The Saison Thread

[Aaron from the Wood]

Buckwheat, oats, and rye fermented with Brettanomyces and a Saison yeast in a 50 hectoliter french oak cask. Herbs and spices grown here at the brewery replaced most of the hops. On it's way into package it was treated to a host of microflora to create additional character over time.

This one has been in my cellar since late 2011 / early 2012, and at this point it is reminiscent of a cross between a Gruit and a rustic saison. Still one of the better things I've ever had from Cisco.

The only good beers I've had from Cisco are their Woods series, so this intrigues me! Doesn't look like they've made it since then, though.

 

[Gonzoillini1]

The only good beers I've had from Cisco are their Woods series, so this intrigues me! Doesn't look like they've made it since then, though.

It's one of those things that I enjoyed fresh and bought 3 or 4 of them, and have been slowly enjoying them over the past few years. lactic tart and very dry with a weird earthiness from the herbs they used (which I'd be curious to know).

I'm sure someone out there still has this hanging around their cellar as well.

 

[Farnsworth]

It's one of those things that I enjoyed fresh and bought 3 or 4 of them, and have been slowly enjoying them over the past few years. lactic tart and very dry with a weird earthiness from the herbs they used (which I'd be curious to know).

I'm sure someone out there still has this hanging around their cellar as well.

I did the same thing, and actually managed to find a few more turding it up about a year ago.
Down to my last one, but each one has been amazing!

Fingers crossed that they brew it again, but given the poor reception from most people its probably doubtful...

 

[MooseLang]

I get this beer on tap at Max's Belgian Fest every year, and it is always fresh, bright, and amazing. Every bottle I order is always old and disappointing. That won't stop me from hoping I get lucky with a fresh bottle eventually.

 

[JRBecks]

Not Bad

 

[Treebs]

Not Bad

I was about to pick this up, looked at the $11 price tag and just bought a 4 pack of Apex Pred instead. The general vibe I got from people was this was just OK so it seems like I made the right decision.

 

[iong516]

Love these, thanks shelf_turd_ferguson

Went well with Indian food

 

[stakem1]

I dont have pictures but just wanted to comment that last night I drank my first Jester King brews in a very long time and I was floored.

I wanted to drink just 2 or 3 but ended up drinking all 5:
foudreweizen - holy **** good
kollaborationsbier
wunderkind - fantastic
biere de miel - great honey character without any residual sweetness
dichotomous ? - this was the oddest of the bunch but i was super impressed with how the melon flavors shined through

in a time where im not interested in acquiring more beer, i would have ZERO hesitation trading with anyone who is offering me more Jester King

 

[iong516]

Yea that **** balls hard.

 

[PurityControl88]

Just a really dialed in saison. Great citrus notes with moderate yeast esters and phenols. Very dry and effervescent. Solid work here.

 

[ExPimp]

I dont have pictures but just wanted to comment that last night I drank my first Jester King brews in a very long time and I was floored.

I wanted to drink just 2 or 3 but ended up drinking all 5:
foudreweizen - holy **** good
kollaborationsbier
wunderkind - fantastic
biere de miel - great honey character without any residual sweetness
dichotomous ? - this was the oddest of the bunch but i was super impressed with how the melon flavors shined through

in a time where im not interested in acquiring more beer, i would have ZERO hesitation trading with anyone who is offering me more Jester King

If you need/want anything, drop a line. A few of those beers are on shelves right now and sometimes I can make it out on the weekend when my wife hasn't claimed my free time.

 

[tylerk88]

This one surprised me by really exceeding my expectations. Light, a bit grassy, very refreshing. Another killer extra in a SP trade!

 

[Dpaquet]

Just a really dialed in saison. Great citrus notes with moderate yeast esters and phenols. Very dry and effervescent. Solid work here.

Pretty much my "go to" saison. Available at almost every store here and it's pretty cheep to. 6$ for a 600ml

 

[PurityControl88]

Pretty much my "go to" saison. Available at almost every store here and it's pretty cheep to. 6$ for a 600ml

That's a hell of a price and tough to beat!

 

[Gestalten]

On Dupont, I talked with others outside of this thread, and I believe several sources (including Yvan's section in Farmhouse Ales) indicate that Dupont's primary fermentation incorporates a "wild" strain, though it's unclear whether this is Brettanomyces, a "wild" strain of Saccharomyces Cerevisiae, or a non-Cerevisiae Saccharomyces species.

Apologies if this has been answered already, but for the curious...

Besides being extraordinarily expressive in terms of aroma and flavor production, the Dupont yeast is highly attenuative and is said (by some) to be a multi-strain culture comprised of at least four different organisms, all of the Saccharomyces genus (at least one strain is thought to have originally been a wild yeast), according to Olivier Dedeycker, brewmaster at Brasserie Dupont. Chris White of White Labs, whose laboratory has observed more than one distinct culture, supports that suggestion. However, after isolating these cultures they have identified one strain that seems to be dominant in exhibiting the characteristic Dupont aromatics. Les Perkins, quality control manager at Wyeast Labs, states that in examining the dregs from bottles of Saison Vieille Provision they have found only single cell morphology indicative of a single yeast culture. (The jury is still out on this issue. Both White Labs and Wyeast labs market a single cell version of this yeast strain that in the author’s experience will produce comparable complexity to results obtained from manually culturing the yeast from the dregs of a bottle of Saison Vieille Provision. Perhaps Dedeycker’s “four strain” claim is genuine but it would seem to pose a formidable challenge to maintain a consistent balance of these four strains of culture and wild yeast in both a lab and practical brewery environment.)

TL;DR: Likely no wild yeast involved at this point.

 

[PurityControl88]

http://allaboutbeer.com/belgian-warm-rooms/
Really interesting article here about storing bottles on their side vs upright for bottle conditioning.
"After bottling, Dupont’s beer doesn’t just go to the warm room. First, each bottle must be laid on its side. Why? Master brewer Olivier DeDeycker explained it. “It’s mostly important for us to initiate secondary fermentation in this way. If we start the secondary fermentation like so [he made the gesture of an upright bottle], we have a totally different beer. The yeast multiplies very differently. We made different trials, and the conclusion was that we need to continue like this.” Yeast is a living ingredient, and it behaves differently in different environments. Upright bottles sent to the warm room made listless saisons, he told me."
Might try setting some of the most recent batch of Ete on it's side to encourage some additional "secondary fermentation."

 

[Gestalten]

http://allaboutbeer.com/belgian-warm-rooms/
Really interesting article here about storing bottles on their side vs upright for bottle conditioning.
"After bottling, Dupont’s beer doesn’t just go to the warm room. First, each bottle must be laid on its side. Why? Master brewer Olivier DeDeycker explained it. “It’s mostly important for us to initiate secondary fermentation in this way. If we start the secondary fermentation like so [he made the gesture of an upright bottle], we have a totally different beer. The yeast multiplies very differently. We made different trials, and the conclusion was that we need to continue like this.” Yeast is a living ingredient, and it behaves differently in different environments. Upright bottles sent to the warm room made listless saisons, he told me."
Might try setting some of the most recent batch of Ete on it's side to encourage some additional "secondary fermentation."

That's in keeping with the general idea that cylindroconical fermenters make inferior saisons. Fermentation dynamics change due to the shape of the liquid mass. Yvan has talked about it at length elsewhere. That's why you see those crazy "flying saucer" fermenters at DuPont. I wouldn't be surprised if the same conditions were at play.

 

[Thorpe]

Apologies if this has been answered already, but for the curious...

TL;DR: Likely no wild yeast involved at this point.

That's the quote from Farmhouse Ales, right? That means the quote is over 10 years old at this point, and the more-recent information seems to suggest that there is certainly more than a single yeast involved. (The quote itself says that the jury is still out, so certainly not the final story.)

 

[Gestalten]

That's the quote from Farmhouse Ales, right? That means the quote is over 10 years old at this point, and the more-recent information seems to suggest that there is certainly more than a single yeast involved. (The quote itself says that the jury is still out, so certainly not the final story.)

I never said it was definitive. People asked about what was said in Farmhouse Ales, so I quoted it.
As for recent findings, dazzle me...

 

[drgarage1]

I never said it was definitive. People asked about what was said in Farmhouse Ales, so I quoted it.
As for recent findings, dazzle me...

As to weaker modern saisons, other than stuff getting labeled grisette, I don't know of many. De La Senne has certainly made some low-alcohol beers that would qualify other than their lack of brett and/or bacteria. Band of Brothers, Meyboom, even Taras Boulba, arguably. Which should come as no surprise, given Yvan's involvement.

 

[Gus13]

I dont have pictures but just wanted to comment that last night I drank my first Jester King brews in a very long time and I was floored.

I wanted to drink just 2 or 3 but ended up drinking all 5:
foudreweizen - holy **** good
kollaborationsbier
wunderkind - fantastic
biere de miel - great honey character without any residual sweetness
dichotomous ? - this was the oddest of the bunch but i was super impressed with how the melon flavors shined through

in a time where im not interested in acquiring more beer, i would have ZERO hesitation trading with anyone who is offering me more Jester King

Fouderweizen and Kollaborationsbier were both great.

I haven't had Wunderkind in quite some time but it is by farm my favorite Saison/Farmhouse beer of all time.

Biere de Miel is outstanding as well. I've had a couple batches now and each one has been great.

All of the Dichotomous beers are oustanding in their own way. The best one I've had was 2015 Vernal Dichotomous. I could have drank gallons of that. I really need to brew something similar.

I wish I was able to get them as often as used to. Dropping out of the clubs I was in and focusing on homebrewing has really lowered my trading.

 

[PHBoiler]

Much sadness that Enlightenment is no longer around. Had Verdance last night. That Grisette is every bit as good as Side Project or Clara. Perfect carb. Bright and crisp.

Little Lobster on the Prairie was similarly delicious with a green apple tartness, lovely carb, and clean body. It was a defunct brewery showdown.

 

[ncaudle]

Much sadness that Enlightenment is no longer around. Had Verdance last night. That Grisette is every bit as good as Side Project or Clara. Perfect carb. Bright and crisp.

Little Lobster on the Prairie was similarly delicious with a green apple tartness, lovely carb, and clean body. It was a defunct brewery showdown.

Enlightenment from Boston?
I thought they were still brewing at Idle Hands after the merger, but as Idle Hands now has to move buildings things are on a hiatus?

 

[The Red Viper]

Much sadness that Enlightenment is no longer around. Had Verdance last night. That Grisette is every bit as good as Side Project or Clara. Perfect carb. Bright and crisp.

Little Lobster on the Prairie was similarly delicious with a green apple tartness, lovely carb, and clean body. It was a defunct brewery showdown.

Enlightenment from Boston?
I thought they were still brewing at Idle Hands after the merger, but as Idle Hands now has to move buildings things are on a hiatus?

Verdance is *amazing*. As good as any beer I've had from HF including rarities.

Brewer from Enlightenment is on sabbatical for a year of travel around Europe or something like that. I don't know the exact story but he's not brewing right now. Whether the idea is to pick back up when he's back in MA, I don't know. My brother is a grad student in Boston and is friends with Enlightenment brewer from back when he (brewer) was a bartender at CBC.

 

[Gonzoillini1]

Little Lobster on the Prairie was similarly delicious with a green apple tartness, lovely carb, and clean body. It was a defunct brewery showdown.

Luckily sleepydave opened up Decidious Brewing and rumor has it that a similar beer to Little Lobster on the Prairie might be on the horizon...

 

[Gus13]

Drinking really nice. Had this while baking some bread yesterday.

 

[Thorpe]

I never said it was definitive. People asked about what was said in Farmhouse Ales, so I quoted it.
As for recent findings, dazzle me...

Here's the link to the discussion in the Saison Facebook group from not too long ago with some additional info from someone from the importer.

https:// www.facebook.com/groups/1517563441866109/permalink/1556556221300164/

EDIT: Link is auto-formatting and becoming unavailable when pasted. The current link should work.

 

[Gestalten]

Here's the link to the discussion in the Saison Facebook group from not too long ago with some additional info from someone from the importer.

https:// www.facebook.com/groups/1517563441866109/permalink/1556556221300164/

EDIT: Link is auto-formatting and becoming unavailable when pasted. The current link should work.

Thanks. Looks like I have to wait to get approved tho... :/

Edit: In now. This isn't really confirmation of anything, just one guy saying he knows for sure there's wild yeast. Hardly the last word (or even much to be taken seriously). Am I missing something? And even if he's right, there's no wild yeast in the bottle, so further development by Brett is out of the question.

 

[Thorpe]

Thanks. Looks like I have to wait to get approved tho... :/

Edit: In now. This isn't really confirmation of anything, just one guy saying he knows for sure there's wild yeast. Hardly the last word (or even much to be taken seriously). Am I missing something? And even if he's right, there's no wild yeast in the bottle, so further development by Brett is out of the question.

Good that you got approved quickly. It's a great group. Good mixture of homebrew, commercial breweries, tasting notes, etc.

The person who posted the replies provided a lot of helpful Dupont information to the group aside from those comments, so I think his comments there are certainly fairly credible.

And I agree that there's no development by Brett. I didn't think that was in question. And I don't think (m)any outside the brewery really know if there is Brett in primary or whether the "wild yeast" is something like Brett, a wild strain of Sacch, or something else entirely. However, based on everything that I've seen over the past few years, I don't think Saison Dupont is primary fermented solely by a single strain of Sacch. C.

Whatever is used, I think most (if not all) of us can agree that it tastes amazing! Luckily we have it on tap in the basement, so I think I'm going to go grab a glass

 

[drgarage1]

Good that you got approved quickly. It's a great group. Good mixture of homebrew, commercial breweries, tasting notes, etc.

The person who posted the replies provided a lot of helpful Dupont information to the group aside from those comments, so I think his comments there are certainly fairly credible.

And I agree that there's no development by Brett. I didn't think that was in question. And I don't think (m)any outside the brewery really know if there is Brett in primary or whether the "wild yeast" is something like Brett, a wild strain of Sacch, or something else entirely. However, based on everything that I've seen over the past few years, I don't think Saison Dupont is primary fermented solely by a single strain of Sacch. C.

Whatever is used, I think most (if not all) of us can agree that it tastes amazing! Luckily we have it on tap in the basement, so I think I'm going to go grab a glass

Opened a Dec. 2014 Avec last night, and it had no trace of what I tasted as brett contribution in other vintages. It was delicious, but definitely different from 2013 and some others I've had. I also have an 06 bottle I'll open with a friend's 08 at some point, so can report back as/when that happens.