The Poo discussion

[slnies]

So, here it is. The other night I was having a talk with a friend over many a beer, and he being very left wing starts to enumerate on the fine properties of whole or organic gardening. This is in relation to hops.
He likes POO. I to like the Poo for my hops too, as they seem to grow like weeds on the stuff. But my question is this, is poo really organic? It may have come from a genetically modified animal. In effect wouldn't this then mean the Poo could be modified as well? It seems that when a chicken is feed genetically modified grains, it is no longer organic. Would the same hold true for Hops?

 

[Buckhuntr]

You're thinking too much. Have another ale and don't think.

 

[SchizoFilly]

Let me see if I'm following you here. The hypothesis I'm seeing is this: If one consumes a genetically altered substance, be it a chicken fed a laboratory developed hybrid grain that will later be consumed by a human, or a human consuming a chicken injected with growth hormone, then the excrement created as a by-product of the consumption of either chicken would no longer be organic matter but some genetically mutated sludge?

 

[slnies]

Let me see if I'm following you here. The hypothesis I'm seeing is this: If one consumes a genetically altered substance, be it a chicken fed a laboratory developed hybrid grain that will later be consumed by a human, or a human consuming a chicken injected with growth hormone, then the excrement created as a by-product of the consumption of either chicken would no longer be organic matter but some genetically mutated sludge?

That was the arguement. You would think that POO is POO. Now what if the food was organic and the animal was the genetic modification?

 

[Neunelfer]

Maybe they sell Organic poo. :shrug

 

[conpewter]

Well if you take a genetically modified grain, process it through a chicken does that make it organic?

 

[Evan!]

With all the crap everyone and everything ingests over their lifetime, there's no such thing as "pure organic" anything. Even if the cow is in a pristine field and eats nothing but grass, that grass gets pollutants on it, and the cow breathes in pollutants from the air, etc. So it's about levels of relative purity. Surely, poo from a free-range animal in a field is going to be "more organic" than one in a chicken factory that has been injected with all kinds of growth chemicals, etc. IOW, "organic" is a relative term.

 

[Neunelfer]

Well if you take a genetically modified grain, process it through a chicken does that make it organic?

Nope.

With all the crap everyone and everything ingests over their lifetime, there's no such thing as "pure organic" anything. Even if the cow is in a pristine field and eats nothing but grass, that grass gets pollutants on it, and the cow breathes in pollutants from the air, etc. So it's about levels of relative purity. Surely, poo from a free-range animal in a field is going to be "more organic" than one in a chicken factory that has been injected with all kinds of growth chemicals, etc. IOW, "organic" is a relative term.

We have the big farmers peeing in the pool to thank for that one.

 

[SchizoFilly]

We have the big farmers peeing in the pool to thank for that one.

I'm all for the farmer, it's not easy to turn a profit from farming unless you are huge and use every advantage you can find, pollution be damned.

At what point can something be reintroduced as organic? If you fertilize your hops with "non-organic" poo, like is suggested by OP, are the hops organic? If you use what is left of the hops as compost, is that compost organic? Is the produce that is grown using that compost organic? At what point in this chain could the levels of non-organic matter be diminished to a point where the product could be considered organic again?

....and why am I sober for this discussion?

 

[slnies]

....and why am I sober for this discussion?

I don't know! But, I am not yet sober from when I started it.:rockin:

 

[slnies]

Back to the Poo.... I think that Evan makes a good point. Can anything really be organic? If not than why delude ourselves by calling it that. I use Poo because it is cheap, and it works great. I would use chemicals in a heartbeat if 1. they were getting any cheaper, or 2. they were going to improve my harvest enough to justify the cost and 3. I don't have a three. I was just on a roll and could not stop myself.

 

[SchizoFilly]

well, if you take the approach that anything that can be directly or indirectly linked to any other non-organic substance is not itself organic, then NO nothing can be organic. I'm not sure if a line exists there or where it is if it does exist.

..........I still need a beer.

 

[slnies]

well, if you take the approach that anything that can be directly or indirectly linked to any other non-organic substance is not itself organic, then NO nothing can be organic. I'm not sure if a line exists there or where it is if it does exist.

..........I still need a beer.

You better take care of that beer issue.

I think that you could filter out impurity in an organic sense, but organic as it is defined right now. I not sure that it exists outside of a controlled green house or lab environment. Shouldn't foods that are currently labeled organic really be labeled "Pure Mostly" It would be more accurate, wouldn't it. That was to quote a huge liberal. I have to go drink a beer now and sterilize my mouth.

 

[Buford]

Water and CO2 are inorganic compounds, try growing anything with neither available or excreted by a living organism. IF YOU USE WATER IT ISN'T "ORGANIC"!

See what I did there :fro:

 

[slnies]

Water and CO2 are inorganic compounds, try growing anything with neither available or excreted by a living organism. IF YOU USE WATER IT ISN'T "ORGANIC"!

See what I did there :fro:

But they are also naturally occurring compounds. I would also wager that naturally occurring water is not pure. As it will always contain trace elements and in some cases massive amounts of bio-organisms. CO2 by a chemists definition is organic as it contains carbon. That said, than so are all of the chemicals that we use to fertilize and debug our gardens. But, there in lies the rub. Since "organic" means carbon based. then why do we call food that is grown without the help of modern day chemistry, organic? When all of our food by definition is organic, wether we use chemicals to grow them or not. So by a chemists definition of organic than POO is it, but than so to is the bag of Miracle Grow, or that bottle of Round Up we us to make the garden a nicer place for our hops.

I do however like where you were going with that.

 

[SchizoFilly]

............again.....I'm sober during this....T-minus 2 hours until drinking can commence......


I like the idea of the in-organic water, and if you stick with that theme, there are pollutants in the air that, while naturally occurring, can be argued to exist in larger quantities due to human existence and thereby anything that has ever been in contact with the Earth's atmosphere cannot be labeled as organic.

 

[StoutFan]

What about well water? That has not come in contact with the atmosphere, till the tap. So, in an engineers vacuum, only water created from H and O, could be used? You can't raise any animal in a vacuum to produce said poo. What about an air filter?

 

[Duckfoot]

I thought this was about people discussing bowel movements....

 

[Fingers]

So if a chicken eats modified and grain poops out modified poop and is no longer considered organic, then can we consider eating chicken the same as eating whole grains in the same way we consider eating beef the same as eating vegetables?

I think I'm having another paradigm shift. It's going to be a good summer.

 

[slnies]

So if a chicken eats modified and grain poops out modified poop and is no longer considered organic, then can we consider eating chicken the same as eating whole grains in the same way we consider eating beef the same as eating vegetables?

I think I'm having another paradigm shift. It's going to be a good summer.

As far as I'm concerned, absa-frigging-lutely.

 

[slnies]

I thought this was about people discussing bowel movements....

My bowls moved, a few times last night. Dam tacos!

 

[SchizoFilly]

What about well water? That has not come in contact with the atmosphere, till the tap. So, in an engineers vacuum, only water created from H and O, could be used? You can't raise any animal in a vacuum to produce said poo. What about an air filter?

Well, no the well water would not work as possible contaminates could have leached into the ground water thereby rendering the well water contaminated or otherwise non-organic.

So if a chicken eats modified and grain poops out modified poop and is no longer considered organic, then can we consider eating chicken the same as eating whole grains in the same way we consider eating beef the same as eating vegetables?

I think I'm having another paradigm shift. It's going to be a good summer.

I think you're onto something. All of a sudden my breakfast become so much more healthy because it was full of whole grains because if a chicken is whole grain then eggs must be whole grain, and if beef is a vegetable then cheese much also be a vegetable as they are a product from the beef bearing animal. This leads to a whole other level of rationalization that I hadn't considered before. Thank You.


I think this whole discussion may have unraveled the virtues of the organic fad. Sure you can get an item that has a lower concentration of chemical treatment, but you cannot get anything that is truly 100% organic.

 

[Neunelfer]

I think you're onto something. All of a sudden my breakfast become so much more healthy because it was full of whole grains because if a chicken is whole grain then eggs must be whole grain, and if beef is a vegetable then cheese much also be a vegetable as they are a product from the beef bearing animal. This leads to a whole other level of rationalization that I hadn't considered before. Thank You.

I tried that logic on my girlfriend the other night when she complained I didn't have any vegetables with my steak. "The cow ate vegetables before he died, that's good enough for me". It didn't work.

 

[SchizoFilly]

obviously she missed this discussion about POO

 

[Buford]

CO2 by a chemists definition is organic as it contains carbon.

I was always told that CO2 was inorganic despite the carbon as it does not contain an H atom.

 

[SchizoFilly]

I was always told that CO2 was inorganic despite the carbon as it does not contain an H atom.

To get pure CO2 one would have to obtain it through unnatural means, which leads us back to it not being organic. Not that the definitions of this thread are binding, but you know, just sticking with the fuzzy logic contained within.:cross:

 

[Laurel]

So.... pooing on your hops is bad for them. There is a certain (extreme) sect of the composting "community" that compost human and pet waste, and the general consensus is that it has to be composted for AT LEAST 2 years to be safe to grow consumable crops in.

 

[SchizoFilly]

So.... pooing on your hops is bad for them.

Well in the context of this thread it seems that if you poo on your hops they would no longer be "organic". Although, I think it may have also been taken to the point that nothing could ever be organic again.

 

[slnies]

I was always told that CO2 was inorganic despite the carbon as it does not contain an H atom.

You could be right, but if you ad a H atom than you have a hydrocarbon, also organic.

 

[slnies]

Well in the context of this thread it seems that if you poo on your hops they would no longer be "organic". Although, I think it may have also been taken to the point that nothing could ever be organic again.

you are correct sur!

The point being that with the organic craze abounding in our society, we should really ask our selves how much we are willing to pay, how far we are willing to go, and how much common sense will are willing to throw out the window for a limited return on what we perceive as purity in our foods? I dislike the term organic because it deludes people and it can mean so many other things in the context of our society. I am not saying that we should use tons of chemicals, our that we shouldn't return to more sustaining agriculture, but we should call it what it is " pure mostly". When most people see the word organic they equate that to pure. That is just not true. It may be more pure, but in what sense? Chemically, genetically, what? Even a heirloom plant has seen genetic modification. This is a plant that is suppose to be genetically pure. It can't help but be modified as soon as it is planted and flowers because the bee that pollinates it was sucking down the goods from a genetically modified version down the road. The seeds of the said plant will be genetic hybreds. Is this such a bad thing? I think not. Diversity is the key to insuring survival. So than why call a method, a product, or a plant organic?

 

[Dr_Deathweed]

if your definition of "organic" is that strict, then absolutely nothing you consume is organic. EVERYTHING you eat has been "genetically modified." Cows have been bread to be bigger, produce more meat, produce more milk... Corn originally was NOTHING like what you imagine it now to be, Broccoli, cauliflower, cabbage, kale, collard greens, brussel sprouts, wild mustard are all THE SAME SPECIES that have been genetically modified to have different properties. Do you think chickens originally were as large as they are now or produce eggs as large or as consistently? No, and that is why this whole "organic" concept is a bunch of BS.

However, if you consider "organic" to be considered as free of additives, drugs, or chemicals added with the intent to promote growth or production, then feeding anything would still render a product as "non-organic" since isn't all food and water composed of chemicals fed purely for the intent of increasing growth and production? (proteins, carbohydrates, fats, starches, trace minerals, etc.)

"Organic" is a hype that if we know any better we will let die out. Most modern agricultural practices are inert to you the consumer, and are in place to increase production so that you, the consumer may eat without having to devote 50% or more of your income to food. Sure the situation here in the US is so affluent even in this "crisis recession" that we can still pay hand over fist for food that is produced by inefficient methods because it makes us feel warm and fuzzy on the inside. However, this trend is putting huge stress on the US agriculture to scale back on production, to face this trend, which is decreasing an already existent world-wide food shortage.

So next time you think about paying an extra $2 a lb of "organic chicken," instead of wondering if its poo is "organic" for your "organic" hops, think of the people that are starving because we are decreasing our ability to produce food so that you may feel better about what you eat.



[/rant]

 

[SchizoFilly]

"Organic" is a hype that if we know any better we will let die out. Most modern agricultural practices are inert to you the consumer, and are in place to increase production so that you, the consumer may eat without having to devote 50% or more of your income to food. Sure the situation here in the US is so affluent even in this "crisis recession" that we can still pay hand over fist for food that is produced by inefficient methods because it makes us feel warm and fuzzy on the inside. However, this trend is putting huge stress on the US agriculture to scale back on production, to face this trend, which is decreasing an already existent world-wide food shortage.

So next time you think about paying an extra $2 a lb of "organic chicken," instead of wondering if its poo is "organic" for your "organic" hops, think of the people that are starving because we are decreasing our ability to produce food so that you may feel better about what you eat.

[/rant]

:rockin:

I didn't mean to come off as sounding pro-organic. I agree that the whole idea is a sham and there is nothing purely organic left on this planet when broken down to a molecular level. I come from farmers and oilfield trash. They all do jobs that some view as damaging to the environment, but life would not exist as it does today without them.

Preach on man, but I think you may have missed the part about us already dismissing the possibility of anything being organic.

 

[slnies]

if your definition of "organic" is that strict, then absolutely nothing you consume is organic. EVERYTHING you eat has been "genetically modified." Cows have been bread to be bigger, produce more meat, produce more milk... Corn originally was NOTHING like what you imagine it now to be, Broccoli, cauliflower, cabbage, kale, collard greens, brussel sprouts, wild mustard are all THE SAME SPECIES that have been genetically modified to have different properties. Do you think chickens originally were as large as they are now or produce eggs as large or as consistently? No, and that is why this whole "organic" concept is a bunch of BS.

However, if you consider "organic" to be considered as free of additives, drugs, or chemicals added with the intent to promote growth or production, then feeding anything would still render a product as "non-organic" since isn't all food and water composed of chemicals fed purely for the intent of increasing growth and production? (proteins, carbohydrates, fats, starches, trace minerals, etc.)

"Organic" is a hype that if we know any better we will let die out. Most modern agricultural practices are inert to you the consumer, and are in place to increase production so that you, the consumer may eat without having to devote 50% or more of your income to food. Sure the situation here in the US is so affluent even in this "crisis recession" that we can still pay hand over fist for food that is produced by inefficient methods because it makes us feel warm and fuzzy on the inside. However, this trend is putting huge stress on the US agriculture to scale back on production, to face this trend, which is decreasing an already existent world-wide food shortage.

So next time you think about paying an extra $2 a lb of "organic chicken," instead of wondering if its poo is "organic" for your "organic" hops, think of the people that are starving because we are decreasing our ability to produce food so that you may feel better about what you eat.

View attachment 10955

[/rant]

You have hit the nail on the head. This was my exact argument to my neighbor a couple nights ago. He is into the whole organic craze and so when he saw me putting Poo on the garden he assumed that I was trying to be organic. The reality is that I am a cheap bastard and the Poo cost less to do the same thing that I would have no problem using a chemical to do if it ment that I would have more hop cones at the end of the season.

More rant

 

[Dr_Deathweed]

Sorry, I didn't mean to point anyone out or anything, and I took that rant off in a direction I did not originally intend, but by gaw, I got started and the fingers started flying!

It just irks me when people that have been off the farm for generations start dictating to those that do it for a living and are responsible for feeding the planet that they are evil people because those cows are not running around in lush green fields 365 days a year. There has been tons of research that has been done showing that stressed animals DO NOT PRODUCE (thus no profits) so many modern production practices use methods to reduce animal stress yet maintain optimal production. But no, they are still evil because they are not "organic."

I wonder how long people keep up with this "organic" or "animal rights" craze when one of the following happens: (for the record, I am anti-animal "rights", but 100% pro-animal welfare)

1)People are no longer allowed to own land and must live in high density housing because all available land must be used to produce food

2)People are no longer allowed to breed because we can't feed ourselves, let alone anyone else

3)Food costs 5-10x as much, so you can no longer buy any amenities so you can eat...

Its already started in California with prop 2.... And it will just keep spreading....

 

[slnies]

I am a proud member of PETA! That is right! People Eating Tasty Animals. Next the animal rights people will try to push birth control for wild deer populations as a viable solution to hunting. It all starts with the whole organic thing. Its like weed, its the gateway step to more liberalism. LOL.

 

[SchizoFilly]

Let's face the facts, if you don't use cows or chickens for food, then what good are they? There is no way for a farm to be profitable without growing massive quantities of a given crop, and in many cases different crops throughout the year.

That being said, with all the organic fad, what size of crops are they growing? Are they using tractors to plant and harvest? If so, then shouldn't their Earth-friendly status be revoked? Then again that would be expecting the mindless consumer buying in to a fad to think rather than get worked into an emotional froth over how politically correct they are.

2)People are no longer allowed to breed because we can't feed ourselves, let alone anyone else

does this mean no sex or just no reproduction?

 

[Mutilated1]

bananas and poo are 99% the same thing, all your body does is change the color

by the way, are you interested in getting free fertilizer for your yard and hop plants ?

Just move my name one up the list, add your name below mine and then get 10 of your friends to do the same thing and so on and so on. The person at the number one spot falls off the list.

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6. Mutilated1

After you add your name, then simply go to the house of the person at the number one spot and poo on their lawn or hop plants.

In a few short weeks, thousands of people will be pooing on your lawn. FREE FERTILIZER!

It really works.

Don't break the chain or you will have bad luck for 10 years.

 

[slnies]

bananas and poo are 99% the same thing, all your body does is change the color

by the way, are you interested in getting free fertilizer for your yard and hop plants ?

Just move my name one up the list, add your name below mine and then get 10 of your friends to do the same thing and so on and so on. The person at the number one spot falls off the list.

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6. Mutilated1

After you add your name, then simply go to the house of the person at the number one spot and poo on their lawn or hop plants.

In a few short weeks, thousands of people will be pooing on your lawn. FREE FERTILIZER!

It really works.

Don't break the chain or you will have bad luck for 10 years.

That is just wrong! Man! Just wrong!!!

 

[SchizoFilly]

That's a long drive for me to take a dump in your yard. Can I just mail it to you?

oh, and it's non-organic, for the record.

 

[TwoHeadsBrewing]

if your definition of "organic" is that strict, then absolutely nothing you consume is organic. EVERYTHING you eat has been "genetically modified." Cows have been bread to be bigger, produce more meat, produce more milk... Corn originally was NOTHING like what you imagine it now to be, Broccoli, cauliflower, cabbage, kale, collard greens, brussel sprouts, wild mustard are all THE SAME SPECIES that have been genetically modified to have different properties. Do you think chickens originally were as large as they are now or produce eggs as large or as consistently? No, and that is why this whole "organic" concept is a bunch of BS.

However, if you consider "organic" to be considered as free of additives, drugs, or chemicals added with the intent to promote growth or production, then feeding anything would still render a product as "non-organic" since isn't all food and water composed of chemicals fed purely for the intent of increasing growth and production? (proteins, carbohydrates, fats, starches, trace minerals, etc.)

"Organic" is a hype that if we know any better we will let die out. Most modern agricultural practices are inert to you the consumer, and are in place to increase production so that you, the consumer may eat without having to devote 50% or more of your income to food. Sure the situation here in the US is so affluent even in this "crisis recession" that we can still pay hand over fist for food that is produced by inefficient methods because it makes us feel warm and fuzzy on the inside. However, this trend is putting huge stress on the US agriculture to scale back on production, to face this trend, which is decreasing an already existent world-wide food shortage.

So next time you think about paying an extra $2 a lb of "organic chicken," instead of wondering if its poo is "organic" for your "organic" hops, think of the people that are starving because we are decreasing our ability to produce food so that you may feel better about what you eat.

View attachment 10955

[/rant]

While I can see your point, I disagree about the food supply. In any biological system, when you increase the food supply you increase the population. Do we really want to increase the population of the world further? Or would we rather move hungry people to areas where there is an abundance of food (like here in the USA)?