The Poo discussion

[slnies]

So, here it is. The other night I was having a talk with a friend over many a beer, and he being very left wing starts to enumerate on the fine properties of whole or organic gardening. This is in relation to hops.
He likes POO. I to like the Poo for my hops too, as they seem to grow like weeds on the stuff. But my question is this, is poo really organic? It may have come from a genetically modified animal. In effect wouldn't this then mean the Poo could be modified as well? It seems that when a chicken is feed genetically modified grains, it is no longer organic. Would the same hold true for Hops?

 

[Buckhuntr]

You're thinking too much. Have another ale and don't think.

 

[SchizoFilly]

Let me see if I'm following you here. The hypothesis I'm seeing is this: If one consumes a genetically altered substance, be it a chicken fed a laboratory developed hybrid grain that will later be consumed by a human, or a human consuming a chicken injected with growth hormone, then the excrement created as a by-product of the consumption of either chicken would no longer be organic matter but some genetically mutated sludge?

 

[slnies]

Let me see if I'm following you here. The hypothesis I'm seeing is this: If one consumes a genetically altered substance, be it a chicken fed a laboratory developed hybrid grain that will later be consumed by a human, or a human consuming a chicken injected with growth hormone, then the excrement created as a by-product of the consumption of either chicken would no longer be organic matter but some genetically mutated sludge?

That was the arguement. You would think that POO is POO. Now what if the food was organic and the animal was the genetic modification?

 

[Neunelfer]

Maybe they sell Organic poo. :shrug

 

[conpewter]

Well if you take a genetically modified grain, process it through a chicken does that make it organic?

 

[Evan!]

With all the crap everyone and everything ingests over their lifetime, there's no such thing as "pure organic" anything. Even if the cow is in a pristine field and eats nothing but grass, that grass gets pollutants on it, and the cow breathes in pollutants from the air, etc. So it's about levels of relative purity. Surely, poo from a free-range animal in a field is going to be "more organic" than one in a chicken factory that has been injected with all kinds of growth chemicals, etc. IOW, "organic" is a relative term.

 

[Neunelfer]

Well if you take a genetically modified grain, process it through a chicken does that make it organic?

Nope.

With all the crap everyone and everything ingests over their lifetime, there's no such thing as "pure organic" anything. Even if the cow is in a pristine field and eats nothing but grass, that grass gets pollutants on it, and the cow breathes in pollutants from the air, etc. So it's about levels of relative purity. Surely, poo from a free-range animal in a field is going to be "more organic" than one in a chicken factory that has been injected with all kinds of growth chemicals, etc. IOW, "organic" is a relative term.

We have the big farmers peeing in the pool to thank for that one.

 

[SchizoFilly]

We have the big farmers peeing in the pool to thank for that one.

I'm all for the farmer, it's not easy to turn a profit from farming unless you are huge and use every advantage you can find, pollution be damned.

At what point can something be reintroduced as organic? If you fertilize your hops with "non-organic" poo, like is suggested by OP, are the hops organic? If you use what is left of the hops as compost, is that compost organic? Is the produce that is grown using that compost organic? At what point in this chain could the levels of non-organic matter be diminished to a point where the product could be considered organic again?

....and why am I sober for this discussion?

 

[slnies]

....and why am I sober for this discussion?

I don't know! But, I am not yet sober from when I started it.:rockin:

 

[slnies]

Back to the Poo.... I think that Evan makes a good point. Can anything really be organic? If not than why delude ourselves by calling it that. I use Poo because it is cheap, and it works great. I would use chemicals in a heartbeat if 1. they were getting any cheaper, or 2. they were going to improve my harvest enough to justify the cost and 3. I don't have a three. I was just on a roll and could not stop myself.

 

[SchizoFilly]

well, if you take the approach that anything that can be directly or indirectly linked to any other non-organic substance is not itself organic, then NO nothing can be organic. I'm not sure if a line exists there or where it is if it does exist.

..........I still need a beer.

 

[slnies]

well, if you take the approach that anything that can be directly or indirectly linked to any other non-organic substance is not itself organic, then NO nothing can be organic. I'm not sure if a line exists there or where it is if it does exist.

..........I still need a beer.

You better take care of that beer issue.

I think that you could filter out impurity in an organic sense, but organic as it is defined right now. I not sure that it exists outside of a controlled green house or lab environment. Shouldn't foods that are currently labeled organic really be labeled "Pure Mostly" It would be more accurate, wouldn't it. That was to quote a huge liberal. I have to go drink a beer now and sterilize my mouth.

 

[Buford]

Water and CO2 are inorganic compounds, try growing anything with neither available or excreted by a living organism. IF YOU USE WATER IT ISN'T "ORGANIC"!

See what I did there :fro:

 

[slnies]

Water and CO2 are inorganic compounds, try growing anything with neither available or excreted by a living organism. IF YOU USE WATER IT ISN'T "ORGANIC"!

See what I did there :fro:

But they are also naturally occurring compounds. I would also wager that naturally occurring water is not pure. As it will always contain trace elements and in some cases massive amounts of bio-organisms. CO2 by a chemists definition is organic as it contains carbon. That said, than so are all of the chemicals that we use to fertilize and debug our gardens. But, there in lies the rub. Since "organic" means carbon based. then why do we call food that is grown without the help of modern day chemistry, organic? When all of our food by definition is organic, wether we use chemicals to grow them or not. So by a chemists definition of organic than POO is it, but than so to is the bag of Miracle Grow, or that bottle of Round Up we us to make the garden a nicer place for our hops.

I do however like where you were going with that.

 

[SchizoFilly]

............again.....I'm sober during this....T-minus 2 hours until drinking can commence......


I like the idea of the in-organic water, and if you stick with that theme, there are pollutants in the air that, while naturally occurring, can be argued to exist in larger quantities due to human existence and thereby anything that has ever been in contact with the Earth's atmosphere cannot be labeled as organic.

 

[StoutFan]

What about well water? That has not come in contact with the atmosphere, till the tap. So, in an engineers vacuum, only water created from H and O, could be used? You can't raise any animal in a vacuum to produce said poo. What about an air filter?

 

[Duckfoot]

I thought this was about people discussing bowel movements....

 

[Fingers]

So if a chicken eats modified and grain poops out modified poop and is no longer considered organic, then can we consider eating chicken the same as eating whole grains in the same way we consider eating beef the same as eating vegetables?

I think I'm having another paradigm shift. It's going to be a good summer.

 

[slnies]

So if a chicken eats modified and grain poops out modified poop and is no longer considered organic, then can we consider eating chicken the same as eating whole grains in the same way we consider eating beef the same as eating vegetables?

I think I'm having another paradigm shift. It's going to be a good summer.

As far as I'm concerned, absa-frigging-lutely.

 

[slnies]

I thought this was about people discussing bowel movements....

My bowls moved, a few times last night. Dam tacos!

 

[SchizoFilly]

What about well water? That has not come in contact with the atmosphere, till the tap. So, in an engineers vacuum, only water created from H and O, could be used? You can't raise any animal in a vacuum to produce said poo. What about an air filter?

Well, no the well water would not work as possible contaminates could have leached into the ground water thereby rendering the well water contaminated or otherwise non-organic.

So if a chicken eats modified and grain poops out modified poop and is no longer considered organic, then can we consider eating chicken the same as eating whole grains in the same way we consider eating beef the same as eating vegetables?

I think I'm having another paradigm shift. It's going to be a good summer.

I think you're onto something. All of a sudden my breakfast become so much more healthy because it was full of whole grains because if a chicken is whole grain then eggs must be whole grain, and if beef is a vegetable then cheese much also be a vegetable as they are a product from the beef bearing animal. This leads to a whole other level of rationalization that I hadn't considered before. Thank You.


I think this whole discussion may have unraveled the virtues of the organic fad. Sure you can get an item that has a lower concentration of chemical treatment, but you cannot get anything that is truly 100% organic.

 

[Neunelfer]

I think you're onto something. All of a sudden my breakfast become so much more healthy because it was full of whole grains because if a chicken is whole grain then eggs must be whole grain, and if beef is a vegetable then cheese much also be a vegetable as they are a product from the beef bearing animal. This leads to a whole other level of rationalization that I hadn't considered before. Thank You.

I tried that logic on my girlfriend the other night when she complained I didn't have any vegetables with my steak. "The cow ate vegetables before he died, that's good enough for me". It didn't work.

 

[SchizoFilly]

obviously she missed this discussion about POO

 

[Buford]

CO2 by a chemists definition is organic as it contains carbon.

I was always told that CO2 was inorganic despite the carbon as it does not contain an H atom.

 

[SchizoFilly]

I was always told that CO2 was inorganic despite the carbon as it does not contain an H atom.

To get pure CO2 one would have to obtain it through unnatural means, which leads us back to it not being organic. Not that the definitions of this thread are binding, but you know, just sticking with the fuzzy logic contained within.:cross:

 

[Laurel]

So.... pooing on your hops is bad for them. There is a certain (extreme) sect of the composting "community" that compost human and pet waste, and the general consensus is that it has to be composted for AT LEAST 2 years to be safe to grow consumable crops in.

 

[SchizoFilly]

So.... pooing on your hops is bad for them.

Well in the context of this thread it seems that if you poo on your hops they would no longer be "organic". Although, I think it may have also been taken to the point that nothing could ever be organic again.

 

[slnies]

I was always told that CO2 was inorganic despite the carbon as it does not contain an H atom.

You could be right, but if you ad a H atom than you have a hydrocarbon, also organic.

 

[slnies]

Well in the context of this thread it seems that if you poo on your hops they would no longer be "organic". Although, I think it may have also been taken to the point that nothing could ever be organic again.

you are correct sur!

The point being that with the organic craze abounding in our society, we should really ask our selves how much we are willing to pay, how far we are willing to go, and how much common sense will are willing to throw out the window for a limited return on what we perceive as purity in our foods? I dislike the term organic because it deludes people and it can mean so many other things in the context of our society. I am not saying that we should use tons of chemicals, our that we shouldn't return to more sustaining agriculture, but we should call it what it is " pure mostly". When most people see the word organic they equate that to pure. That is just not true. It may be more pure, but in what sense? Chemically, genetically, what? Even a heirloom plant has seen genetic modification. This is a plant that is suppose to be genetically pure. It can't help but be modified as soon as it is planted and flowers because the bee that pollinates it was sucking down the goods from a genetically modified version down the road. The seeds of the said plant will be genetic hybreds. Is this such a bad thing? I think not. Diversity is the key to insuring survival. So than why call a method, a product, or a plant organic?