The Saison Thread

[viajero]

Florence comes to mind as the one I most recently had, although I've had others in the past that had similar profiles. I didn't plate the dregs or talk to the brewer, but there was no apparent Brett character to my taste and the attenuation was consistent with not having Brett.

interesting...

rwitter can you confirm if Florence has brett in it?

Glad someone asked this, as I always assumed HF saisons were rather marked in their bacterial character. I mean, aren't they conditioning them all in foeders these days? If so, I have a hard time believing clean sacch yeast is the only thing at play in those beers.

FWIW, Florence did taste the "cleanest" of them to me. Florence is actually probably my favorite of their shelf saisons, precisely because it's not excessively tart.

 

[ncaudle]

Glad someone asked this, as I always assumed HF saisons were rather marked in their bacterial character. I mean, aren't they conditioning them all in foeders these days? If so, I have a hard time believing clean sacch yeast is the only thing at play in those beers.

FWIW, Florence did taste the "cleanest" of them to me. Florence is actually probably my favorite of their shelf saisons, precisely because it's not excessively tart.

some batches of Florence are very tart.
to my palate, Dorothy is the most clean saison/farmhouse/farmstead beer they make, and that certainly has brett in it (?maybe not the Table version?)

 

[viajero]

some batches of Florence are very tart.
to my palate, Dorothy is the most clean saison/farmhouse/farmstead beer they make, and that certainly has brett in it (?maybe not the Table version?)

Yeah, I haven't had enough batches of Florence to say -- probably should've qualified by saying, "The ones I've had have been "cleanest"" -- a term I still don't find especially apropos for their saisons.

Last Dorothy I had was definitely Bretty as hell, but it was a while back -- before they got all crazy with the different dry hop variations. Wasn't my cup of tea really, not that it matters.

 

[RochesterAaron1]

Glad someone asked this, as I always assumed HF saisons were rather marked in their bacterial character. I mean, aren't they conditioning them all in foeders these days? If so, I have a hard time believing clean sacch yeast is the only thing at play in those beers.

FWIW, Florence did taste the "cleanest" of them to me. Florence is actually probably my favorite of their shelf saisons, precisely because it's not excessively tart.

I definitely thought they were all seeing time in (presumably the same) oak.

 

[paysse1]

some batches of Florence are very tart.
to my palate, Dorothy is the most clean saison/farmhouse/farmstead beer they make, and that certainly has brett in it (?maybe not the Table version?)

I haven't heard anything about the fermentation process, but Dorothy tasted to me like Brett primary fermentation if memory serves.

 

[thejukes]

I had Dorothy a couple months ago. Unless I'm crazy, it certainly had a light, soft tartness to it. I thought lacto for sure.

 

[tehzachatak]

I definitely thought they were all seeing time in (presumably the same) oak.

As far as I know, they do all touch oak (save one stainless only batch of Florence and also dry hopped Arthur) but some batches of each go in the foeders and some go in the puncheons. The website has been specifically noting this recently.

There was also definitely a recent-ish Florence batch that tasted almost entirely clean at release and took a while to get tart. 11/2014, I think.. But it's very tart now.

 

[paysse1]

There was also definitely a recent-ish Florence batch that tasted almost entirely clean at release and took a while to get tart. 11/2014, I think.. But it's very tart now.

Three things.

1. Just dug up the dusty bottle and it was the 11/14 batch that I had last.
2. I believe the oak treatment and the culture used in those beers has changed over time. I don't live in the NE and I don't trade so my access to HF beers is very spotty. I found notes on having Anna, Flora, and Florence in 2012 and don't remember Anna or Florence having anything but a clean/sacch fermentation character.
3. This is fun, but a diversion that sort of takes away from the point I was trying to make, which is that the classic 2nd wave saisons made without brett or bacteria are very hard to brew well, but they are phenomenal beers in their own right that tend to fly under the radar a bit.

 

[The Red Viper]

Speaking of good saisons with brett or bacteria, I had Barrel of Monks Nuance last night and it was pretty damn solid. I would like some more hops but for a clean saison from an American brewery, the fermentation profile was impressive.

 

[viajero]

Three things.

1. Just dug up the dusty bottle and it was the 11/14 batch that I had last.
2. I believe the oak treatment and the culture used in those beers has changed over time. I don't live in the NE and I don't trade so my access to HF beers is very spotty. I found notes on having Anna, Flora, and Florence in 2012 and don't remember Anna or Florence having anything but a clean/sacch fermentation character.
3. This is fun, but a diversion that sort of takes away from the point I was trying to make, which is that the classic 2nd wave saisons made without brett or bacteria are very hard to brew well, but they are phenomenal beers in their own right that tend to fly under the radar a bit.

I don't mean to take away from that point -- it's a good one -- but I think the murmurs here are that using HF as an example of the point may not be especially apropos. When I think of clean saisons, I DON'T think of HF, for the reasons mentioned above -- implied presence of bacteria vis a vis tartness, time spent in oak, etc.

As for clean saisons, I'll drink Apex Predator every day and Sunday.

 

[bsc]

99.9% sure all HF saisons are mixed ferments.

They taste much, much different at release than 6 months down the line.
This was especially true 2+ years ago before they acquired the foeders.

 

[tehzachatak]

Three things.

1. Just dug up the dusty bottle and it was the 11/14 batch that I had last.
2. I believe the oak treatment and the culture used in those beers has changed over time. I don't live in the NE and I don't trade so my access to HF beers is very spotty. I found notes on having Anna, Flora, and Florence in 2012 and don't remember Anna or Florence having anything but a clean/sacch fermentation character.
3. This is fun, but a diversion that sort of takes away from the point I was trying to make, which is that the classic 2nd wave saisons made without brett or bacteria are very hard to brew well, but they are phenomenal beers in their own right that tend to fly under the radar a bit.

Apologies for the diversion. I fully agree with point 3 - there are barely any of these beers that I enjoy, but the ones I enjoy, I REALLY enjoy (Dupont/Classique/Thirez beers being the only ones I can think of - I didn't really enjoy Apex Predator when I had it, perhaps time to try it again).

 

[paysse1]

Apologies for the diversion. I fully agree with point 3 - there are barely any of these beers that I enjoy, but the ones I enjoy, I REALLY enjoy (Dupont/Classique/Thirez beers being the only ones I can think of - I didn't really enjoy Apex Predator when I had it, perhaps time to try it again).

No sweat, not trying to bust balls. It sounds like my HF reference was off base. That's my bad. There are very few American clean saisons on par with the Belgian examples... it's also poor form to make a generalization based on a brewery like HF who make dynamic, evolving, and varied beers. Most of the HF saisons I formed my opinion on I had in and around 2012, only had maybe 5-6 since then, a few of which seemed very clean (Florence, Anna) and a few of which were clearly mixed culture (Clara, ...).

All that said, I love this thread.

 

[drgarage1]

No sweat, not trying to bust balls. It sounds like my HF reference was off base. That's my bad. There are very few American clean saisons on par with the Belgian examples... it's also poor form to make a generalization based on a brewery like HF who make dynamic, evolving, and varied beers. Most of the HF saisons I formed my opinion on I had in and around 2012, only had maybe 5-6 since then, a few of which seemed very clean (Florence, Anna) and a few of which were clearly mixed culture (Clara, ...).

All that said, I love this thread.

And let's all agree that bad clean saisons, like Stone's or Anchor's, are abominations.

 

[paysse1]

And let's all agree that bad clean saisons, like Stone's or Anchor's, are abominations.

Preach the word.

 

[tehzachatak]

And let's all agree that bad clean saisons, like Stone's or Anchor's, are abominations.

Some of the worst beers out there.

 

[thejukes]

And let's all agree that bad clean saisons, like Stone's or Anchor's, are abominations.

You don't like chewing bubble gum while you drink a blonde ale?

 

[Thorpe]

No sweat, not trying to bust balls. It sounds like my HF reference was off base. That's my bad. There are very few American clean saisons on par with the Belgian examples... it's also poor form to make a generalization based on a brewery like HF who make dynamic, evolving, and varied beers. Most of the HF saisons I formed my opinion on I had in and around 2012, only had maybe 5-6 since then, a few of which seemed very clean (Florence, Anna) and a few of which were clearly mixed culture (Clara, ...).

All that said, I love this thread.

Totally agree on the American clean saisons. So hard to find really good ones that are close to the Belgian examples. While I love Apex Predator, many of the formerly-clean Tired Hands saisons, and the new Pipeworks War Bird, these undeniably have the twist of a fairly-heavy usage of American hops.

In terms of clean and bitter, I love Classique and Upright Four (it's been a long time since I've been able to find that fresh, though).

I will also say that whatever category you want to put it in, Bam Biere doesn't get nearly enough love. One of the best beers in the world, IMO. Just a hint of tartness along with a nice bitter bite when young, and then evolving into a whole different type of goodness as it ages.

 

[cneville1]

I will also say that whatever category you want to put it in, Bam Biere doesn't get nearly enough love. One of the best beers in the world, IMO. Just a hint of tartness along with a nice bitter bite when young, and then evolving into a whole different type of goodness as it ages.

preach!

 

[Evahflow]

Totally agree on the American clean saisons. So hard to find really good ones that are close to the Belgian examples. While I love Apex Predator, many of the formerly-clean Tired Hands saisons, and the new Pipeworks War Bird, these undeniably have the twist of a fairly-heavy usage of American hops.

In terms of clean and bitter, I love Classique and Upright Four (it's been a long time since I've been able to find that fresh, though).

I will also say that whatever category you want to put it in, Bam Biere doesn't get nearly enough love. One of the best beers in the world, IMO. Just a hint of tartness along with a nice bitter bite when young, and then evolving into a whole different type of goodness as it ages.

I don't think any of Tired Hands saisons have really been clean ever. Most of them just came out really young. Before they had the foeders and time to age a lot of them they would progress in the keg if they stayed around more than a few weeks. Pretty sure all had/have Brett and LAB. Totally agree on Bam Biere and Classique.

 

[paysse1]

I will also say that whatever category you want to put it in, Bam Biere doesn't get nearly enough love. One of the best beers in the world, IMO. Just a hint of tartness along with a nice bitter bite when young, and then evolving into a whole different type of goodness as it ages.

This x1000. Bam Biere is phenomenal, and the way it and the other JP beers age is magical.

 

[Thorpe]

I don't think any of Tired Hands saisons have really been clean ever. Most of them just came out really young. Before they had the foeders and time to age a lot of them they would progress in the keg if they stayed around more than a few weeks. Pretty sure all had/have Brett and LAB. Totally agree on Bam Biere and Classique.

We used to go up there all the time around when it first opened (when I lived outside of DC) and I don't recall FarmHands/SaisonHands ever really having much of a Brett character. Definitely plenty of hop character. Could see maybe some Brett adding a bit of fruit, but I always got hop fruitiness rather than Brett fruitiness. Otherwise, the bottled stuff has always had Brett and/or LAB for sure.

 

[ncaudle]

We used to go up there all the time around when it first opened (when I lived outside of DC) and I don't recall FarmHands/SaisonHands ever really having much of a Brett character. Definitely plenty of hop character. Could see maybe some Brett adding a bit of fruit, but I always got hop fruitiness rather than Brett fruitiness. Otherwise, the bottled stuff has always had Brett and/or LAB for sure.

yeah, I thought Handfarm was the brett'd version of Farmhands/Saisonhands

 

[Respirologist]

What are everyones thoughts on Peche N' Brett ?

 

[MooseLang]

What are everyones thoughts on Peche N' Brett ?

Insert Michael Scott "I LOOOVVVEEEE ITTTTT" gif here.

 

[Gonzoillini1]

What are everyones thoughts on Peche N' Brett ?

I thought the first batch I had of it was really good, but every batch since has been somewhat disappointing. Not sure what happened, if they reduced the amount of fruit, increased the turnaround time, etc..., but not my cup of tea recently.

 

[tosh1]

What are everyones thoughts on Peche N' Brett ?

I grabbed a bottle or two yesterday. wondering if the changes at Logdson recently will have had any affect on how it came out this year

 

[Respirologist]

I grabbed a bottle or two yesterday. wondering if the changes at Logdson recently will have had any affect on how it came out this year

Ya I grabbed a few bottles hoping it lives up to it's reputation

 

[tosh1]

Ya I grabbed a few bottles hoping it lives up to it's reputation

I have really enjoyed previous batches, both fresh and with a little age on them (up to about a year).

 

[jupiter6xx]

What are everyones thoughts on Peche N' Brett ?

Just drank this 2014 bottle and thought it was fantastic. Tastes like tart, musty peaches (fruit is holding strong in it) in the best possible way. Sad it's my last & I don't have any 2015 to compare it to. Wonderful beer.