity isn't diluted just by the wort that you remove from the kettle of course, but is diluted by the entire kettle volume including what you left behind! We receive a lot of Q's in regard to this, and have an entry in our FAQ's about it, but here's a detailed description of the issue that explains the calculations and the math behind them...no secrets there!! I hope it helps!

FAQ: Why did the OG calculations change in my recipes? They don't appear to be correct compared to other applications out there!

Answer: We corrected a minor bug with the OG calculations as we were originally calculating OG by not including the Kettle Trub Loss. Obviously, whatever is left in the Kettle has still diluted the fermentable sugars. So, if you had a recipe size of 5.00 gallons, but a Kettle Trub Loss of .25 gallons, we were only using the 5 gallons instead of 5.25. You can adjust what your Kettle Trub Loss is by changing it in the Setup → Mash / Eq Profiles, then use that profile for your recipe. So, if you dump the entire kettle into your primary, you would want it set to 0. (This should bring your calculations back to the original values you used to see.)

For the curious…here’s the formula:

currentGrainGravity = (grainAmount * ((grainSG – 1) * 1000) * (Efficiency / 100)) / (recipeSize + defaultKettleLoss)

For each grain, you take the amount (in lbs) and multiply it by the number of gravity points for that grain, or SG. (The * 1000 is because a gravity of 1.037 would yield .037 after subtracting the 1, and we need to convert that to 37.) Then you multiply that by the efficiency. You need to divide that by the recipeSize including the Kettle Loss. So here’s an example:

2 lbs of a 1.037 gravity grain, efficiency of 70% and with a recipeSize of 5.00 gallons and a Kettle Loss of .25 gallons

currentGrainGravity = (2 * ((1.037 – 1) * 1000) * (70 / 100)) / (5.00 + .25)

currentGrainGravity = (2 * (.037 * 1000) * .7) / 5.25

currentGrainGravity = (2 * 37 * .7) / 5.25

currentGrainGravity = 51.8 / 5.25

currentGrainGravity = 9.866

Now, let’s look at it from a practical standpoint. If you get 37 gravity points per lb of grain per gallon of water, then 2 lbs would give us 74 points. However, we only have an efficiency of 70%, so you get 51.8 gravity points. But that’s per gallon….if you have 5.25 gallons of wort in your kettle before you transfer 5 gallons to your primary, you need to divide the 51.8 gravity points by the entire 5.25 gallons, not 5 gallons as we ourselves were also originally doing. Therefore, you end up with 51.8 / 5.25 or 9.866 gravity point contribution from this one grain. Do this for every grain you have, and add em up.

The bottom line is that while iBrewMaster may have been showing you accurate OG calculations for your setup (assuming you don’t have any Kettle Trub Loss), they were incorrect for those users who do have a Kettle Trub Loss. So all you have to do to correct it is to set your Kettle Trub Loss to 0 for the Mash / Eq Profile that you use for your recipe if you have none.

Cheers all!

 

[HopRodGR]

Hey guys!
I thought iBrewMaster should officially chime in here! Yes! It is because of the Kettle Trub Loss. It seems as though some other software has never taken this into consideration and many users tend to immediately believe that iBrewMaster is wrong because of their years of experience with those other apps! :-D But Kehaar hit the nail on the head! Your gravity isn't diluted just by the wort that you remove from the kettle of course, but is diluted by the entire kettle volume including what you left behind! We receive a lot of Q's in regard to this, and have an entry in our FAQ's about it, but here's a detailed description of the issue that explains the calculations and the math behind them...no secrets there!! I hope it helps!

FAQ: Why did the OG calculations change in my recipes? They don't appear to be correct compared to other applications out there!

Answer: We corrected a minor bug with the OG calculations as we were originally calculating OG by not including the Kettle Trub Loss. Obviously, whatever is left in the Kettle has still diluted the fermentable sugars. So, if you had a recipe size of 5.00 gallons, but a Kettle Trub Loss of .25 gallons, we were only using the 5 gallons instead of 5.25. You can adjust what your Kettle Trub Loss is by changing it in the Setup → Mash / Eq Profiles, then use that profile for your recipe. So, if you dump the entire kettle into your primary, you would want it set to 0. (This should bring your calculations back to the original values you used to see.)

For the curious…here’s the formula:

currentGrainGravity = (grainAmount * ((grainSG – 1) * 1000) * (Efficiency / 100)) / (recipeSize + defaultKettleLoss)

For each grain, you take the amount (in lbs) and multiply it by the number of gravity points for that grain, or SG. (The * 1000 is because a gravity of 1.037 would yield .037 after subtracting the 1, and we need to convert that to 37.) Then you multiply that by the efficiency. You need to divide that by the recipeSize including the Kettle Loss. So here’s an example:

2 lbs of a 1.037 gravity grain, efficiency of 70% and with a recipeSize of 5.00 gallons and a Kettle Loss of .25 gallons

currentGrainGravity = (2 * ((1.037 – 1) * 1000) * (70 / 100)) / (5.00 + .25)

currentGrainGravity = (2 * (.037 * 1000) * .7) / 5.25

currentGrainGravity = (2 * 37 * .7) / 5.25

currentGrainGravity = 51.8 / 5.25

currentGrainGravity = 9.866

Now, let’s look at it from a practical standpoint. If you get 37 gravity points per lb of grain per gallon of water, then 2 lbs would give us 74 points. However, we only have an efficiency of 70%, so you get 51.8 gravity points. But that’s per gallon….if you have 5.25 gallons of wort in your kettle before you transfer 5 gallons to your primary, you need to divide the 51.8 gravity points by the entire 5.25 gallons, not 5 gallons as we ourselves were also originally doing. Therefore, you end up with 51.8 / 5.25 or 9.866 gravity point contribution from this one grain. Do this for every grain you have, and add em up.

The bottom line is that while iBrewMaster may have been showing you accurate OG calculations for your setup (assuming you don’t have any Kettle Trub Loss), they were incorrect for those users who do have a Kettle Trub Loss. So all you have to do to correct it is to set your Kettle Trub Loss to 0 for the Mash / Eq Profile that you use for your recipe if you have none.

Cheers all!

I came to this exact same conclusion late last night right before making my last post. iBrewMaster has it right, so my apologies for doubting the accuracy . Once I incorporated the Beersmith workaround, everything matched up between recipes.

I guess this is where I eat crow and retract part of my previous statement. I think you really could use just iBrewMaster for recipe creation. I like the timers and the temperature calcs for mashing appear to be accurate. I honestly use the app more than any other software I own, but haven't been using it on brew day. That may very well change. Just the fact that you were willing to reply at length and the fact that there are new updates regularly speaks highly in my mind.

While we have you in the thread, is there any plans to incorporate changes in attenuation with the yeast you choose based upon the mash temperature you select? I think that would be a nice addition instead of having to manually set it each time.

 

[iBrewMaster]

No worries HopRod! We actively try to monitor forums and respond to user requests, feature updates, and appreciate constructive criticism. It's the only way to understand what users need and want, and we take iBrewMaster very seriously. I can't begin to tell you the features we have planned! It's just a matter of time and prioritizing them. Speaking of that...one of our top priorities is to expand on the yeast options. We're simply too thin there right now....we'll be putting in some yeast pitching calculators and allowing multiple yeast additions. I'm a bit thrown on tying it to the mash temperature, as the mashing would have taken place before the boil....I assume you meant the Primary temp!? That's a great idea to automatically populate it based on the primary temperature and still allow users to override it. In addition, we're investigating the effects of attenuation when using multiple strains. We're honestly not sure if the attenuation should be an average of the different yeast attenuations, or if it should be the highest. There's also no real way to know which yeast began propagation first or which is dominant. We've actually reached out to some of the yeast companies for some direction here!

In either case, thanks for the reply! Lots more planned!

Cheers!
Joe