There's Some Bad Info Going Around

[chezzesteak]

Right, and who is making 3% beer here? I want them BANNED!

Me!

 

[Homercidal]

Which company says not to rehydrate?

I believe they both say that you could rehydrate now, but at one time at least one of them said to just pitch on the wort, while telling the pro brewers to rehydrate.

I think they've started to realize the homebrewers are not as simple-minded about brewing as they once were, as a whole, and capable of following slightly more challenging instructions in order to make a better beer.

 

[wildwest450]

I was directing the question to "thegerm" who says the yeast company's say that rehydration isn't necessary. And of course, he makes better beer than the rest of us.

 

[Hermit]

Yeast must be completely dormant for packaging purposes. Reading articles here lead me to believe cold crashing causes the yeast to build up their reserves. With dry yeast you can cold crash, dry and package and they remain dormant. You can't do that with liquid yeast because they will warm up and become active in the package.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

But fermentis says to aerate with their yeasts. So do you want to believe the makers of Notty, or the makers of us-05?

This is another one of those arguments that probably will never be resolved and will be argued incessantly. And like all the others will have no resolution, so it's stupid to argue, just choose what you believe, and do it.

I was taught to aerate will all yeasts....And I personally don't plan on stopping. It may not be "necessary," but I don't think doing it is harmful either.

This is a bad mindset, IMO. To make an analogy, you would not follow common knowledge to install a roof. Instead, you would read the directions and FOLLOW the manufacturers MINIMUM reccomendations for your application because your insurance and guarantee would require it.

This mindset should apply to EVERYTHING.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

about not needing to aerate dry yeast. This is completely false info and I can just picture noobs taking this in and having a ton of stuck ferments. Let's nip this in the bud! Aerate, people!

Agreed! You should always aerate people.

Otherwise they suffocate.

Yeast however can do thing aerobically (eat yer heart out p90) and anaerobically. Often times, teh yeast producer has already satisfied the cardio phase.

 

[H-ost]

One company says aerate and the other says don't... Doesn't sound like it matters too much. They both are selling a product and they both want to keep selling that product. If one company says aeration is unnecessary then I am inclined to believe them. They aren't disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing here, they both obviously think they are right and neither probably know the whole truth behind it. It would be idiotic for a company to give you incorrect directions on purpose seeing as they want you to buy again.

I'm gonna blow your mind here... take a pack of yeast, throw it into any sugary solution, you will make beer (more like hooch I guess).

That said, if both have conflicting directions then you need to decide what works best for you.

Revvy had it right. Who do you want to believe? I will continue to aerate everytime I pitch any yeast and I will continue to make beer with that method. I have also never rehydrated or made a starter and still miraculously came out with beer! Once I get some other processes under control I will be studying hard on pitching rates and O2 levels to help make the best beer I can but until then this seems like it would have such a small impact on my beer. There is so much to fine tune in this hobby that when you see conflicting info about something this obscure just use your power of free will and make your own damn decision.

 

[ClarnoBrewer]

+1

one company says aerate and the other says don't... Doesn't sound like it matters too much. They both are selling a product and they both want to keep selling that product. If one company says aeration is unnecessary then i am inclined to believe them. They aren't disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing here, they both obviously think they are right and neither probably know the whole truth behind it. It would be idiotic for a company to give you incorrect directions on purpose seeing as they want you to buy again.

I'm gonna blow your mind here... Take a pack of yeast, throw it into any sugary solution, you will make beer (more like hooch i guess).

That said, if both have conflicting directions then you need to decide what works best for you.

Revvy had it right. Who do you want to believe? I will continue to aerate everytime i pitch any yeast and i will continue to make beer with that method. I have also never rehydrated or made a starter and still miraculously came out with beer! Once i get some other processes under control i will be studying hard on pitching rates and o2 levels to help make the best beer i can but until then this seems like it would have such a small impact on my beer. There is so much to fine tune in this hobby that when you see conflicting info about something this obscure just use your power of free will and make your own damn decision.

 

[xjmox14x]

Well, the way I see it, you've got three options here:

1) Contact Wyeast, White Labs, Danstar, and Fermentis and ask them whether or not they believe it is necessary to aerate the wort and why. Also ask if they have any credible scientific evidence to back it up. You will either believe what they have to say, and move on with your life, or you will not believe what they have to say because they are just a company selling a product and want to ensure they keep doing so.

2) Set up a molecular biological scale experiment in the confines of your own home with equipment you will probably never be able to get or afford. Suppose you could do so, record your own clinical trials and results.

3) Experiment at home disregarding the "WHY" something is happening (which would be answered by number 1 or 2 above), and pay attention only to the results produced. Experiment with dry yeast in aerated wort, non-aerated wort, liquid yeast in aerated wort, non-aerated wort, high gravity wort, low gravity wort, etc. Record your results. You will not know why you get a certain result, but you will know what result you get. This doesn't take into account different beers where you MAY want sub-par performance from yeast to reach a certain ester flavor profile (i.e. certain hefeweizens, saisons, etc.)

Anything other than those three options is merely tossing around opinions. I'm all for that as they generate discussion, curiosity, and learning experiences. However, you won't get the answers you're clearly looking for...

 

[xjmox14x]

A producer of a product is in selling product, not making sure you've got the best beer possible. I'm not saying they're bad people, but it's business.

Not sure this really makes sense. Sure they want to sell a product. They also want to ensure they KEEP selling their product. Knowingly giving the customer false information that will result in a non-quality product will not serve their company well in the least. Not to mention, this information has zero bearing on the company whatsoever. They're not endorsing another product by saying you must aerate the wort. Whether or not they tell the customer to aerate the wort has zero cost impact on the company one way or the other, so why wouldn't they want to give free, useful, information to the customer to make them satisfied and keep coming back?

 

[BrewKnurd]

Whether or not they tell the customer to aerate the wort has zero cost impact on the company one way or the other, so why wouldn't they want to give free, useful, information to the customer to make them satisfied and keep coming back?

Well, one thing to consider is that if I know nothing about brewing and I look at two yeasts, one of them says i have to aerate, one doesn't, i might pick the one that says it doesn't just because ease of use.

I agree that in the absence of any other factors, providing the best information would be the winning option. But consumer psychology muddles the whole thing, IMO.

As a disclaimer, i'm not saying that any yeast companies intentionally mislead consumers to try to make their product seem easier to use. Just saying its a possible reason why they might, if indeed any of them are doing such things.

 

[two_hearted]

Some kit instructions say to primary for 3 days, secondary for 1 week and bottle. Will you make beer that way? Yes. Can you make better beer utilizing different methods and more knowledge. Yes.

But if you read the directions at the HBS and say "Wahoo, I'll have beer in 10 days!" you're probably going to buy that kit over one that has more complicated instructions and takes twice the time.

Edit: discnjh beat me to it. ^what he said.

 

[xjmox14x]

Well, one thing to consider is that if I know nothing about brewing and I look at two yeasts, one of them says i have to aerate, one doesn't, i might pick the one that says it doesn't just because ease of use.

I agree that in the absence of any other factors, providing the best information would be the winning option. But consumer psychology muddles the whole thing, IMO.

As a disclaimer, i'm not saying that any yeast companies intentionally mislead consumers to try to make their product seem easier to use. Just saying its a possible reason why they might, if indeed any of them are doing such things.

I see what you're saying... much like liquid yeast manufacturer's not stating the need for a starter for anything over 1.060. Certainly something to think about.

 

[xjmox14x]

Some kit instructions say to primary for 3 days, secondary for 1 week and bottle. Will you make beer that way? Yes. Can you make better beer utilizing different methods and more knowledge. Yes.

But if you read the directions at the HBS and say "Wahoo, I'll have beer in 10 days!" you're probably going to buy that kit over one that has more complicated instructions and takes twice the time.

Edit: discnjh beat me to it. ^what he said.

Then you could also make the argument that in order to make good beer, you'll need to have twice the amount of yeast, therefore increasing their package size and package cost.

Of course, I'm fairly sure this has been thoroughly thought through by each company's marketing department.




"thoroughly thought through"
Holy crap.

 

[ClarnoBrewer]

I had interpreted MrManifesto's comments to mean that the manufacturers are simplifying information, not really trying to rip off the customer.

As previous posters have noted, the instructions that come with yeast are overly simple. They're designed to work easily for any homebrewer. It doesn't necessarily mean that's the optimal way of doing it. I think Gila made the roof analogy, which I agree with. The manufacturer's instructions will almost always work just fine and make decent beer. But I've found that I can make better beer by oxygenating and making a starter. So I do it. And hearing my fermentor bubbling away just a few hours after pitching makes me happy.

Not sure this really makes sense. Sure they want to sell a product. They also want to ensure they KEEP selling their product. Knowingly giving the customer false information that will result in a non-quality product will not serve their company well in the least. Not to mention, this information has zero bearing on the company whatsoever. They're not endorsing another product by saying you must aerate the wort. Whether or not they tell the customer to aerate the wort has zero cost impact on the company one way or the other, so why wouldn't they want to give free, useful, information to the customer to make them satisfied and keep coming back?

 

[Homercidal]

Not sure what to make of this. One says you don't have to, but it wont' hurt, I can't find anything in the documentation of the other either way.

However, Fermentis also says you should not re-use your yeast. ??

Now obviously you can reuse your yeast. I've even heard of breweries using the same yeast for years. The people I've read say that you can safely do at LEAST 4-5 repitches before you need to worry about mutation.

Even on the VERY slim chance that you get a mutated cell, the odds of it reproducing enough to overtake a colony and noticeably affecting your beer is practically zero.

 

[william_shakes_beer]

i'm with ya there, bro! i've been seeing this and another piece of bad info being given to new brewers. the second is that you don't need to make a starter with liquid yeast. i think it's bad for folks to be advising new brewers against proper technique because they can make decent beer without starters and proper aeration.
pitch rates, aeration and fermentation temps are crucial to great beer. i know people make good beer while ignoring these facts, but i think new brewers should be informed that with a few very simple steps, they can make great beer, and not just good beer. big thumbs up to you, MrManifesto! Prost!

My first 5 batches were 1 vial liquid yeast pitched in the primary after proper temp, and they came out fine. No starter. I can offer no commentary on how much "better" they could have been, and I now do starters. But that's just because Revvy says so.

 

[ClarnoBrewer]

However, Fermentis also says you should not re-use your yeast. ??

Now obviously you can reuse your yeast. I've even heard of breweries using the same yeast for years. The people I've read say that you can safely do at LEAST 4-5 repitches before you need to worry about mutation.

Even on the VERY slim chance that you get a mutated cell, the odds of it reproducing enough to overtake a colony and noticeably affecting your beer is practically zero.

Yes, but they do SELL yeast... And even with a slight possibility of mutation or contamination, could they really sleep well at night, knowing that you took this risk instead of buying more from them?

 

[BrewKnurd]

However, Fermentis also says you should not re-use your yeast. ??

Now obviously you can reuse your yeast. I've even heard of breweries using the same yeast for years. The people I've read say that you can safely do at LEAST 4-5 repitches before you need to worry about mutation.

And i've heard that argument made (by Jamil, at least, i feel like i may have heard some of the pro brewers interviewed on the BN mention it as well) that you actually get BETTER results from your yeast on the 3rd or 4th pitch than you do on the first, because by then you have a yeast population that is tuned to operate in optimal beer making mode.

 

[BrewKnurd]

Yes, but they do SELL yeast... And even with a slight possibility of mutation or contamination, could they really sleep well at night, knowing that you took this risk instead of buying more from them?

This is one of the things I like about white labs (not knocking any other yeast companies, not claiming that white labs is the only company that has done this, just the only one i've heard)... chris white was on the sunday session a good while back talking about how to wash and re-use yeast. Even though he has an interest in you buying his product, he's willing to tell you how best to avoid buying his product, if you're so inclined.

 

[william_shakes_beer]

And i've heard that argument made (by Jamil, at least, i feel like i may have heard some of the pro brewers interviewed on the BN mention it as well) that you actually get BETTER results from your yeast on the 3rd or 4th pitch than you do on the first, because by then you have a yeast population that is tuned to operate in optimal beer making mode.

I can understand that if you're operating a commercial brewery that makes exactly the same wort for multiple batches. The colony gets acclimated to a particlular composition of sugars. How many of us brew the same batch repeatedly?

 

[BrewKnurd]

I can understand that if you're operating a commercial brewery that makes exactly the same wort for multiple batches. The colony gets acclimated to a particlular composition of sugars. How many of us brew the same batch repeatedly?

Well, JZ believes it helps from a homebrewing perspective as well, you can take that for whatever its worth, perhaps as little as nothing.

But, even if you're not brewing the same beer over and over again, you have to remember that brewing conditions and yeast propagation conditions are different. So even if you have different beers, those conditions are probably still more similar to each other than they are to yeast propagation conditions. When propagating yeast, the yeast labs don't have any reason to let the yeast ferment all the way out, because the tail end of fermentation does nothing to help yeast numbers or yeast health (which are their only concerns). For instance, wyeast recommends when propagating to move on to the next propagation step at as early as 50% apparent attenuation. When propagating, there are no hops, which can inhibit yeast growth.

 

[wildwest450]

Your love for Jamil is well documented.

 

[MachineShopBrewing]

HaHa. I love threads like this that bring out all the usual HBT flamers. I am surprised Airborneguy hasn't made an appearance. Some people get all bent out of shape over the dumbest stuff. I guess that will happen when you mix ABV and HBT.

Wyeast website also states to pitch lagers at 68-70. Would I do it that way? Nope. I don't have an opinion on the proper way to use dry yeast, as I don't use it, but stating that because the yeast company says you don't NEED to aerate, is not enough for me to prove that it is the BEST way to do it. That's just how I feel. As stated earlier, I wouldn't even think of following kit beer instructions, so instructions in general are suspect in my mind.


Oh, and I love it when people are being brow-beat they always resort to bashing the other person for not being a financial supporter of the forum. haha.

 

[bolshoifish]

but...how? what is the advantage that dry yeast has in this regard that liquid doesn't?

Many single cell organisms, especially ones that lack strong membranes (like yeast) have a defense mechanism where they build a layer of protein/lipid around themselves to help reduce the impact of cold/dryness (otherwise the internal water pressure would cause them to burst for instance). It should come as no surprise that it might use this structure to help propagate when more optimal conditions return. Most microbiology textbooks discuss this in some detail. You might want to start there.

 

[cooper]

For those of you (like me) who need videos and pictures and graphs... Bobby provides.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOrfmzpDmPk]Dry Yeast Experiment - YouTube[/ame]

 

[passedpawn]

HaHa. I love threads like this that bring out all the usual HBT information nazis.

Honestly, look at the thread title and tell me that wasn't some serious bait.

I think the "information nazis" here have tried to add fact to anecdote. This is always a good thing; how can it not be?

I won't discuss the human/emotional side of things. You know, the first person to get emotional loses.

 

[Hermit]

Honestly, look at the thread title and tell me that wasn't some serious bait.

I think the "information nazis" here have tried to add fact to anecdote. This is always a good thing; how can it not be?

I won't discuss the human/emotional side of things. You know, the first person to get emotional loses.

Now you've hurt my feelings.

 

[wildwest450]

Dry Yeast Experiment - YouTube

Boy, do I feel stupid after watching this.

 

[cooper]

Boy, do I feel stupid after watching this.

Just fuel for the fire